Thought I'd make a post that might help others. We've had quite a few members this year with high TA, and I've been typing the same information over and over. I'm going to post this so I can link it to help others.

High TA can cause rapid pH rise. High TA is typically caused by high TA fill water. For some, this results in very frequent muriatic acid additions.

This is intended for those individuals that have high TA fill water (>~150), and face daily or multiple acid additions weekly. If your fill water is above this threshold, this might be the solution for you. If your fill water is below 150, just manage your pH, keep it in the 7s, and your TA will come down, and pH rise will slow as TA nears 80.

First, check out the TFP guide: Lower Total Alkalinity

Now that you have the basics...

1. Muriatic acid lowers TA and pH.
2. Aeration raises pH, without raising TA.

Here are the tricks with aeration:

1. If you want pH to rise quickly, so you can lower pH and TA again, you need to make LOTS of VERY TINY bubbles. LOTS of VERY TINY bubbles accelerates CO2 outgassing and pH rise. Waterfalls and other forms of aeration raise pH also, so if you have them, use them too.
2. CO2 outgasses the fastest when pH is between 7.0 and 7.4 (Well, 7.0 and 7.2 is fastest, then 7.2-7.4 is next...you get the idea). So lower your pH to 7.0, when it gets to 7.4, lower pH again.

When I first came to TFP, my TA was high due to prior owner's keeping it artificially high due to the use of acidic pucks (my fill water is 80). I found this aerator, that the member made and put on their return:

I didn't want to have to swap this contraption with the return eye. I also wanted something that was portable and easy to use. I got a sump pump, and built the same thing with 1.25" PVC. A 1/3hp pump is plenty big and typically come with a 1.25" male thread. Get a 1.25 Female to 1.5" SLP adapter and thread it on the sump. Build up from there. The elbows are 45s, and the end caps are drilled with 5 to 8, 1/4" holes. The sump pump is put in a bucket to protect the pool surface. I tied a rope to the handle of the bucket, and used electrical tape to attach the power cord of the sump pump to the rope, so the rope has all the tension when lowering and raising the bucket. Make sure you purchase a sump pump with a 12' cord, to keep the connection to any extension cords away from the pool. As always, when there is an electrical device in the pool, PLUGGED IN OR NOT, NO SWIMMING! Sump pumps can fail. We do NOT want electrocutions!!! NO EXCEPTIONS!

In my 30K gallon pool, I can reliably lower TA by 10, in 12 hours. If your pool is 10K, you should be able to reduce TA by 10 in 4 hours (get the connection?) I cycle between 7.0 and 7.4, because CO2 outgasses at the highest rate with this pH. As the guide indicates, 7.6 is fine for the top end too, but as @Newdude says, "I'm 'extra'." When your TA approaches 80, STOP forcing pH down so low. With a TA between 60-80, pH should be fairly stable around 7.8 to 8.0, which is just fine!

Hello. I have had my Pentair intelliflo VS pump just over 2 years now. I just noticed that the LCD screen is blank. it does not show anything. the pump works fine however. I cannot program anything since i can't see what it is i am programming. i check out to replace the screen i need to replace the entire drive kit which costs $600.00. is there any way to fix just the screen or maybe use some external device to program it? thanks

I drained for a refill to get CH under control as it was steadily rising since initial fill in November 2022. Before refilling I want to do a "mild" acid wash myself. Thinking 10:1 MA with a Stainless Steel brush. Thoughts?

Hot Tub Pool School article

Hot Tub Wiki (further reading)

Hi everyone, I'm new around here, but so far I can't find an update to my Hayward automation system (Aqua Logic AQL, software Revision 3.00). What software version do you have?

Inside, I have one of these "main" boards.

Here I noticed that J12 header (located at the top left corner, between wireless antenna connector J9 and Local Display connector J7) is a standard pic programming port (matching pickit well)

(Pin 1 is located to the left, closer to J9 connector, pin 6 is unused and thus J12 has only 5 pins)

For this, you will need a microchip PicKit 3 programmer, available via official channel for $48 here (link), or Amazon has some knock-offs for less here (link), though why so many of them are more than $48 are beyond me.

The microchip in question is PIC18F2620 and you can interact with it by:

1. Install a free mplab-x from here (link)
2. Lunch mplab ipe (integrated programming environment), which was installed along with mplab-x
   • 
3. Go to Settings > Advanced mode (password is "microchip")
4. Under Family, choose "Advanced 8-bit (pic18)"
5. Under Device, choose "PIC18F2620"
   • 
6. Make sure that target board is not powered (main circuit breaker is OFF or the board is removed from the assembly), working with a live board is risky
7. Back in IPE, Under Power tab, Choose 5.0 as VDD voltage and "Power Target Circuit from Tool" option (If you don't see power tab, check step #3)
   • 
8. Go back to Operate tab and click Connect
   • The first time you are connecting, IPE may update your programming tool, it is normal
9. First thing you NEED to do upon successful connection is click "Read" which is located in the middle of all the options
   • 
10. After a successful read command, identified by a blue, time-stamped "Read Complete" status line on the output:
11. Choose File > Export > Hex and SAVE the file somewhere safe (you may want to even email yourself this file). It will allow you to restore everything if all else has failed.

---

What I hope to accomplish is to get this community involved and allow us to finally update our automation controllers without the need to purchase the whole new Main Board, as seem to be the going suggestion to date (link).

By sharing the firmware, we can use the similar method described above to load more up-to-date firmware (via File > Import > Hex) and Program command instead of Read.

As I've mentioned, I only have access to version 3.0 of the firmware, which I will be happy to share as soon as I had a chance to cooperate with other members on data within EEPROM. I don't want someone loading out of date firmware and potentially breaking their controllers.

Anyone out there with a pickit handy and a more up to date firmware on their device?

Cheers,

eePool

Wanted to give my thoughts for anyone looking at one of these.

First, shoutout to Devon at Hotspot who answered my many questions. Im sure he is sick of me by now.

My take:

This system while it gives you free heat for the pool is incredibly complicated for a heat pump installation. You basically have to incorporate a second reversing valve into an already pretty busy condenser system. I have a 4 ton HVAC unit which moves 48K BTU plus whatever losses. lets call it 50K BTU to be easy. I am in the south so I get plenty of run time on the AC system.

My biggest take away before purchasing this unit is ask hotspot if anyone has purchased a unit in your area and see if they know the installer who did it. I called 10 HVAC places and nobody would do the work. Everyone told me to call a pool company, or outright declined after looking at the manual. I ended up doing all of the mechanical and system wiring (24VAC and sensors) work myself because I could not find a tech or company in the area who wanted to take the time. I think I realistically spent about 4 days on and off working on plumbing, fitting, brazing, wiring, etc. They claim it's a 4 hour job, maybe if you don't have a heat pump system it's 4 hours and you are highly competent working with HVAC. I have a degree in Mechanical engineering and love working on stuff, but even with that It took a lot of time to complete. this is not considering all the YouTube university time invested to learn the trade. (side note, I will no longer be paying my HVAC company 300 dollars every 6 months to maintenance my system after I learned what they are actually responsible for).


To quote my wife "if nobody has it or will do the work, is it actually as good of an idea as it sounds"

She's a smart woman, smarter than me. Was she right? time will tell. The system is working and does indeed heat the pool. It's a trickle compared to a 400K gas unit, but it's enough to maintain heat and it doesn't cost you any additional money once operational. The system was 2300 dollars from Hotspot and I have probably another ~750 dollars in parts and materials (R410A isn't cheap), so call it about 3K all in.

If I had to give it a rating...

1 out of 10 for install difficulty
5 out of 10 for documentation
9 out of 10 for operation
Overall Score
6 out of 10

• The system is complex
• Absolutely voids your warranty on a HVAC system (convince me im wrong)
• If I sell the house gods speed to anyone who takes over because I doubt anyone will be willing to troubleshoot or maintenance this thing
• Has a fatal flaw in my system arrangement without fix applied
• Trickle heats the pool
• Makes your AC near silent because it stops the fan while in pool heating
• It's cool as heck to show people. Anyone technical will love it
• Controller interface is super simple. Set the temp you want the pool to be and it does the rest.

In retrospect, liquid cooled condensers is more common in commercial HVAC applications. You might have luck contacting a commercial outfit vs residential. A tech that might want some extra work on the side may be interested in taking this job. I would have paid up for the labor, if I was able to find it.

Would I do it again... I don't know, probably because I'm a geek and love cool stuff while saving energy.

Hi all - wife and I are owners of a brand new 11,282 gallon fiberglass chlorine pool. We have a Hayward 120k heat pump but the rest of the equipment is standard stuff. I have been religious about taking a sample weekly to Leslie’s and adjusting with baking soda and dry acid. I just downloaded the Pool Math app but am struggling to understand how to load my recent test results. From what I have read so far - it seems I need to get a good test kit, likely the Taylor k-2006 kit. As a new owner (only been in the ground a few months) my biggest concerns are;

1) Consistently elevated levels of pH. Not terrible, but normally 7.9-8.1.
2) Calcium Hardness - Leslie’s tells me every trip that I do not need to be concerned about this since we have a fiberglass pool. I did a bit of my own research and found that extremely high hardness can be damaging to heat pumps. Ours is consistently low - usually around 135. Do I need to address this?
3) cya - having only owned the pool a few months I don’t have the experience yet to fully grasp how our trichlor tablets (from Doheneys) affect the cya. So far, it has been on a slow and steady rise from 0 to where it is at now, 44.
4) Chlorine is still a bit confusing to me. I am currently sitting at 1.19. I have seen some mention of liquid chlorine. Is there some reason I should be using that instead of the tablets in my auto chlorinator?

With all of this said the pool looks very gorgeous and clear. I have a Hayward QC robot which I use nearly every other day. I also have a Betta solar powered robotic skimmer that runs 24/7. I very much enjoy managing the chemicals and maintenance of my pool by myself. It is very calming for me to be outside manually scrubbing the safety ledge or sides of the pool. I have a very flexible schedule and want the pool to be in the best shape possible. I am willing to put in as much time as needed for daily tasks. I look forward to learning more from this site.

Take care!

I had a hayward aqua plus automation installed last year. Every morning the panel says check system low salt by dinnertime the salt level reads 3100 ppm I had the t15 cell cleaned and checked at the pool store all is good I checked my salt level with the Taylor kit and it's 3200.hayward tech support was not much help. Any help would be appreciated thanks

So after having some issues with Pentair and my old SWG unit I was given the opportunity to give the new Pentair PLUS SWG platform a shot and ended up with an IC30+, which is part of their new model line of salt water generators.





I'm not cool enough to do an unboxing video so instead here is a picture of the box telling you what's inside.



Check out that new acid washing kit. Pretty fancy.

I was told this is a drop in replacement for their current line of SGWs and I would be able to take the old one out and put the new one in. I'm coming off an IC30 so moving to an IC30+ was marketed as being easy to do if you already have the plumbing. The box also comes with adapters if you have their other sized units.



Turns out they were right. It's the same size as what I had and installation consisted of unscrewing the unions, taking the old one out, putting the new one in, and screwing on the unions. I don't have much more to say about the install other than that because that's all that it took. I did give the o-rings a coating of lube since I was in there and might as well since it was exposed. I have a Power Center and this one plugged right in, same size 4 pin connection on the end of the cord so nothing much to say there either. Overall the install was as promised, a direct drop in.

I don't have a before picture so lets just pretend I posted that, instead here is a side by side after.



A couple more action shots from the side





Powering on the unit it now shows a boot up reading sequence.



To access the buttons there is now a slide down cover instead of a pop up lid



The unit now will also tell you the current reading on the salt levels, which apparently my pool could use another bag, and if you scroll through the info also can get an easy reading on temperatures, run time, voltages, other warning states, model, and software versions. I think the old one did this as well but I never pushed whatever buttons were required to do so. Now there is a big INFO button right there so you can't not just go push it and see what happens.



It's only been a half hour since I got it set up so these are just initial impressions. Tomorrow will be the first full day run so I'll be going out there to see how it's working. Ran it tonight for a little while, made sure there were no obvious leaks, set it the chlorination up, watched it blink a few times, and set it back to my daily schedule. I do not have any automation but I do have a Pentair pump hooked into the Power Center with it's communication wire so the two units talk to each other enough that the SWG only runs when the pump is running.

Hopefully this first look is interesting to folks as I am not sure who has these style units yet.

Might want to store any lightweight patio furniture and such until next week. Things are about to get a bit breezy near the end of this week.

Just an FYI: This morning (3/10), we started a planned server update for PoolMath, which will take the app offline for a few hours. We’ll keep you informed as we progress and let you know when it’s expected to be fully back online.

Lee

Hi all! I just purchased a home and have started my journey of educating myself on poolchem.

I am really grateful for the guides here, especially the Ascorbic Acid guide.... See pics below for how it transformed my 30year old pool that had iron slowly deposit over the years.



Before pic, I noticed the equipment (nozzles) had an orange tint to them, and thought it was odd. I did a little test to see if it was Iron, by using an Emergen-C packet, and pouring it on one of the steps.




You can clearly see the blue circle where the vitamin C cleared the iron off. Mind you, this pools water is perfect, and I had scrubbed it with a brush. We were told by the sellers to get it replastered as "it was due".
Seeing the vitamin C work, I sourced and ordered about 4lhs of it, and using the Ascorbic Acid guide on TFP, I started the process.



At this point, I ran out of Ascorbic acid, and had to order another 4lbs. The iron stains were old and severe. I applied the second bucket, and make the decision to drain and refill after 24hrs instead of using a sequestering agent to contain the iron in solution. So, I drained the pool, rinsed it out, and patched a thin spot or two on the plaster, then refilled it.


When I got home from work yesterday, the pool was nearly filled, and honestly I was completely shocked by how severe the iron contamination was.



After the water filled, I balanced ph, added CYA, Chlorine, and salt. Today I'll check those balances, then add some calcium and call it good.


My next project will be replacing the 35 year old equipment, so I'll be taking some pics and making a thread for advice on that. Fortunately the previous owners kept all the documents for the pool, blueprints, dimensions, pipe sizes etc so that really takes out much of the guessing work. I'm aiming to either replace my SWC or upgrade the whole unit, replace the pump with a variable speed one, and am looking at if I need to replace the filter assembly or not.

Thanks for the guides here!

I’ve had a pool in my homes since I was 10, I’m now 48.
All have been SWG based with either a cartridge or sand filter (Apparently DE is banned in Australia due to carcinogens).
The amount of time, and countless thousands I’ve spent at the various pool shops, I can only imagine. Every second or third weekend I’d say.

The things I’ve been told by pool store clerks blows my mind. My favourite being that the build up on the SWG cell is calcium and it collects there because the plates vibrate with the flow of water.

This site has allowed me to firstly understand the water chemistry and the chemical interactions that are poorly explained, if at all, by shops or paid pool men.
Secondly, it’s allowed me to tame the green beast that has been bane of my existence since its install 5 years ago.

I’ve just successfully completed my first SLAM and can honestly say I don’t think I’ve ever seen a pool as clear, or as nice to be in as mine is now, after just a week.
I thought it was done at day 5 but it kept getting clearer and clearer.

I am shunning the pool shops ‘service’ from now, using them only to purchase acid, salt and liquid chlorine and will ignore everything they say.

They don’t know.
Not like you knew, and I now do.

I will be spruiking this site and it’s methodology to anyone with a pool that’ll listen from now on.

Thanks to everyone involved, honestly.
Every question I’ve had, I found the answers here already asked and addressed by someone else.
I’m hoping for a truely trouble free pool from here on out.
To say thanks I’ve chucked in some pics of the Kangaroos that hang out in my backyard every day next to the pool.

Cheers
Adam

I've been wondering about the insulation and warming properties of my pool cover. The combination of the solid safety cover and the underlying air-gap clearly provides significant insulation in the winter: on occasional checks, my water seems to have maintained a temp of around 40-44F despite our cold winter in Southeast Pennsylvania, well above the average air temperatures. I have only a rough understanding of the thermal physics of how this is happening (direct insulation versus protection from radiative loss to space, for example). But I suspect that a big part may be the blanket of warm air that stays trapped below the cover -- which itself is heated by sunlight on the dark plastic. But however it works, there is always a balmy jungle-like atmosphere of steam beneath whenever I peek below the cover.

As Spring starts to near, the lengthening and decreasing obliquity of daylight will naturally increase this effect: the air below the cover will get ever hotter, and that (along with rising soil temperatures) will start to pre-warm my pool. But at some point, such heating must be slower than having a springtime sun shine directly on an open pool. That is, at some point, the pool cover would impede the warming of my pool.

So I am curious: how might we estimate when this switch occurs? That is, when does the warming profile of an open pool exceed that of a closed/covered pool? Or simply, "if I want my pool to warm up as fast as possible for the season, when should I open it?". Maybe the answer is as simple as -- when the average air temperature exceeds that of the water. But I bet that there are many on these forums who have a deeper understanding of these mysteries -- please share your wisdom!

I've usually opened at the end of March. I don't have an active pool heater. But since last year, I've been using a solar cover to speed up the warming (or rather, to slow its cooling at night). Since my pool is surrounded by a significant number of trees, it's a bit of a race against time until the leaves fill out by the end of April. So when should I start that race?

"CYA later" -- and welcome back to all to another pool season!

Sampo

So easy! Post ONE pic related to the theme title above. I bet you have a good pic saved somewhere. See the contest rules below to enter.

PLEASE READ OUR (UPDATED) RULES BEFORE POSTING! ----> TFP Pool of the Month Contest Rules



Photo contests are announced on the first of each month. There is a 5-day submission phase. Days 6 & 7 are for voting. Winner announced on day 8. Winner eligible for a $50 prize.


It's easy! What have you got to lose? You might receive a $50 discount code from TFtestkits.net.

Click Here to See Some Previous TFP Monthly Contest Winners​

Good morning.

We installed an 18x36 vinyl liner saltwater pool in the fall. It was complete at Thanksgiving, and our pool builder did not put the salt in it and told us to wait until spring. The temperatures here in GA are 65-70 for the foreseeable future, and I want to get my pool ready for swimming. I have been manually vacuuming the dirt from the bottom for a couple of weekends. I have not ordered a better vacuum, yet, but I do plan to do so in the next week or so.

My question is: WHAT THE HECK DO I DO FIRST?

I THINK I should add the salt, and I know I need to get the pH down - my little floating thermometer/pH reader says it's at 9.0.

MY thoughts were, I was going to add salt tomorrow and then add muriatic acid - and then go have it tested. I do not have a test kit, YET - will also be ordering that this weekend, but is this what I should do first, or do you have better ideas?

WHO LET ME JUST HAVE A POOL? I feel like I did the first day I went home with my first born!

I got 3 Ultratemp boards in an auction lot with a Solartouch (and various Intellicenter bits that I kept)... some miscreant spray painted them blue, probably in attempt to prevent somebody else from reusing them. I've soaked other painted boards in IPA and cleaned them up, but it was tedious.

Anyway, free to anybody that wants to tinker with them... the "inside" of the 3 Ultratemp boards are paint-free, as was the solartouch (I tossed the cover). I did power up the solartouch but of course there was nothing connected to it.

pm me if interested

Hi All,

So I've had my pool for a number of years now and one thing that has always annoyed me a little is that the spillway from my attached spa into the pool is always active when in POOL mode. I'd like to only run the spillway a fraction of the time when the pool is running (say an 1-2 hours at most) to reduce aeration as well as cutdown on the amount of evaporite and efflorescence that forms on my spa tile face. The spillway runs like this because the return flow to the POOL side is split between the three returns in the pool and the one return in the spa using a manually actuated 3-way valve. There's nothing wrong with the plumbing, per se, it's just in order to have all the water return to the pool (and shut off the spillway), I have to walk back to the equipment pad and turn the valve. Here's a picture of the return side of my plumbing -



The actuator in the picture controls the water return for SPA Mode versus POOL mode from my EasyTouch 8 automation panel. The manual 3-way valve is what splits the POOL return water between the pool returns (3) and the spa return (1). Depending on my filter loading and pump speed, I typically split the valve 60/40 (spa/pool side) in terms of return water. That produces this picture of my spillway -



That's more than enough return flow to the spa and, because there is just one return in the spa (separate from the spa jets), I don't want to push all the water through that single return as I have a 3HP Intelliflo and filter pressure will go really high from the head resistance. So, here's my thinking -

1. Buy another CVA-24 actuator and install it on the 3-way splitter valve;
2. Adjust the internal stops on the CVA-24 so that switch position #1 is 100% POOL return and switch position #2 is 75/25 split return to actuate spill way. I've not opened one of these actuators before but I assume there are mechanical limit switches for the position stops.
3. Attach the CVA-24 to VALVE-B inside my EasyTouch panel (I think VALVE-A is often held in reserve for Solar heating which is something that might happen in the future).
4. Program one of the EasyTouch AUX relays to actuate Spillway and then use a schedule to set the times of the day when the spillway relay will go off. Again, a little fuzzy on this part if I should program it as a AUX relay or a Feature circuit??

Any thoughts or critiques on the above would be most welcome.

Thanks,
Matt

My control board is probably toast, thanks to mice. Repaired the partially chewed wire under the control membrane pad, prior to which I was getting LED lighting. Now, no LED lite. Fuses are good, I tried jumping the fireman’s switch, and the pad seems fine . . . and voltage readings from the transformer are good. I believe power is getting to the board as my proximity tester lights up when I place it next to the control boards two 24VAC pins that I assume would rule out lack of pwr to the board (admittedly not optimal diagnostics).

I’ve read in prior posts that LEDs won’t lite if there is no call for power, so am wondering if that is my issue (likely not). My question is: when pressing the Heater button on my PS2 panel, the pool/spa valve doesn’t turn like it normally would, so could this possibly indicate there is no call for heat coming from the PS2 (wiring from which to the heater have continuity and are secure in the PS2 bar). FWIW, the red diagnostic lite doesn’t lite/flash. Zilch.

The board is 14+ years old, and it was working 6 months ago, so am not holding out much hope. How I found the problem in the first place is that the heater fired up by itself one morning along with the LED flickering. BTW, I did mice proof it years ago (wire mesh at every possible opening), evidently, there was a breach or spot I missed.

To mice in my area: challenge accepted. Full and possible lethal counter measures will be implemented. Appropriation of defense funding submitted to wife and awaiting final approval.

I am highly considering a Glacier chiller because we live in Tampa and will not have a screen and our max pool depth is going to be 4'6". Has anyone on here had a Glacier in FL? I appreciate the help!

Spring is typically the time of year I need to top off my CYA. So I set up a repeating calendar event to ping me on the first Monday of February, each year, to check my supply of CYA. I happen to be low this time, so I just ordered some more. I set the date a bit early, just in case CYA happens to be in low supply. Gives me a month or so to find some.

How's your supply?

Speaking of reoccurring calendar events, I just recently added a weekly one to test my pool light's GFCI outlet. I don't regularly test any GFCI component, and never have. Just one of those things I don't think about (but should, of course). Following the advice I gave someone else here, if there's one to test regularly, it's the pool GFCI! So now I do. It's now part of my regular weekly maintenance, and considering the outlet is inches from the other things I use during my maintenance routine, and the fact that it takes seconds to test, it's pretty silly not to...

I found a box with two Hayward Aqualogic boards (GLX-PCB-MAIN)... Free to anybody who can use them. I don't know if they work, but if they don't I'm sure they can be repaired... I'm never going to use them, they're taking up space, and I don't want to throw them away. Somebody here must be into Aqualogics!

I suspect one board may actually be good, and the other has the traditional burn mark at the relay. But I don't have a way to test them (my pool is Pentair). Anyway, check out the photos, pm me with any questions

This is the suspected good board (it doesn't appear to have ever been installed):


This is the suspected bad board (note the typical relay burn mark):


These are, well, self explanatory

Good morning all,

SOUTHERN NJ HERE. So I made the mistake of asking on a facebook group and that was more useless than anything, few good points made but other than that is was the people bashing what I want to do . Have been trying to get quotes for about a month for a May installation and due to their communication and info they provide I really liked Niagra Pools & Spas in Turnersville NJ. The 3 others I contacted either never contacted me back or once they did it was like phone tag to get ahold of them, not something I want to deal with during installation! Pricing from Niagra Pool quote are below, this is semi-in ground approximately 30":

$17,595 -Pool Package: 18' x 33' x 56" Sharkline* Oasis EAW (Extruded Aluminum Wall) pool, Liner, 1.5hp 120v variable speed pump and filter, skimmer, 1 return port, cover, and maintenance/cleaning kit
$1,100 - Salt chlorinator system w/salt
$350 - Wedding cake steps
$200 - Wall foam
$2,900 - Pool Installation
$22,145 total cost for pool

Site Work Quote:
$5,000 - Excavation and haul away of soil in addition to about 5 yards of fill that's in a pile at our property
$3,200 - Backfill of pool using excavated soil: will need to be moved by hand due to space

If your anything like me you probably pooped a bit with the number for site work lol, I will say the guy that came out to do a site visit told me moving dirt is expensive, not bashing them at all, labor aint cheap!! Highly considering doing the site work myself, pool guy told me that isn't an issue with any of their warranties and they will come out to check when it's done for right depth/level. Sunbelt was under $3,000 for a week rental of a 6 ton mini excavator, 7 yard Dump, and ground protection pads. Don't think it will take a week but quote that for worst case. Before anyone says it, I know this is around 70 yards of dirt, I know it's not easy, and as far as operating I dug the foundation for my garage (blue building in the pic) and my patio by myself for the most part, I'm no expert but I can operate, I own a transit and a laser level; just getting all that out there because that's what everyone wanted to comment on with the FB post .

With all that being said I had a few questions for additions and backfill

Backfill:
-Sandy soil in my area, good to just use what comes out of the hole for backfill?
-Recommend any barrier between ground and exterior of pool wall?
-Was also thinking pavers OR rubber mulch/river rock/pebbles 24" around pool

Install/Pool Add-ons:
-Liner pad OR Perlite on top of sand base
-Foam coving
-Additional return jet on far wall
-Hard pipe everything (would be extra for pool Co. to do
-Larger pump? is a 1.5hp good enough for 20k gallons?

Anything else that you would recommend is appreciated. We aren't rich but we aren't broke either lol. We are kind of doing the bare minimum for it this year with a small exterior entry step with plans of doing landscaping, lighting, larger entry deck/step, and some other add-ons NEXT season or winter since we are already doing some fencing this year during the install.

Thank you for the help! Site pics are attached, sorry they are crappy I was outside last night marking. And the yard will be spotless prior to starting! Have to move the wood pile and purge some out to the curb! Also, setbacks are correct and marked on the pics along with the pool shape. Out township requires 6' from p[roperty lines and we have a 20' utility easement on the far side.

I originally posted the following on another forum (I thought I also posted it here, but can't find it).

First, I describe exactly what is in chlorinating liquid and bleach as far as we know. I'll use 12.5% chlorinating liquid as an example. This link is a typical example. Though they do not list the amount of salt (since it doesn't affect the lifetime of the chlorine), this is known to be equivalent to the amount of chlorine due to the way it is manufactured (by adding chlorine gas to a solution of lye). The "12.5%" chlorinating liquid is a "trade %" which is not the same as a weight percentage and is why that's a different number below. Also, the salt and chlorine are in the same quantity in terms of numbers of molecules, but these molecules differ in weight which is why the percentages of chlorine and salt differ below.

Now let's look at the ingredients in Lithium Hypochlorite where I'll use this link for Burn Out 35 as an example.
It looks like Lithium Hypochlorite contains extra salt, just like Sodium Hypochlorite. It's about the same in molecular quantity as chlorine so I suspect that the process of making Lithium Hypochlorite is injecting chlorine gas into a solution of lithium hydroxide (a form of lye, but with lithium instead of sodium). This is also not as pure as chlorinating liquid or bleach with regard to chlorates and especially sulfate. Cal-Hypo also contains salt, but not as much as other sources. Only Trichlor and Dichlor don't add salt, though they add CYA.

The following table compares the weight % of available chlorine for different sources of chlorine in ascending order. I also show what else it adds for every 1 ppm Free Chlorine (FC):
So just looking at the above list one might think that chlorine gas is best, but it's very toxic and dangerous to handle. So what about Trichlor? It contains more chlorine by weight than almost any other product. But it also adds to CYA which does not make it bad, but it does mean you are adding two chemicals to your pool every time you use it and therefore need to account for that. Same with Cal-Hypo that also adds calcium. Chlorinating liquid adds extra salt (I say "extra" because all of the above chlorine will get converted to chloride ion, salt, when it gets used), but salt does not affect chlorine effectiveness (as CYA does) nor calcium carbonate saturation (as Cal-Hypo does). These are not bad -- they are just chemical mixtures and are not just chlorine.

So if one were choosing chlorine solely on the basis of carrying the least amount of weight home from the pool store, then Trichlor would be the choice (chlorine gas would have to be in heavy tanks). But people do not normally choose solely by weight. I looked at the Leslie's website to get prices for as many of the items as I could and this is what I found (prices are before tax):

Trichlor Tabs/Pucks (3") ... $77 for 35 pounds so that's $2.20 per pound
Dichlor ... $104 for 40 pounds so that's $2.60 per pound
73% Cal-Hypo ... $120 for 50 pounds so that's $2.40 per pound
Lithium Hypochlorite ... $150 for 25 pounds so that's $6.00 per pound (from this website since Leslie's doesn't carry it online as far as I could tell)
12.5% Chlorinating Liquid ... $3.25 for 1 gallon from my local pool store (9.7 pounds -- product is 16% denser than water) so that's $0.336 per pound
6% Bleach ... $1 for 96 ounces (6.75 pounds -- product is 8% denser than water and 96/128th of a gallon) so that's $0.15 per pound

Notice how much less expensive per pound the chlorinating liquid is. It had better be because most of it is water, so what we really need to see is the cost per available chlorine and that is as follows:

Trichlor Tabs/Pucks ......... $2.20 / 0.915 = $2.40 but $3.83 when accounting for Washing Soda to adjust pH
Dichlor .......................... $2.60 / 0.554 = $4.70 but $5.73 when accounting for Washing Soda to adjust pH
73% Cal-Hypo ................ $2.40 / 0.724 = $3.31
Lithium Hypochlorite ....... $6.00 / 0.352 = $17.05
12.5% Chlorinating Liquid . $0.336 / 0.108 = $3.11
6% Bleach ..................... $0.15 / 0.057 = $2.63

The above cost is for the same amount of chlorine. That is, if you added the amount of each product required to raise the FC by the same amount for all of these products, then the above shows the relative costs (the costs above are for amounts that would raise the FC by 12 ppm in 10,000 gallons). You can see that Trichlor and bleach are roughly comparable in cost [EDIT] if ignoring chemicals needed to adjust for pH [END-EDIT] while Cal-Hypo and chlorinating liquid is a little more expensive and Dichlor a little more expensive than that. Lithium is much, much more expensive. Not just twice as much (as with Dichlor vs. Trichlor), but over 7 times as expensive as Trichlor.

[EDIT]
The above did not account for the fact that the various chlorine sources vary in their effects on pH and need compensating chemicals. If we assume that a pool is balanced at an appropriate TA so that there is minimal rise in pH over time from the outgassing of carbon dioxide, then the hypochlorite sources of chlorine are essentially pH neutral and the above prices are correct as is. On the other hand, Trichlor and Dichlor need to be adjusted. For the above amounts to raise the FC by 12 ppm in 10,000 gallons, Trichlor needs 57.8 ounces weight of Borax to compensate for the acidity of chlorine addition and consumption. Dichlor (dihydrate) needs 41.3 ounces weight of Borax. Amazon.com sells 20 Mule Team Borax for $4 for one box (76 ounces), so this adds $3.04 to the price of Trichlor and $2.17 to the price of Dichlor.

If one uses Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda instead of Borax for raising the pH, then it takes 29.2 ounces weight for Trichlor and it takes 20.9 ounces weight for Dichlor. Amazon.com sells Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda for $2.70 for 55 ounces (shipping is high, but some grocery stores had it for this price as well), so this adds $1.43 to the price of Trichlor and $1.03 to the price of Dichlor. Note how much more economical Washing Soda is compared to Borax, but remember that it increases TA twice as much as Borax for the same pH rise. If a pool has sufficient aeration, then a balance can be obtained.

Another alternative for raising pH and similar to Borax in not raising the TA as much is Lye (Caustic Soda) which can be obtained for around $3 per pound. For the amounts as indicated above, Trichlor needs 11.8 ounces while Dichlor needs 8.5 ounces, so this adds $2.21 to the price of Trichlor and $1.59 to the price of Dichlor. So this is less expensive than Borax, but more expensive than Super Washing Soda.
[END-EDIT]

Richard

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Hello, I hope there's a heater expert that can help me here!

I'm trying to diagnose a customer's Jandy LXI pool/spa heater. Customer says the heater doesn't work. On visual inspection, the heater is in good repair, minor wear on the outside of the unit. Wiring and plumbing are clean and leak free. The heater is wired for automation into a Hayward ecom4 and was set for remote thermostat, but for testing purposes I have disabled it and am operating it manually. On the heater, spa mode is selected and the temp is set to its max 104F.

Visual inspection of the heater from the inside is like new, with minor oxidation and some bug carcasses/leaf debris. Wiring and hoses are clean and free of damage. Board is clean and shows no damage. Gas valve has white oxidation on the outside, peculiarly more than anything else in the unit.

When starting the variable speed main pump and letting it rev up to operating RPM of around 2600, the heater kicks on. The heater blower starts up. After a few minutes, the heater shuts off with the "Ignition failure fault" error. I confirmed the gas valve on the external pipe is parallel and the knob inside the unit on the valve is set to on. I confirmed the igniter is in like new repair. The Fenwal blinks with a red LED one time, indicating an air flow fault.

I tested continuity on the air flow switch by placing probes on the leads going into the switch, then blowing into the tubes attached to it. When blowing into the tube from the burner pipe enclosure, I had continuity. When blowing into the tube from the side, there was no continuity.

I never smelled any gas in the entirety of testing. I tested with the external gas valve in both positions, and never smelled anything, however I checked the gas meter when it was in the open position and the meter was moving.

I don't know what else to test, I'm hoping one of you with more experience can help point me in the right direction.

If you need photos or additional info, let me know.

Thank you!

The following gives a rough idea of pH buffering strength with 50 ppm Borates vs. 80 ppm CYA vs. 70 ppm carbonate alkalinity where the strength is buffer capacity in millimoles/liter/pH (that is, the amount of acid per volume needed to move the pH by one unit, but in an infinitesimal sense). I also list the effect of 50 ppm Borates and 80 ppm CYA on TA.

.................................................... 50 ppm ............... 80 ppm ................ 70 ppm
pH .... Borate_TA ... CYA_TA ... Borate Strength ... CYA Strength ... Carbonates Strength ... CYA+Carbonates ... CYA+Carbonates+Borate
7.0 ......... 1.7 ........... 18.8 ............. 0.08 .................... 0.32 ....................... 0.51 ......................... 0.83 ............................. 0.91
7.1 ......... 2.2 ........... 20.3 ............. 0.10 .................... 0.30 ....................... 0.41 ......................... 0.71 ............................. 0.81
7.2 ......... 2.7 ........... 21.6 ............. 0.12 .................... 0.28 ....................... 0.34 ......................... 0.62 ............................. 0.74
7.3 ......... 3.3 ........... 22.9 ............. 0.15 .................... 0.25 ....................... 0.27 ......................... 0.52 ............................. 0.67
7.4 ......... 4.1 ........... 23.9 ............. 0.19 .................... 0.22 ....................... 0.23 ......................... 0.45 ............................. 0.64
7.5 ......... 5.2 ........... 24.9 ............. 0.23 .................... 0.20 ....................... 0.18 ......................... 0.38 ............................. 0.61
7.6 ......... 6.5 ........... 25.6 ............. 0.29 .................... 0.17 ....................... 0.15 ......................... 0.32 ............................. 0.61
7.7 ......... 8.1 ........... 26.3 ............. 0.36 .................... 0.14 ....................... 0.13 ......................... 0.27 ............................. 0.63
7.8 ....... 10.0 ........... 26.8 ............. 0.44 .................... 0.12 ....................... 0.11 ......................... 0.23 ............................. 0.67
7.9 ....... 12.5 ........... 27.2 ............. 0.54 .................... 0.10 ....................... 0.09 ......................... 0.19 ............................. 0.73
8.0 ....... 15.5 ........... 27.6 ............. 0.67 .................... 0.09 ....................... 0.08 ......................... 0.17 ............................. 0.84

You can see not only how 50 ppm Borates increases pH buffering overall, but is a nice complement to the carbonates and CYA pH buffering and provides stronger buffering as the pH rises. So basically you have the carbonates and CYA preventing the pH from quickly dropping too much while you have the borates preventing it from quickly rising too much. Additional info is in this post.

The peak pH buffering occurs when the pH is at the pKa of the weak acid and its conjugate base so for carbonic acid / bicarbonate this is at pH 6.3, for bicarbonate / carbonate this is at pH 10.2 while for H₃CY/H₂CY^- this is at pH 6.8, for H₂CY^-/HCY^2- this is at pH 11.3, for HCY^2-/CY^3- this is at pH 13.3, for boric acid / borate ion this is at pH 9.1.

As noted in this link, the buffer capacity can be calculated from the formula ln(10)*C_buf*K_a*[H⁺]/(K_a+[H⁺])² and the amount of acid or base needed to change the pH by a specific amount can be calculated by the difference in C_buf*K_a/(K_a+[H⁺]) at two different pH values and summing these differences for all of the buffer species. Calculating the effect on pH when acid or base is added when multiple buffer species are present requires iteration since the inverse formula cannot be solved in closed form.

New pool owner here. We opened our pool around May of this year. Unfortunately, I was very poorly educated prior to the build. I didn't understand SWGs, automation, and the like. Our builder, as a result of my ignorance, built am a very nice basic pool. Not his fault at all. After a few months on TFP and a summer of education on TFP and adding chlorine, I realize I probably would like an SWG system, and I might as well upgrade to automation at the same time. My builder is capable of the install, and indicated he would sell equipment at his cost, but he is unable to "educate me regarding options and possibilities" due to language limitations between us! He is a great guy, but his English is limited and my Spanish is nonexistant. I have an Intelliflow VS pump and Jandy lights with no automation. I am running the pump per internal programming. We are not heavy pool users, but thought that if I am upgrading, I should at least plan for future possibilities. I may as well plan for App controlled spa and temperature management at this time. I assume automated valves would be needed for app control. Is the Intellicenter and Pentair SWG most appropriate? I'd appreciate thoughts and input.

Hi TFP Community. Family just embarked on our pool build. Shotcrete was completed last week.

5 years ago, never thought I’d own a pool. EVER.

Wife and son changed my mind and now we are looking forward to this pool-side lifestyle. We live in Southern California, inland dessert region, so the pool will be year-round thing for us.

Here’s a few pics of current construction. Trying to decide on the following. If anyone has input, feel free to add. Been searching the forum

Pool Type: Saltwater 16x32, with integrated 8x8 spa, max 6’ deep

Plaster: NPT Stonescape Mini - Will this be to rough? Haven’t been in a pool with one before and our pool builder, very reputable, recommended it as a sweet spot between aesthetic and longevity, but we’ve had multiple people reference mini pebble being too rough.

Plaster Color: We like Stonescape Black Mini. Dark green in deeper end, with lagoon vibe is appealing to us. Some concerns on it holding too much heat in summer (no chiller pump) but leaning towards not caring because it looks so good.


Decking: Brushed v. Salt Rock Concrete. My wife likes salt rock. I’m indifferent, but don’t want it to look bad. We don’t want to spend a ton and want something that will last, look clean, but not too industrial. A couple threads on issues with the cold and water freezing in the indents of salt rock finish, but not a concern in Southern California. Any recommendations for or against Salt Rock?

Umbrella Sleeves: Plan is to do 5 total. One is already installed on the Baja shelf. Other will be on deck placed where they should help with sun. Used an app to check sun angles through the year, so hopping we do best we can with placement. The design drawing attached details the locations - black dots. Any input on others choice/regrets/positives on where they installed their sleeves?

Gate: Pool builder quoted for wrought iron. We love hog wire/box wire for more of a rustic/country vibe. We need to meet city code, but wondering if anyone has had success with hog wire/box wire install?

Anyway, I’ll be scouring TFP for more info to catch up on the dos and don’ts. Thanks in advance!