Need expert witness in Phoenix for glass tile issues

[graveydavey]

I am going through an ROC complaint against my pool builder for various issues. It was successful except for an issue I am having with glass tiles in the spa. Basically, the ROC says that I need more proof that the failure that I am experiencing is due to the install of the tile and not the tile itself. I reached out to tile manufacturer and they are confident it is due to install process as we know they didnt follow the instructions and did not use the thinset instructed nor did a waterproofing layer. The ROC wants me to get a third party to inspect. I struggled to find someone online that is in Phoenix. Can anyone recommend someone that I can hire? Thanks.

Shrinkage cracks

 

[bdavis466]

Those don't look like shrinkage cracks but more like voids in the initial thinset application.

Are the tiles coming loose?

 

[PoolguyinCT]

I’m going to send you a PM. He is in California, but surely can direct you to a contact out your way, if he is not interested.

Bdavis- I’m sending OP RickEnglish Inspections contact, you know him?

 

[PoolguyinCT]

Incidentally, glass tile install defect is a hot topic, and unfortunately the most articulate party wins. . Manufacturers indicate installation techniques which are not always compatible with pool or submersed applications.

 

[bdavis466]

I’m going to send you a PM. He is in California, but surely can direct you to a contact out your way, if he is not interested.

Bdavis- I’m sending OP RickEnglish Inspections contact, you know him?

Not personally but I've heard of him

 

[PoolguyinCT]

Not personally but I've heard of him

Since your a California builder - that means your staying out of trouble [emoji106]..

 

[graveydavey]

the tile installer definitely did not follow the instructions from lightstreams. they did not back-butter the thinset to the tile. so, there are many places were you can see the void. the ROC is saying this is cosmetic. those cracks i circled were not on the tile during installation and have becoming significantly worse as we use the spa in the past 3 months. no tiles have popped off yet.

 

[PoolGate]

I don't know what I am looking at. Am I looking through the tile to how it was installed is that what I am seeing? At first glance I thought the tiles had grooves in them.

 

[graveydavey]

looking straight down on tiles. the little cracks in the red circles appear to be hairline cracks in the tile. they definitely are new since install. this is from the spill over shelf. under water, the cracking is much more prevalent.

the tile has a smooth side and rougher side. the smooth side is up 50% of time.

 

[PoolguyinCT]

the tile installer definitely did not follow the instructions from lightstreams. they did not back-butter the thinset to the tile. so, there are many places were you can see the void. the ROC is saying this is cosmetic. those cracks i circled were not on the tile during installation and have becoming significantly worse as we use the spa in the past 3 months. no tiles have popped off yet.

The above water photo looks like thermal expansion.

As wacky as it sounds, lightstreams instructions may not be the install best practice. & to be fair, yes- when an installer steps outside of instructions he may be creating his “own product.”

The above & below water failures are likely in related- totally different environments. I can merely speculate if they are related, an “expanding” setting bed modifier was used.

 

[PoolguyinCT]

looking straight down on tiles. the little cracks in the red circles appear to be hairline cracks in the tile. they definitely are new since install. this is from the spill over shelf. under water, the cracking is much more prevalent.

the tile has a smooth side and rougher side. the smooth side is up 50% of time.

So the tile is moving?

 

[graveydavey]

aesthetically, the lack of back-buttering is awful as you can see trowel marks beneath some tiles.

the tiles haven't moved. lightstreams is also saying its shrinkage due to cheap thinset basically. they sent me samples of their tests.

these are 2 of the products they used from a picture i have of the installation.

http://www.paragonbp.us/docs/paragonbp.us_supermix_mortar_prod_info_75.pdf

254 Platinum - LATICRETE

 

[PoolguyinCT]

Shrink/expand is what I was getting at.. like you call it cheap thin set, probably with a very low end polymer additive..

A waterproofing product isn’t employed for actual waterproofing. These products also serve to decouple the tile from the substrate & absorb shrink or expansion, basically a “bumper.”

 

[tstex]

Gravey

Here are a few statements/questions:

1. if there is a 50-50 install of smooth and rough sides, is one of these correct and one wrong? If it does matter, which side is outward on the 3 with the depression lines?

2. how many other installs has your pool builder done w these type tiles, pool or spa? If more, have you seen them or can you gain access to these installs? If so, how do they look and how long have they been installed?

3. have you seen any other installs of your tile-types by other vendors? if so, how do they look? This is where you can obtain info to perform a comparative analysis.

To conclude, I too had a very shady PB and it was more than contentious when we finally gave our final payment. They admitted, "this went badly". I had over 17 diff detailed issues submitted to the BBB and I made them post all of them for internet access. So, w that being said, you have 2 diff option here:

A. fight this guy like heck and all it does it eat at you...I know the drill, it's not a good feeling even if you win...

B. go to the manufacturer of this product, have them give you some top-notch installers [if you still want to go w the same product], and get estimates from them to do a redo for you. I know financially that is not what you want to hear, but mentally and for your peace of mind and future enjoyment of your pool/spa, it will indeed be your best route. You could even negotiate that the orig PB pays for the product [as long as it's top quality you expect] and the new contractor does the install. Or, the orig PB pays some portion thereof.

Not sure, but based on the volatility btw you and the PB, how will any other warranty issue be covered, or is it a total loss now? Working out an agreement may help salvage for any future issues, if that is of interest to you.

Bottom line is you want to get back to enjoyment, not the constant headache of outstanding issues. Any court of law is going to work on objective, provable, empirically driven facts in civil matters. The burden is on you to prove your points. If you cannot, then he wins and you pay court costs too. You have to package all of that together and decide which path is the one that will yield you the results you want w the least amt of time, energy and costs...good luck, tstex

 

[graveydavey]

1) the 50/50 split is by design.
2) I just learned that he may have never done a glass tile install. he hired a sub that allegedly did but PB didn't follow up or supervise anything.
3) I saw pictures of subs work (in theory). I don't have a lot of trust at the moment.

I have to fight on some level because my pool is leaking a lot of water at the moment and nobody knows why. I have a meeting with lawyer friend on Tuesday.