Will dissolved pool salt (sodium) or borates be filtered out by a (sub)microfilter?

fresh

Member
Dec 26, 2024
9
Australia
I soon will be adding borates to my pool (mostly boric acid but a small amount of borax too + HCl to compensate) for pH buffering.

With a 1.0 micron or 0.5 micron (or even 0.2 or 0.1 micron) filter attached to a pool return jet (to help take some load off sanitation), will the dissolved borates - or even pool salt (the sodium left over from SWG) - get filtered out into the bag, or are the micron sizes of fully dissolved borates/sodium much smaller than 0.1 microns?

Another way of putting this could be: could a 0.1-1.0 micron filter lower pool TDS in a significant way?

Thanks
 
Ultrafiltration membranes remove particles in the 0.002 to 0.1 micron range.

Ultrafiltration does not eliminate dissolved solids or TDS dissolved in water; it only reduces and removes solids / particulates.
 
TFP is a registered 501(c)3 non-profit that is maintained by user donations.

All of our content is free of advertisements.

Please consider donating at:

 
I would do all boric acid.

The filter bag will not remove the borates or any TDS.

:goodjob:

Yeah I know, well I already bought 20kg of a product that's 82% boric acid and18% sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, and it's coming in the mail now. I assume once I correct for the 18% borax with proportionate initial HCl, it won't be an ongoing situation of constantly needing to add weekly HCl just because some pentahydrate is perennially in the water (hope not?).

(I also plan on maintaining a very low alkalinity (like 50-60ppm), to likewise act as a pH buffer. The reason for this is that I plan on running a waterfall feature connected to one of the pool returns all day long (no extra cost since uses pump's electricity), thus I need to keep pH strongly stabilised. Had no idea it was possible due to the pH rise problem, but thanks to borates and low alkalinity, now I do! Local pool shop guys would have zero clue about any of this. Very appreciative to TFP for sharing the knowledge that alk really can be down to 50 and is great buffer.)

Fortunately I've now sourced some well-priced pure 100% boric acid for my later borate top-ups.

So great to know these borates will remain in water - thank you!
 
  • Like
Reactions: JamesW
Get your TA set where you want it before adding the boric acid.

Once the boric acid is in the water it will be more difficult to move the TA down
 
  • Like
Reactions: fresh
With a 1.0 micron or 0.5 micron (or even 0.2 or 0.1 micron) filter attached to a pool return jet (to help take some load off sanitation),
FC consumption is generally affected by UV exposure, algae, bacteria and viruses. But by far the majority of FC consumption comes from UV exposure so using a fine filter like that really should not affect the sanitation load that much. However, using a filter that small is going to adversely affect head loss and flow rate so it is not recommended unless the media surface area is very large. Putting something that small over the pool return jet will quickly clog up and affect overall circulation so I would avoid doing that.

What is your current CYA level?

If you are trying to remove dead algae with a sand filter, then you might want to add a little DE to the filter to help with that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dirk

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
With a 1.0 micron or 0.5 micron (or even 0.2 or 0.1 micron) filter attached to a pool return jet (to help take some load off sanitation),
It really won't reduce FC demand.

How much surface area is the bag?

How often does the bag need to be washed?

How much does the bag increase the filter pressure when the bag is clean and when the bag is dirty?

I would probably not use the bag.

Have you noticed any difference with the bag vs. no bag?
 
What is your current CYA level?
+1. And also your FC level ?

All the other tricks have some merit, but the only way to be sanitary is to maintain an appropriate level of sanitizer.

Borates, a low Ph, algecide and low micron filter bags may assist making the water *look* clear, but will do nothing for sanitizing. If a bird poops in a fly by, or environmental bacteria blows in, it will flourish until you add sanitizer.

FC/CYA Levels
SLAM Process
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dirk
Thanks all. I do use a hybrid system and just wanted to know about the effect of microfiltration on borates. appreciate your input and curiosity.

Circulation is indeed something I'm thinking about. (The filter bag is fairly large 100cm long, aim is to not always get clogged up much anyway, but be an ongoing filtration assistance if you will, I prefer less chemicals to put in e.g. is it probably more environmental. I recently used filter bag to speed up collection of dead algae after mildly shocking, but now that it's crystal clear, I'll hope for only once a week to need washing and changing.)

(Also, guy at 'miraclebag dot store' website, whose more refined product I'm awaiting arrival of in mail, provides a 'safety valve' diverter adapter so that water flow isn't restricted when the bag gets clogged (so can leave overnight and not worry - no matter the state of the pool). Might solve problem of water flow loss.)

I think my waterfall has improved circulation somewhat, but even without anything attached to my returns, there's always been a dead zone at the shallow-end steps. (The design of pool is not ideal - one of the two return jets points out angularly in the opposite direction to the other, so it doesn't naturally conduce an efficient circular swirl. I may try a elbow PVC adapter to point water flow in same direction, which might help even if a large filter bag + pressure diverter valve is attached to it.)

I'm also thinking to run a double adapter from one pool return to a hose over to to the dead zone end and install the waterfall there, while maintaining some of the usual return flow under the water.

Also the main drain at bottom of deep end I think is inactive, so I may want to work that out and get a pool pro to help investigate. I've inherited the pool and am new to looking after pools.

Lastly I do have a kreepy krauly constantly travelling around so I assume that helps minimise water stagnation.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: JamesW
I'm also thinking to run a double adapter from one pool return to a hose over to to the dead zone end and install the waterfall there, while maintaining some of the usual return flow under the water.
I think you're going about this at the wrong end of the "flow train."

If you impede (with a filter bag), or split (with an adapter), one of your returns, all that will happen is flow will be reduced through that return and flow with increase out of your other return(s). The flow will find the path of least resistance. The only way to manipulate what comes out where is if each return has a home run back to the pad (it's own dedicated pipe) with a valve at the pad for each return. Then you could theoretically adjust each return to flow as you want it to. Do you have such a setup?

Many folks here, who want finer filtration, use one or both of the following. They'll either add some DE to their sand filter, and/or use a fine-mesh bag in their skimmer basket. Like this or similar:


Our frugal members just use hair nets. The advantage to this MO is that it lessens particulate matter collecting in the filter. (Filtering at the returns won't do that.)

Also, if you want to fix your main drain, that's fine. But it won't help circulation much. Sucking water out of a pool doesn't do anywhere near as much as pushing water into it. It's the returns that move the water, not the skimmer(s), not the drain(s).

When I inherited my pool, the returns were just sawed off PVC pipe. They pointed where they pointed. When I remodeled, I had the contractor add eyeball returns. Then I was able to adjust the direction of the flow. That got my pool circulating clockwise, and eliminated all the cold and dead spots. Something like these:


Do you have eyeball returns? Do you have threaded fixtures at the returns that would accept eyeball returns (they thread in)? That's the way to improve circulation. They can be added to a finished pool, with some plaster work, if you're willing to go that route.

And regarding your dead spots, if you maintain proper FC and CYA levels, you won't likely have to worry about sanitation dead spots, only areas that might get a little dusty. My steps and my bench do, but my roaming vac takes care of everywhere else. I just swish a broom over the steps when I notice they're getting too dirty.

Putting filter bags on returns just isn't done, and two of our resident experts have advised you not to. You would do well to heed those warnings. Improve your circulation and filtering as suggested, but I would leave the returns alone if I were you (unless it is to add eyeballs).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: fresh
Putting filter bags on returns just isn't done, and two of our resident experts have advised you not to. You would do well to heed those warnings. Improve your circulation and filtering as suggested, but I would leave the returns alone if I were you (unless it is to add eyeballs).
I think @fresh described some experiments being done on the pool in another thread so I’m not sure there’s convincing possible right now. Or I might have mixed up another user from Aus about that. If so, my bad.
 
Last edited:
I think you're going about this at the wrong end of the "flow train."

If you impede (with a filter bag), or split (with an adapter), one of your returns, all that will happen is flow will be reduced through that return and flow with increase out of your other return(s). The flow will find the path of least resistance.

Ah that's good to know. Well to some degree each return jet (at least in my pool) must have some resistance, as several days ago the microfilter bag was collecting particularly thick amounts of stuff (not from a floc-level accumulation, just more than I thought it'd be), and it burst free from the return attachment. (Never has done so since. I check it more regularly now, it's all settled down and pool crystal clear.) But ok, makes sense if it does distribute it somewhat. Thanks.

And this is good then because it means there's not much to lose by splitting one return jet into two outlet locations, so then the outlet water is more triangulated vs. two spots to one side.

The only way to manipulate what comes out where is if each return has a home run back to the pad (it's own dedicated pipe) with a valve at the pad for each return. Then you could theoretically adjust each return to flow as you want it to. Do you have such a setup?
They both join back to a single outgoing pipe coming out of the chlorinator.

Many folks here, who want finer filtration, use one or both of the following. They'll either add some DE to their sand filter, and/or use a fine-mesh bag in their skimmer basket. Like this or similar:

Yeah, I've done some pool-sock-in-skimmer stuff, but the problem is it's on my only inlet of my pool, so when lots of debris collects (I had a tree scatter tonnes of powdery seeds yesterday), it can strain the pump and damage something. I actually learned this the hard way, where the skimmer basket cracked under sheer force of pump trying to suck water through extremely clogged sock. So now i only use that method if it's hands-on temporary collection while watching pump carefully.

So I'm figuring post-filter collection (in only one of the returns) is superior.

Perhaps there is a skimmer basket/cover hybrid alternative, with an opening to simultaneously suck water through an opening that a basket/sock wouldn't block, anyone know of one? Then I could put a sock in there permanently, check once a week.

As for DE in sand filter I read earlier talks here discouraging, so I haven't tried that. I plan to possibly upgrade to glass filter media as one improvement. Is DE still considered a bad idea or is that assertion out of date?

Also, if you want to fix your main drain, that's fine. But it won't help circulation much. Sucking water out of a pool doesn't do anywhere near as much as pushing water into it. It's the returns that move the water, not the skimmer(s), not the drain(s).

Interesting. thx.

Must be something about the water equivalent of aerodynamics, the pump impeller 'sucks' water through, right, but you're saying the outgoing pushing back in actually makes bigger difference to water flow than the openness of incoming paths?

When I inherited my pool, the returns were just sawed off PVC pipe. They pointed where they pointed. When I remodeled, I had the contractor add eyeball returns. Then I was able to adjust the direction of the flow. That got my pool circulating clockwise, and eliminated all the cold and dead spots. Something like these:


Do you have eyeball returns? Do you have threaded fixtures at the returns that would accept eyeball returns (they thread in)? That's the way to improve circulation. They can be added to a finished pool, with some plaster work, if you're willing to go that route.

Threaded fixtures, thankfully. Thx I'll definitely do something to fix this.

Putting filter bags on returns just isn't done, and two of our resident experts have advised you not to. You would do well to heed those warnings. Improve your circulation and filtering as suggested, but I would leave the returns alone if I were you (unless it is to add eyeballs).

@Bperry Yes that was me. I'm minimising discussion to not catering to alternative chemical solutions now.

Even within just TFP method there can be a lot of variances such as climate or pool debris being significant in in some people's cases.

I think some sometimes people might need a little extra help alongside just the chemical factors. (E.g. they have slightly bad sand in filter and don't have budget to fix it just yet, so a post-filter microfilter bag might be useful for a while, or DE in sand filter, as mentioned.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dirk
I think some sometimes people might need a little extra help alongside just the chemical factors.
People who have never followed TFPC often spend time thinking up scenarios where they believe it might not work and pontificate on alternative solutions to these scenarios.

Those who earnestly attempt and follow TFPC pontificate on how to enjoy their clear and trouble-free pools.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kimkats and Dirk
glass filter media as one improvement
Won't be an improvement. Sand works just fine. If you have problems with your filter, then I'd just deep clean the sand filter.



Is DE still considered a bad idea or is that assertion out of date?
Yes, we recommend DE if you like, to a SAND filter only. Not strictly necessary. I'd deep clean first.

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dirk
Is DE still considered a bad idea or is that assertion out of date?
I have a cartridge filter and only have experience with that.
Must be something about the water equivalent of aerodynamics, the pump impeller 'sucks' water through, right, but you're saying the outgoing pushing back in actually makes bigger difference to water flow than the openness of incoming paths?
Not exactly. I wasn't referring to flow, or what the pump is doing. I meant circulation. It's the returns in a pool that move the water. If you're trying to solve dead spots or cold patches or skimmer performance, etc, anything that relies on the water moving, then it's the returns that do that. They can move the water many feet, even yards, and collectively several returns can get an entire pool moving round and round. But the main drain can only grab water from a few inches out, it's not going to have much of an effect at all on the entire body of water.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fresh
I plan to possibly upgrade to glass filter media as one improvement. Is DE still considered a bad idea or is that assertion out of date?
I wasted $600 on glass filter media and it works just the same as the plain old pool sand I had before. Pool is just as clear either way even without DE. So I’d say save your money.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.