FREE 3 Blue Ultratemp boards - and a Solartouch

I got 3 Ultratemp boards in an auction lot with a Solartouch (and various Intellicenter bits that I kept)... some miscreant spray painted them blue, probably in attempt to prevent somebody else from reusing them. I've soaked other painted boards in IPA and cleaned them up, but it was tedious.

Anyway, free to anybody that wants to tinker with them... the "inside" of the 3 Ultratemp boards are paint-free, as was the solartouch (I tossed the cover). I did power up the solartouch but of course there was nothing connected to it.

pm me if interested

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Automating my spillway - Seeking Advice

Hi All,

So I've had my pool for a number of years now and one thing that has always annoyed me a little is that the spillway from my attached spa into the pool is always active when in POOL mode. I'd like to only run the spillway a fraction of the time when the pool is running (say an 1-2 hours at most) to reduce aeration as well as cutdown on the amount of evaporite and efflorescence that forms on my spa tile face. The spillway runs like this because the return flow to the POOL side is split between the three returns in the pool and the one return in the spa using a manually actuated 3-way valve. There's nothing wrong with the plumbing, per se, it's just in order to have all the water return to the pool (and shut off the spillway), I have to walk back to the equipment pad and turn the valve. Here's a picture of the return side of my plumbing -

IMG_3149_zpszlymwsiv.jpg


The actuator in the picture controls the water return for SPA Mode versus POOL mode from my EasyTouch 8 automation panel. The manual 3-way valve is what splits the POOL return water between the pool returns (3) and the spa return (1). Depending on my filter loading and pump speed, I typically split the valve 60/40 (spa/pool side) in terms of return water. That produces this picture of my spillway -

IMG_3150_zpskou6k9qq.jpg


That's more than enough return flow to the spa and, because there is just one return in the spa (separate from the spa jets), I don't want to push all the water through that single return as I have a 3HP Intelliflo and filter pressure will go really high from the head resistance. So, here's my thinking -

1. Buy another CVA-24 actuator and install it on the 3-way splitter valve;
2. Adjust the internal stops on the CVA-24 so that switch position #1 is 100% POOL return and switch position #2 is 75/25 split return to actuate spill way. I've not opened one of these actuators before but I assume there are mechanical limit switches for the position stops.
3. Attach the CVA-24 to VALVE-B inside my EasyTouch panel (I think VALVE-A is often held in reserve for Solar heating which is something that might happen in the future).
4. Program one of the EasyTouch AUX relays to actuate Spillway and then use a schedule to set the times of the day when the spillway relay will go off. Again, a little fuzzy on this part if I should program it as a AUX relay or a Feature circuit??

Any thoughts or critiques on the above would be most welcome.

Thanks,
Matt
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Another StaRite SR400NA heater Question

My control board is probably toast, thanks to mice. Repaired the partially chewed wire under the control membrane pad, prior to which I was getting LED lighting. Now, no LED lite. Fuses are good, I tried jumping the fireman’s switch, and the pad seems fine . . . and voltage readings from the transformer are good. I believe power is getting to the board as my proximity tester lights up when I place it next to the control boards two 24VAC pins that I assume would rule out lack of pwr to the board (admittedly not optimal diagnostics).

I’ve read in prior posts that LEDs won’t lite if there is no call for power, so am wondering if that is my issue (likely not). My question is: when pressing the Heater button on my PS2 panel, the pool/spa valve doesn’t turn like it normally would, so could this possibly indicate there is no call for heat coming from the PS2 (wiring from which to the heater have continuity and are secure in the PS2 bar). FWIW, the red diagnostic lite doesn’t lite/flash. Zilch.

The board is 14+ years old, and it was working 6 months ago, so am not holding out much hope. How I found the problem in the first place is that the heater fired up by itself one morning along with the LED flickering. BTW, I did mice proof it years ago (wire mesh at every possible opening), evidently, there was a breach or spot I missed.

To mice in my area: challenge accepted. Full and possible lethal counter measures will be implemented. Appropriation of defense funding submitted to wife and awaiting final approval.

Got CYA?

Spring is typically the time of year I need to top off my CYA. So I set up a repeating calendar event to ping me on the first Monday of February, each year, to check my supply of CYA. I happen to be low this time, so I just ordered some more. I set the date a bit early, just in case CYA happens to be in low supply. Gives me a month or so to find some.

How's your supply?

Speaking of reoccurring calendar events, I just recently added a weekly one to test my pool light's GFCI outlet. I don't regularly test any GFCI component, and never have. Just one of those things I don't think about (but should, of course). Following the advice I gave someone else here, if there's one to test regularly, it's the pool GFCI! So now I do. It's now part of my regular weekly maintenance, and considering the outlet is inches from the other things I use during my maintenance routine, and the fact that it takes seconds to test, it's pretty silly not to...

FREE Hayward Aqualogic boards - unknown condition

I found a box with two Hayward Aqualogic boards (GLX-PCB-MAIN)... Free to anybody who can use them. I don't know if they work, but if they don't I'm sure they can be repaired... I'm never going to use them, they're taking up space, and I don't want to throw them away. Somebody here must be into Aqualogics!

I suspect one board may actually be good, and the other has the traditional burn mark at the relay. But I don't have a way to test them (my pool is Pentair). Anyway, check out the photos, pm me with any questions

This is the suspected good board (it doesn't appear to have ever been installed):
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This is the suspected bad board (note the typical relay burn mark):
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These are, well, self explanatory ;)
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18 x 33 x 56" Semi-In Ground NJ

Good morning all,

SOUTHERN NJ HERE. So I made the mistake of asking on a facebook group and that was more useless than anything, few good points made but other than that is was the people bashing what I want to do 😂. Have been trying to get quotes for about a month for a May installation and due to their communication and info they provide I really liked Niagra Pools & Spas in Turnersville NJ. The 3 others I contacted either never contacted me back or once they did it was like phone tag to get ahold of them, not something I want to deal with during installation! Pricing from Niagra Pool quote are below, this is semi-in ground approximately 30":

$17,595 -Pool Package: 18' x 33' x 56" Sharkline* Oasis EAW (Extruded Aluminum Wall) pool, Liner, 1.5hp 120v variable speed pump and filter, skimmer, 1 return port, cover, and maintenance/cleaning kit
$1,100 - Salt chlorinator system w/salt
$350 - Wedding cake steps
$200 - Wall foam
$2,900 - Pool Installation
$22,145 total cost for pool

Site Work Quote:
$5,000 - Excavation and haul away of soil in addition to about 5 yards of fill that's in a pile at our property
$3,200 - Backfill of pool using excavated soil: will need to be moved by hand due to space

If your anything like me you probably pooped a bit with the number for site work lol, I will say the guy that came out to do a site visit told me moving dirt is expensive, not bashing them at all, labor aint cheap!! Highly considering doing the site work myself, pool guy told me that isn't an issue with any of their warranties and they will come out to check when it's done for right depth/level. Sunbelt was under $3,000 for a week rental of a 6 ton mini excavator, 7 yard Dump, and ground protection pads. Don't think it will take a week but quote that for worst case. Before anyone says it, I know this is around 70 yards of dirt, I know it's not easy, and as far as operating I dug the foundation for my garage (blue building in the pic) and my patio by myself for the most part, I'm no expert but I can operate, I own a transit and a laser level; just getting all that out there because that's what everyone wanted to comment on with the FB post 😒🤣.

With all that being said I had a few questions for additions and backfill

Backfill:
-Sandy soil in my area, good to just use what comes out of the hole for backfill?
-Recommend any barrier between ground and exterior of pool wall?
-Was also thinking pavers OR rubber mulch/river rock/pebbles 24" around pool

Install/Pool Add-ons:
-Liner pad OR Perlite on top of sand base
-Foam coving
-Additional return jet on far wall
-Hard pipe everything (would be extra for pool Co. to do
-Larger pump? is a 1.5hp good enough for 20k gallons?

Anything else that you would recommend is appreciated. We aren't rich but we aren't broke either lol. We are kind of doing the bare minimum for it this year with a small exterior entry step with plans of doing landscaping, lighting, larger entry deck/step, and some other add-ons NEXT season or winter since we are already doing some fencing this year during the install.

Thank you for the help! Site pics are attached, sorry they are crappy I was outside last night marking. And the yard will be spotless prior to starting! Have to move the wood pile and purge some 💩 out to the curb! Also, setbacks are correct and marked on the pics along with the pool shape. Out township requires 6' from p[roperty lines and we have a 20' utility easement on the far side.

Site 1.jpgSite 2.jpgSite 3.jpgSite 4.jpgSite 6.jpgSite 7.jpg
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Cost Comparison of Chlorine Sources

I originally posted the following on another forum (I thought I also posted it here, but can't find it).

First, I describe exactly what is in chlorinating liquid and bleach as far as we know. I'll use 12.5% chlorinating liquid as an example. This link is a typical example. Though they do not list the amount of salt (since it doesn't affect the lifetime of the chlorine), this is known to be equivalent to the amount of chlorine due to the way it is manufactured (by adding chlorine gas to a solution of lye). The "12.5%" chlorinating liquid is a "trade %" which is not the same as a weight percentage and is why that's a different number below. Also, the salt and chlorine are in the same quantity in terms of numbers of molecules, but these molecules differ in weight which is why the percentages of chlorine and salt differ below.
Code:
Chlorine (sodium hypochlorite)   11.3%  (10.8% weight % of available chlorine; 12.5% volume % of available chlorine aka Trade %)
Lye (sodium hydroxide)            0.3%
Salt (sodium chloride)            8.9%
Water                            79.5%

Now let's look at the ingredients in Lithium Hypochlorite where I'll use this link for Burn Out 35 as an example.
Code:
Chlorine (lithium hypochlorite)   29%  (35.2% weight % available chlorine)
Sodium Sulfate                    13%
Postassium Sulfate                 6%
Lithium Chloride                   4%
Lithium Carbonate                  2%
Lithium Chlorate                   2%
Lithium Hydroxide                  1%
Salt (sodium chloride)            36%
Water                              7%
It looks like Lithium Hypochlorite contains extra salt, just like Sodium Hypochlorite. It's about the same in molecular quantity as chlorine so I suspect that the process of making Lithium Hypochlorite is injecting chlorine gas into a solution of lithium hydroxide (a form of lye, but with lithium instead of sodium). This is also not as pure as chlorinating liquid or bleach with regard to chlorates and especially sulfate. Cal-Hypo also contains salt, but not as much as other sources. Only Trichlor and Dichlor don't add salt, though they add CYA.

The following table compares the weight % of available chlorine for different sources of chlorine in ascending order. I also show what else it adds for every 1 ppm Free Chlorine (FC):
Code:
5.25% Bleach               5.0%  (also adds 0.82 ppm extra salt)
6.0% Bleach                5.7%  (also adds 0.82 ppm extra salt)
10.0% Chlorinating Liquid  8.8%  (also adds 0.82 ppm extra salt)
12.5% Chlorinating Liquid 10.8%  (also adds 0.82 ppm extra salt)
Lithium Hypochlorite      35.2%  (also adds 0.76 ppm extra salt)
48% Cal-Hypo              47.6%  (also adds 0.71 ppm Calcium Hardness, CH; 0.2 ppm extra salt?)
Dichlor Dihydrate         55.4%  (also adds 0.91 ppm Cyanruic Acid, CYA)
Dichlor Anhydrous         64.5%  (also adds 0.91 ppm Cyanruic Acid, CYA)
65% Cal-Hypo              64.5%  (also adds 0.71 ppm Calcium Hardness, CH; 0.2 ppm extra salt)
73% Cal-Hypo              72.4%  (also adds 0.71 ppm Calcium Hardness, CH; 0.2 ppm extra salt)
Trichlor Tabs/Pucks       91.5%  (also adds 0.61 ppm Cyanuric Acid, CYA)
Chlorine Gas             100.0%
So just looking at the above list one might think that chlorine gas is best, but it's very toxic and dangerous to handle. So what about Trichlor? It contains more chlorine by weight than almost any other product. But it also adds to CYA which does not make it bad, but it does mean you are adding two chemicals to your pool every time you use it and therefore need to account for that. Same with Cal-Hypo that also adds calcium. Chlorinating liquid adds extra salt (I say "extra" because all of the above chlorine will get converted to chloride ion, salt, when it gets used), but salt does not affect chlorine effectiveness (as CYA does) nor calcium carbonate saturation (as Cal-Hypo does). These are not bad -- they are just chemical mixtures and are not just chlorine.

So if one were choosing chlorine solely on the basis of carrying the least amount of weight home from the pool store, then Trichlor would be the choice (chlorine gas would have to be in heavy tanks). But people do not normally choose solely by weight. I looked at the Leslie's website to get prices for as many of the items as I could and this is what I found (prices are before tax):

Trichlor Tabs/Pucks (3") ... $77 for 35 pounds so that's $2.20 per pound
Dichlor ... $104 for 40 pounds so that's $2.60 per pound
73% Cal-Hypo ... $120 for 50 pounds so that's $2.40 per pound
Lithium Hypochlorite ... $150 for 25 pounds so that's $6.00 per pound (from this website since Leslie's doesn't carry it online as far as I could tell)
12.5% Chlorinating Liquid ... $3.25 for 1 gallon from my local pool store (9.7 pounds -- product is 16% denser than water) so that's $0.336 per pound
6% Bleach ... $1 for 96 ounces (6.75 pounds -- product is 8% denser than water and 96/128th of a gallon) so that's $0.15 per pound

Notice how much less expensive per pound the chlorinating liquid is. It had better be because most of it is water, so what we really need to see is the cost per available chlorine and that is as follows:

Trichlor Tabs/Pucks ......... $2.20 / 0.915 = $2.40 but $3.83 when accounting for Washing Soda to adjust pH
Dichlor .......................... $2.60 / 0.554 = $4.70 but $5.73 when accounting for Washing Soda to adjust pH
73% Cal-Hypo ................ $2.40 / 0.724 = $3.31
Lithium Hypochlorite ....... $6.00 / 0.352 = $17.05
12.5% Chlorinating Liquid . $0.336 / 0.108 = $3.11
6% Bleach ..................... $0.15 / 0.057 = $2.63

The above cost is for the same amount of chlorine. That is, if you added the amount of each product required to raise the FC by the same amount for all of these products, then the above shows the relative costs (the costs above are for amounts that would raise the FC by 12 ppm in 10,000 gallons). You can see that Trichlor and bleach are roughly comparable in cost [EDIT] if ignoring chemicals needed to adjust for pH [END-EDIT] while Cal-Hypo and chlorinating liquid is a little more expensive and Dichlor a little more expensive than that. Lithium is much, much more expensive. Not just twice as much (as with Dichlor vs. Trichlor), but over 7 times as expensive as Trichlor.

[EDIT]
The above did not account for the fact that the various chlorine sources vary in their effects on pH and need compensating chemicals. If we assume that a pool is balanced at an appropriate TA so that there is minimal rise in pH over time from the outgassing of carbon dioxide, then the hypochlorite sources of chlorine are essentially pH neutral and the above prices are correct as is. On the other hand, Trichlor and Dichlor need to be adjusted. For the above amounts to raise the FC by 12 ppm in 10,000 gallons, Trichlor needs 57.8 ounces weight of Borax to compensate for the acidity of chlorine addition and consumption. Dichlor (dihydrate) needs 41.3 ounces weight of Borax. Amazon.com sells 20 Mule Team Borax for $4 for one box (76 ounces), so this adds $3.04 to the price of Trichlor and $2.17 to the price of Dichlor.

If one uses Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda instead of Borax for raising the pH, then it takes 29.2 ounces weight for Trichlor and it takes 20.9 ounces weight for Dichlor. Amazon.com sells Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda for $2.70 for 55 ounces (shipping is high, but some grocery stores had it for this price as well), so this adds $1.43 to the price of Trichlor and $1.03 to the price of Dichlor. Note how much more economical Washing Soda is compared to Borax, but remember that it increases TA twice as much as Borax for the same pH rise. If a pool has sufficient aeration, then a balance can be obtained.

Another alternative for raising pH and similar to Borax in not raising the TA as much is Lye (Caustic Soda) which can be obtained for around $3 per pound. For the amounts as indicated above, Trichlor needs 11.8 ounces while Dichlor needs 8.5 ounces, so this adds $2.21 to the price of Trichlor and $1.59 to the price of Dichlor. So this is less expensive than Borax, but more expensive than Super Washing Soda.
[END-EDIT]

Richard
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We Have a Winner! TFP Pool of the Month (February 2025); "The Nerve Center" - Equipment Pads

So easy! Post ONE pic related to the theme title above. I bet you have a good pic saved somewhere. See the contest rules below to enter.

PLEASE READ OUR (UPDATED) RULES BEFORE POSTING! ----> TFP Pool of the Month Contest Rules

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Photo contests are announced on the first of each month. There is a 5-day submission phase. Days 6 & 7 are for voting. Winner announced on day 8. Winner eligible for a $50 prize.

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It's easy! What have you got to lose? You might receive a $50 discount code from TFtestkits.net.

Click Here to See Some Previous TFP Monthly Contest Winners

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Help diagnosing Jandy LXI heater, Ignition fault error, Fenwal air flow fault with single blink red LED

Hello, I hope there's a heater expert that can help me here!

I'm trying to diagnose a customer's Jandy LXI pool/spa heater. Customer says the heater doesn't work. On visual inspection, the heater is in good repair, minor wear on the outside of the unit. Wiring and plumbing are clean and leak free. The heater is wired for automation into a Hayward ecom4 and was set for remote thermostat, but for testing purposes I have disabled it and am operating it manually. On the heater, spa mode is selected and the temp is set to its max 104F.

Visual inspection of the heater from the inside is like new, with minor oxidation and some bug carcasses/leaf debris. Wiring and hoses are clean and free of damage. Board is clean and shows no damage. Gas valve has white oxidation on the outside, peculiarly more than anything else in the unit.

When starting the variable speed main pump and letting it rev up to operating RPM of around 2600, the heater kicks on. The heater blower starts up. After a few minutes, the heater shuts off with the "Ignition failure fault" error. I confirmed the gas valve on the external pipe is parallel and the knob inside the unit on the valve is set to on. I confirmed the igniter is in like new repair. The Fenwal blinks with a red LED one time, indicating an air flow fault.

I tested continuity on the air flow switch by placing probes on the leads going into the switch, then blowing into the tubes attached to it. When blowing into the tube from the burner pipe enclosure, I had continuity. When blowing into the tube from the side, there was no continuity.

I never smelled any gas in the entirety of testing. I tested with the external gas valve in both positions, and never smelled anything, however I checked the gas meter when it was in the open position and the meter was moving.

I don't know what else to test, I'm hoping one of you with more experience can help point me in the right direction.

If you need photos or additional info, let me know.

Thank you!

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pH Buffer Capacity

The following gives a rough idea of pH buffering strength with 50 ppm Borates vs. 80 ppm CYA vs. 70 ppm carbonate alkalinity where the strength is buffer capacity in millimoles/liter/pH (that is, the amount of acid per volume needed to move the pH by one unit, but in an infinitesimal sense). I also list the effect of 50 ppm Borates and 80 ppm CYA on TA.

.................................................... 50 ppm ............... 80 ppm ................ 70 ppm
pH .... Borate_TA ... CYA_TA ... Borate Strength ... CYA Strength ... Carbonates Strength ... CYA+Carbonates ... CYA+Carbonates+Borate
7.0 ......... 1.7 ........... 18.8 ............. 0.08 .................... 0.32 ....................... 0.51 ......................... 0.83 ............................. 0.91
7.1 ......... 2.2 ........... 20.3 ............. 0.10 .................... 0.30 ....................... 0.41 ......................... 0.71 ............................. 0.81
7.2 ......... 2.7 ........... 21.6 ............. 0.12 .................... 0.28 ....................... 0.34 ......................... 0.62 ............................. 0.74
7.3 ......... 3.3 ........... 22.9 ............. 0.15 .................... 0.25 ....................... 0.27 ......................... 0.52 ............................. 0.67
7.4 ......... 4.1 ........... 23.9 ............. 0.19 .................... 0.22 ....................... 0.23 ......................... 0.45 ............................. 0.64
7.5 ......... 5.2 ........... 24.9 ............. 0.23 .................... 0.20 ....................... 0.18 ......................... 0.38 ............................. 0.61
7.6 ......... 6.5 ........... 25.6 ............. 0.29 .................... 0.17 ....................... 0.15 ......................... 0.32 ............................. 0.61
7.7 ......... 8.1 ........... 26.3 ............. 0.36 .................... 0.14 ....................... 0.13 ......................... 0.27 ............................. 0.63
7.8 ....... 10.0 ........... 26.8 ............. 0.44 .................... 0.12 ....................... 0.11 ......................... 0.23 ............................. 0.67
7.9 ....... 12.5 ........... 27.2 ............. 0.54 .................... 0.10 ....................... 0.09 ......................... 0.19 ............................. 0.73
8.0 ....... 15.5 ........... 27.6 ............. 0.67 .................... 0.09 ....................... 0.08 ......................... 0.17 ............................. 0.84

You can see not only how 50 ppm Borates increases pH buffering overall, but is a nice complement to the carbonates and CYA pH buffering and provides stronger buffering as the pH rises. So basically you have the carbonates and CYA preventing the pH from quickly dropping too much while you have the borates preventing it from quickly rising too much. Additional info is in this post.

The peak pH buffering occurs when the pH is at the pKa of the weak acid and its conjugate base so for carbonic acid / bicarbonate this is at pH 6.3, for bicarbonate / carbonate this is at pH 10.2 while for H3CY/H2CY- this is at pH 6.8, for H2CY-/HCY2- this is at pH 11.3, for HCY2-/CY3- this is at pH 13.3, for boric acid / borate ion this is at pH 9.1.

As noted in this link, the buffer capacity can be calculated from the formula ln(10)*Cbuf*Ka*[H+]/(Ka+[H+])2 and the amount of acid or base needed to change the pH by a specific amount can be calculated by the difference in Cbuf*Ka/(Ka+[H+]) at two different pH values and summing these differences for all of the buffer species. Calculating the effect on pH when acid or base is added when multiple buffer species are present requires iteration since the inverse formula cannot be solved in closed form.
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Looking to upgrade to Intellicenter and SWG,

New pool owner here. We opened our pool around May of this year. Unfortunately, I was very poorly educated prior to the build. I didn't understand SWGs, automation, and the like. Our builder, as a result of my ignorance, built am a very nice basic pool. Not his fault at all. After a few months on TFP and a summer of education on TFP and adding chlorine, I realize I probably would like an SWG system, and I might as well upgrade to automation at the same time. My builder is capable of the install, and indicated he would sell equipment at his cost, but he is unable to "educate me regarding options and possibilities" due to language limitations between us! He is a great guy, but his English is limited and my Spanish is nonexistant. I have an Intelliflow VS pump and Jandy lights with no automation. I am running the pump per internal programming. We are not heavy pool users, but thought that if I am upgrading, I should at least plan for future possibilities. I may as well plan for App controlled spa and temperature management at this time. I assume automated valves would be needed for app control. Is the Intellicenter and Pentair SWG most appropriate? I'd appreciate thoughts and input.
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TFP Intro - SoCal - New Build

Hi TFP Community. Family just embarked on our pool build. Shotcrete was completed last week.

5 years ago, never thought I’d own a pool. EVER.

Wife and son changed my mind and now we are looking forward to this pool-side lifestyle. We live in Southern California, inland dessert region, so the pool will be year-round thing for us.

Here’s a few pics of current construction. Trying to decide on the following. If anyone has input, feel free to add. Been searching the forum

Pool Type: Saltwater 16x32, with integrated 8x8 spa, max 6’ deep

Plaster: NPT Stonescape Mini - Will this be to rough? Haven’t been in a pool with one before and our pool builder, very reputable, recommended it as a sweet spot between aesthetic and longevity, but we’ve had multiple people reference mini pebble being too rough.

Plaster Color: We like Stonescape Black Mini. Dark green in deeper end, with lagoon vibe is appealing to us. Some concerns on it holding too much heat in summer (no chiller pump) but leaning towards not caring because it looks so good.


Decking: Brushed v. Salt Rock Concrete. My wife likes salt rock. I’m indifferent, but don’t want it to look bad. We don’t want to spend a ton and want something that will last, look clean, but not too industrial. A couple threads on issues with the cold and water freezing in the indents of salt rock finish, but not a concern in Southern California. Any recommendations for or against Salt Rock?

Umbrella Sleeves: Plan is to do 5 total. One is already installed on the Baja shelf. Other will be on deck placed where they should help with sun. Used an app to check sun angles through the year, so hopping we do best we can with placement. The design drawing attached details the locations - black dots. Any input on others choice/regrets/positives on where they installed their sleeves?

Gate: Pool builder quoted for wrought iron. We love hog wire/box wire for more of a rustic/country vibe. We need to meet city code, but wondering if anyone has had success with hog wire/box wire install?

Anyway, I’ll be scouring TFP for more info to catch up on the dos and don’ts. Thanks in advance!

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Yesterday was my last DE change

I purchased a pool vacuum maybe 4 years ago. I read, I think on here, that DE lasted YEARS.....YEARS. Well, my pump would not prime properly and the pool was not as clear as normal.

1. I changed janty valve o-rings and found the supply side valve was one o-ring short. The pool pump installation company did the first job. I have been prime issues for a while.

2. It still would not totally prime after the o-ring change. I decided to clean it. I'm not weak but could barely lift the filter out of the housing. It was way over time.

I cleaned it, reassembled, no issues, and it totally primed in less than 30 seconds.

I'm going to a cartridge filter when it's time to clean it again.

I just can't deal with DE, and longer.

Thanks for listening to my venting.
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Help Improve Robot vacuums

Recently, a member reached out to us with a request to conduct interviews with pool owners about their experiences and suggestions for improving pool cleaners. Some of you may have seen his original thread, and you might also remember that this isn’t the first time he’s come to TFP for help. A few years ago, he conducted similar research with the community, and the insights you shared made a big impact.

We’d love for a handful of users to once again participate in this project. Not only will you receive a $50 Amazon e-gift card for your time, but you’ll also get the opportunity to share your unfiltered thoughts—whether you want to praise your cleaner or vent about those stinking robots that always seem to break!

Here’s what they’re looking for:
  • Current pool owners who’ve had their pool for at least 6 months
  • Owners of in-ground pools
  • People who clean their own pool
  • Those who own a robotic or pressure-side cleaner (no current suction cleaner owners, sorry!)
  • Residents of the continental US

What’s involved?
• A 30-minute phone interview at a time that works for you.

How to participate:

• Use this link to schedule your interview and provide your preferred phone number:

Pool Cleaning Interview - Thomas Davenport

• Prefer email? Reach out directly to: [email protected]

We’re excited to help facilitate this research again and hope some of you will take part. Not only is this a chance to share your experiences, but it’s also a way to help shape future pool cleaning innovations.

Thanks as always for being such a great part of the TFP

REPAIRED! - Hayward GLX-PCB-MAIN

For the 4th time in 12 years, the main control board on my Hayward pool system went out (the board is Hayward GLX-PCB-MAIN). Each time the board lasts 2.5 - 3 years so it is out of warranty. Each time the symptoms have been the clock not keeping time and as a result, the pool cycle starts at a different real time each day. I have to say that I am very, very disappointed that Hayward can't make the board last longer than this, and I'm also disappointed that if you call them and tell them the symptoms they tell you the board is bad and you need a new one. But I digress...

The first 3 times this happened I bought a replacement board on Amazon and saved several hundred dollars compared to having a pool repairman do it. I was going to buy another replacement board again, but when I went to Amazon the price had escalated to about $450 (I think the first replacement was about $280) so I decided to see if it was possible to repair the board. I found this thread on TFP at Aqualogic Losing Time? which had a repair detailed in it. I am posting this thread so it is easier to find the information.

The repair comes down to de-soldering / removing, then replacing / re-soldering 1 capacitor (C3) and 1 real-time clock chip (U2) on the board. Between the 2 electronic parts, the total cost was about $10. The parts were found as listed in the other thread at Digikey.com:
1) The capacitor C3 is DigiKey part # 283-2814-ND (manufacturer part # KR-5R5V334-R)
2) The real-time clock US is Digi-Key part #DS1302Z+CT-ND (manufacturer part #DS1302Z+T&R)

A few comments about the actual repair:
a) NOTE that both the capacitor and the clock chip ARE POLARIZED, meaning there is a positive side and a negative side and only ONE WAY to properly mount them! You need to look at the old components BEFORE you remove them to be sure you know which way the new components go back on the board. TAKE PHOTOS before you start so you can check to make sure you are doing it right! Also, the polarity markings on the components were NOT simple + or - symbols. Check before you start how your components are marked and what the markings mean!
b) The capacitor C3 is mounted through the board; this is the type of mounting and soldering I learned 40-some years ago. However, the clock chip U2 is surface-mount soldered and I had no experience with it. However, I do have a son-in-law who is an Electrical Engineer and who is experienced with surface-mount soldering so I ordered the parts along with a new soldering iron with temperature control and small 3mm tips, a board clamp to hold it, and thin 3mm solder.
c) After removing the control board from the panel I could see the capacitor C3 was blown. So I replaced it first and checked to see if it solved the issue - unfortunately it did not. On to the clock chip.
d) Watching my son-in-law doing the U3 chip, the main lesson was to patiently heat the solder connection of each of the chip's 8 pins carefully. He worked on one side at a time, and did not leave the soldering iron tip on any pin solder joint more than a couple of seconds. He was moving down the line and back over and over until all 4 pins on the side came free, then he repeated on the other side so the bad chip was removed. His goal was to reuse the existing solder for the new chip so he didn't create any shorts between the pins with a blob of solder. He held the new chip in place with tweezers and got 2 pins to hold with the existing solder on the board, again never holding the soldering iron on a pin for more than a couple of seconds. Once the first 2 pins were held he worked through getting the other 6 to be held by the solder. At that point he looked through a magnifying glass and decided one of the solder joints needed a touch more solder, and he carefully added a tiny amount.
e) Once complete, I put the board back in the panel. Note that the time will need to be set, when the clock chip powers up it will be at midnight. If you have your pump cycle running at midnight, as soon as you power up the system will start the pumps if everything is working. My recommendation is to change the program so it isn't running at midnight before starting the repair so everything powers up without immediately turning on pumps etc.
f) Once the board was in and powered up I checked that I could turn pumps, cleaner, lights etc on and off, and all worked great. I then set the time on the system to match my iPhone. 3 weeks since the repair and the system has not lost any time, it matches my iPhone perfectly.
g) A minor point, the board clamp that I bought was a cheap one and close to useless as the board has some weight and would slip in the clamp unless perfectly horizontal. If I did it over I would find a better one that would properly hold this board.

Bottom line: I saved a ton of money by spending 45 minutes replacing the 2 bad components and repairing my board. I definitely recommend to anyone to try it yourself before buying an expensive replacement board, especially if you have a friend or relative with surface-mount soldering experience.

Cold front coming = Frozen chemicals

I see the local forecast for this week is for a bunch of 3F - 4F mornings, and at least a few days with highs in the teens. So a reminder to those in the northeast... check your chemical storage!

I know 31% Muriatic won't freeze above -80F, but I think 10% Chlorine is only good down to +19F. Between ground sinking and solar gain, plus a little insulative factor of its own, it's likely my little closed storage box doesn't ever hit 19F most of the winter. But at 3F - 19F for two straight days, I suspect it likley will, so I'll be checking in there this afternoon to remember if there's any liquid chlorine left from last season... and move it indoors if there is.

Moreover, some of the other algicides and miscellaneous might not have well-published freezing points. Those will likely come indoors this week, as well. I hate storing chemicals in the garage long-term, but I don't mind doing it for the few coldest weeks of the winter.
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New Pool Build - NE OK - Beginning from scratch and looking for design feedback.

Hello TFP!

We built our dream/forever home about 1.5 years ago and now the wife feels it is time to add the pool of the family's dreams. A co-worker pointed me towards TFP as a tool to learn as well as engage for layout and design guidance.

A bit of background:
We live on a large acreage outside of town. We have three children ages 4, 7, and 10 along with a couple of larger breed dogs. This is legit the house and propery of our dreams and we have zero intention of moving. She has never had a pool. I grew up with a 30' inground pool my parents stil have to this day ~23 years. Growing up all of the friends always ended up at our house play games in the single level above ground pool rather than hanging out at diving pools at their own houses. The goal is for our house to be the destination for the kids' friend groups so we know where they are and know the friends. We also have a standalone spa/hot tub we would like to integrate into the final deck layout. We have spent quite a bit of time already meeting with a few different builder and looking into the different types of pools (fiberglass, gunite and vinyl) and are looking for the most durable balanced with the simplest care.​

The site details:
The home and pool site are on a slight hilltop. There is approximately 6-8' of elevation drop from the porch level (pool deck level) to the anticipated far side of the pool. The ground is clay for the first 6-12" with a quick transition to shale; no large rocks. I have a shop located about 100' away and about 12' below the deck level of the poolsite. The pool will be on the south side of the home with little shade from the house until late in the evening. There are no trees near the pool area.​

With the background now out there, this is generally where we have landed as far as a wish/spec list goes:
  • Gunite Construction (I like the idea of fiberglass but can't seem to find a good sport bottom design)
  • Sport/single depth bottom
  • 54" water depth single level
  • Roughly 16'x32' dimension rectangular pool
  • Baja/Tanning ledge is a negotiable wish depending upon feedback and cost - looking at a 5'x10' area
  • Seating/communal area for chatting while the kids are playing
  • Easy entry/play and exit for young children
  • Volleyball and Basketball are a must!
  • Heating is not extremely important, but the idea of cooling is very important to me. Many folks around here are running chiller/heat pump combos and something I would like to add.
  • Integration of the spa on the pool deck
  • Good integration with the covered porch and balcony
  • No walls or features that will block out view of the property

Things we are not too sure on:
  • Equipment Spec - brand, size, automation, must haves etc
  • Equipment Location - Does it matter if the equipment is next to our A/C units? How far is too far? What can we build to hide the equipment? Can I build a vault on the low side of the pool to house the equipment? I have a shop about 100' away and about 12' down a hill. I can install the equipment next to this shop as well. I have plenty of available space in the shop load center for power.
  • Entry stair location and design
  • Balcony stair location - spiral vs typical stairwell? Spiral give the least impact to the view from the house but are more difficult to navigate.
  • Water features - I like to keep it simple but the wife likes the idea of a feature. We would like to hear any guidance, preferences or horror stories on this front. We do live on a secluded property and do not need to drown out any traffic or city noise.
  • Pool lighting? Open book, I have never had a pool with a light.
  • Coping and decking recommendations/warning? Best bang for the buck?
  • What should we plan for in the landscaping such as lighting, speakets and such?
  • Do we need to do any planning for shade?
  • What should I plan for umbrellas/volleyball basketball?
  • If we cut the baja/tanning deck is an automatic cover worth the price?
  • What is the best security fence design?
  • Are these upgraded plaster types worth the hype?

We have found a pool builder we seem to enjoy and vibe with. He is also a home builder and does a great job at seeing the overall vision with the skills to tie it all together as we add quite a bit of decking and add the balcony stairs into the overall plan. He knows out budget. He has provided some renderings from our discussion but not the overall cost and equipment list at this point.

I have added the photos of the house as is today and the renderings. I look forward to any feedback, guidance or warnings! Please let me know if you have any questions or clarification requirements to provide the best information.

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💥 Say Goodbye to Frozen Worries: How My $50 Pond De-Icer Dominated the Cold!

I live in Oklahoma City, OK, and I’m committed to keeping my pool running year-round. A few years ago, a brutal hard freeze left me with pool-related PTSD—nights of 2 a.m. skimmer basket checks to stop ice from forming, all while temperatures dipped below 15°F for an entire week. Despite freeze protect, one of the underground lines froze over two feet deep and burst, lifting a concrete section of my pool deck over 8 inches. The repair bill? Painful, to say the least.
Since then, I’ve done everything to protect my pool: covering equipment with a heavy-duty tarp, using heat lamps—you name it. But the stress lingered. That’s until this year, when I stumbled upon a 1250-watt pond de-icer. It’s a game-changer. I placed it in the pool right at the entrance to my skimmer, using a sandbag to hold it steady about three-quarters of the way down its cord.

The results? Incredible. Over the past week, with snow and sub 15°F temperatures, my pool has stayed completely ice-free. Not a single shard of ice! This de-icer, rated for just 300-gallon tanks, somehow kept my 15,000-gallon pool at 39°F. It’s like magic.

Now, I can travel without worrying, and my wife can relax knowing the pool is safe. For $50, this little device is an absolute lifesaver—and I’m kicking myself for not finding it sooner.

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Owner Build - Arizona: Shotcrete complete

Update 4/27/20222:
Finally decided on design and pool equipment. Submitted for Permit and it is now approved.

Working through getting bids and scheduling trades. Thank you to all that has helped so far.

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Pool Equipment:
Pump: Pentair 3hp VSF 11056
Filter: Pentair 520 sq ft cartidge filter
Salt Water: Salt system- IC60
Heater: 400 Nat Max E Therm Black
Automation: INTELLICENTER I8PS POOL/SPA CONTROL
Lights: Pentair Microbrite (1 on baja step, 2 in pool, 1 in spa)
Autofill: MP Auto Fill Leveler
SILENCER BLOWER 1.5 HP, 220VOLT



Original:
I am new to this group but I have found so much useful information. I am still reading through all the important details of pool construction and additional reading for various sections so still lot for me to learn.

I am going to go owner build route in hopes to get my pool completed in time for the hot summer here in Arizona. I have been working with a consultant that will get all the required plans and engineering docuemnts for permit and contractors.

I do not have the list of all the proposed equipment since I have not decided on the final design but here is the first draft of the design. Are there any design issues that stick out on the intial design? Any feedback is appreciated and I will continue to update everyone I move along this journey.

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Getting rid of "Service Factor" for motors.

Does service factor have any value?

In my opinion, it has no value. In fact, I think that it only causes problems and confusion.

The only number that really matters is the Total HP of the motor.

Motor makers make two identical motors and label one as 1 hp with a 1.65 service factor and the other as 1.5 with a 1.1 SF. Both have 1.65 total hp.

Then, pump makers do the same thing with pumps. They make a full rated pump and a max rated pump that are identical.

This creates inefficiency in the supply chain by making distributors and retailers carry more total inventory.

This also creates confusion for people who buy pumps and motors.

In my opinion, it's time to end service factor and only rate motors and pumps by total hp.
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Purged my whirlpool bath today

We hadn't used the jetted tub in a year or two when the Mrs asked recently if she could, and I promptly cringed. Lemme clean it first and then I'll keep it purged if it keeps being used.

I got a bunch of gunk out and the ahhsome lived up to its name yet again. I was kinda surprised there weren't any big chunks but also happy I didn't have to fish out said big chunks. :ROFLMAO:


The 1st round started to loosen the crud, and then 4 more rounds to blow clean foam.


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Got cocky and paid the price

I guess I'd been in denial for the last week-10 days. The pool looked "off" and lacked sparkle. I knew it but kinda made up excuses in my mind. I had a swim last night with the pool lights on and that snapped me out of it. Floaties and ick were undeniable.

10 hours into SLAM number 1, 13.5L chlorine so far...
Pool has cleared up significantly already but I'll be staying the course and following the process through to conclusion.

Yesterday the cloudiness from the light was so thick and I could even see blobs of stuff 🤢

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Dragged my son out to have a look tonight at the change in clarity and he said he just thought our pool had finally gotten old enough to go "like everyone else's pool" 😱

Pump motor humming and not starting with new capacitor

I’ve searched and have read several threads with what appears to be the same issue. I’ve tried everything I’ve seen suggested but no luck. Here’s what I’ve done...

- new start capacitor
- spun the impeller from the motor side using a screwdriver
- spun the impeller from the strainer basket side with my finger, it seems to spin fine
- tried tapping the motor with a hammer while humming

Any last minute suggestions before I have the motor replaced tomorrow?
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Peracetic acid as supplemental sanitiser/disinfectant for pool?

Hi folks,

I know everyone here says to 'just use chlorine', when it comes to sanitisers, but nonetheless, I wonder if anyone can weigh in on this.

Peracetic acid (PAA) - made from mixing concentrated hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) with acetic acid (vinegar), and using an acid catalyst to kickstart the reaction - is apparently a strong chlorine alternative for municipal water treatment. (Seems to be raved about in that industry.)

I wonder of its usefulness for pools?

It seems to be stronger than chlorine as a disinfectant in many cases, it can be used as a steriliser (unlike chlorine), and it doesn't form disinfection byproducts (DPBs) like chlorine can (at least if chlorine's not done properly).

AFAIK, PAA doesn't last very long - when added to regular water it breaks down in under an hour, or even in mere minutes. It does seem to leave residual h2o2 (and also PAA is always sold in solutions which have a certain degree of h2o2 in it alongside the PAA), but I know that h2o2 is more of an oxidiser rather than a good sanitiser (microbe killer), and h2o2 can eat away at chlorine, so the h2o2 isn't a benefit in most cases.

But could a PAA 'zap' of a pool - including swishing water around with the pool broom to make it react with the whole pool depth rather than just the top - help reduce chlorine usage overall, if it means less surviving microbes are needing to be handled by the chlorine?

(I like how borates can lessen the amount of chlorine needed by stabilising pH and also by acting as a mild algaestat. Could PAA similarly increase chlorine's effectiveness, because of how strong it is?)

As for algae, I have concerns / am confused. I see scientific discourse that seems to suggest that PAA can actually serve as useful fuel to help algae grow, not kill it. If true, it'd only be advisable when pool is already crystal clear and no nascent, cloudy / mature algae present. Perhaps dosage matters - higher PAA concentration harms algae and lower helps it.

About residuality, I'm confused as to why PAA is so useful in pre-treating city water, if it barely lasts for long in the water - is it a quick but extremely effective 'zap', as I'm suspecting? And does the residual acetic acid (the other byproduct) break down later in the stream? (If not, it would taste and smell a bit vinegary right?)

Lastly I wonder if PAA has usefulness for 'spot cleaning' or helping to rid biofilm from plumbing lines. I know chlorine shocking can do everything, but it's interesting to think of alternatives out there. Doing a supershock for days on end because of a small area seems exhausting and maybe not always the most economical choice.

What I do know is that peracetic acid is hazardous stuff to handle. PPE is needed (gloves, eye protection, clothes) - don't breathe in, preferably decanter it outside, don't spill on skin, and don't get in eyes.

Any benefits to it?

Thanks,

fresh

P.S. How's this for diving into the deep end? :p
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Pool Plaster Start-up Alternative

Orenda Technologies has recently unveiled a new start-up program that is somewhat similar to the onBalance Bicarb start-up process.

Instead of adding sodium bicarbonate, Orenda adds calcium (calcium chloride) to low calcium tap water while filling brand-new plaster pools, which also like the Bicarb start-up, prevents the formation of plaster dust. We at onBalance have received numerous communications asking us if this Calcium program is compatible with, or a viable alternative to the Bicarbonate Start-up Method that also prevents plaster dust. The answer is a qualified yes.

The Orenda start-up program can, in certain situations, be an effective alternative to the Bicarb Start-up program which the onBalance team has been promoting for many years. It follows closely the principle of adjusting “aggressive” fill or tap water to a positive CSI number, preferably to about +0.5 for the filling of new plaster pools.

It is known that aggressive fill water (any negative CSI) is detrimental to new and vulnerable plaster finishes, including quartz and pebble, and can lead to plaster discoloration and deterioration problems developing afterwards.

Adding either calcium chloride or sodium bicarbonate to soft fill water will increase the CSI and will help prevent plaster dust and damage to new and (slightly) unhardened pool plaster. Under magnification, the plaster surface remains smooth, dense and hard, without etching caused by aggressive fill water. That in turn, will help plaster surfaces last and look good for 20 years or more instead of just 5 to 10 years before they start looking worn, deteriorated, and stained.

Both the Bicarb and Orenda “Calcium addition” start-ups work by achieving a combined calcium and alkalinity content of at least 400 ppm (minimum) and up to 500 ppm of the fill water, and an CSI of about +0.3 to +0.5. It is also important for the pH to be maintained below 8.2.

Orenda also claims that adding their chelating product SC-1000 during the start-up process helps prevent potential calcium scaling issues.

The immediate visible evidence that these start-up programs are superior to the NPC or Traditional Start-up is by observing that there isn’t any plaster dust developing once the pool is full of water as is sometimes seen, even with quartz and pebble finishes. The Traditional and NPC start-up program doesn’t balance the fill water until a day to two after the pool is full of water. That is too late. The damage has already occurred.

Click on the following video links to see the positive results of the Orenda start-up program:
Orenda No Dust Startup - Orenda Technologies
https://orendatech.com/varx-startup-tank/

As with most things, there are always variables to consider. If you are in an area where the calcium hardness level does not generally increase in your pools, then the Calcium addition start-up program would be a viable program to follow. However, if you are in an area where the calcium level does increase, and you want to avoid increasing it with chemical additions, then in our opinion, using the Bicarb start-up is preferred. Lastly, having an adequate amount of alkalinity is crucial to "carbonating" the plaster surface.

Click here to see the onBalance Bicarbonate Start-up page:
The Bicarb Start – Pool Help
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Economics of my SWG

My pool chlorine use is ~3.5 ppm/day during summer and about 1ppm/day over winter.

For our cheapest available liquid chlorine that works out at about $1 per day in summer and $0.30 in winter. Split that 50/50 and you get about $237/year in liquid chlorine.

My SWG cost me $875. The first cell lasted 8 years, so $108/year. Plus $15/yr in salt for backwash and top ups.
It gets used for 5 hours a day and draws on average about 80W in summer over those 5 hours. Make it easy and use that all year round. So 146KW/h == $36.50. Total $159.5.

The SWG costs me %67 of what it would cost to use chlorine liquid. Less if I properly did the power sums.

I replaced the cell 2 years ago, and if I get 8 years out of that one then the capital comes down to $62.5/yr.

Not that I needed convincing. Not having to worry about frequent testing or dosing is worth infinitely more, but it's interesting to run the numbers and I was prompted by stumbling across the receipt for this SWG bought back in 2009 earlier tonight.

We Have a Winner! TFP Pool of the Month (January 2025); Theme - "Let's Eat! Outdoor Kitchens"

So easy! Post ONE pic related to the theme title above. I bet you have a good pic saved somewhere. See the contest rules below to enter.

PLEASE READ OUR (UPDATED) RULES BEFORE POSTING! ----> TFP Pool of the Month Contest Rules

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Photo contests are announced on the first of each month. There is a 5-day submission phase. Days 6 & 7 are for voting. Winner announced on day 8. Winner eligible for a $50 prize.


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It's easy! What have you got to lose? You might receive a $50 discount code from TFtestkits.net.

Click Here to See Some Previous TFP Monthly Contest Winners

New owner of a pool that just recently turned green

Hi all,

As the title suggests, I'm new to owning a pool and a complete newb to maintaining one. I've been unintentionally neglecting the maintenance of the pool as I'm renovating my home and getting it ready for us to move in. Unfortunately, I've now left it alone for far too long and it's recently turned green with algae. After finding and joining TFP, as well as youtubing a bunch, looks like I'll need to SLAM the pool. I've already ordered the TF-Pro kit on the 26th but looks like it won't arrive until the 2nd. Should have ordered the Taylor kit from Amazon for faster shipping, but too late at his point. Until the kit arrives, can anything be done for the time being to control the algae growth?

Eliminating the algae is top priority, as well as understanding the process to properly maintain the pool, but since I'm a complete newb to all aspects of having a pool, I'm hoping the experts here can educate me a bit about my pool.

For starters, I don't have a rectangular pool, more so oblong, and using Pentair's calculator, my pool should be 14,500 gallons not including the spa, so perhaps 15,000 all together. I have a heated Pentair system, and while I can see the model for the filter and heater, I can't make out the model for the pump. Is there a way to identify this?

I attempted to hook up the vacuum hose to the skimmer and observed two things. The first is that I don't see an access hole inside the skimmer after removing the basket. It has another filter cover that I can't seem to remove and I don't see much suctioning or water movement inside the skimmer. The second thing I notice while attempting to remove that piece while placing my fingers inside, I can move a "block" around and that seem to have unblocked the access and allowed the suctioning to happen. Is this normal?

skimmer with basket on

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skimmer with basket off

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There's another skimmer-like access at the other end of the pool that I haven't been able to open the cover for mainly because it's on pretty tight and I don't want to risk damaging it. Not sure what it's used for?

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Lastly, at least for now since it's almost 1am as I'm typing this, there's a pipe for the return, but then I see this other pipe that is capped off. Anybody know what it's used for?

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Anyways, I'm glad to have found this site and hope to get some assistance with dealing and maintaining my pool. Appreciate any and all assistance in advance!
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IntelliCenter Firmware 2.026

After almost two years, Pentair has published new IntelliCenter firmware. The previous 2.xxx firmware had so many problems that Pentair withdrew it from their website. Hopefully they've fixed problems and added capabilities without introducing additional new problems. :)

Thanks @SA Pentair User for the heads up.


Post your experiences here to help others decide if they want to try the new firmware.
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Filter