Major backyard/pool reno project planning - getting started - advice appreciated!

[HitchHiker]

All,

Found this forum online yesterday and registered. This is my first post! We have a 1991 Anthony inground Gunnite free form pool in our newly inherited "fixer upper" home. In short, the back yard is a disaster right now. The garden areas are completely overgrown, the yard is mostly weeds, and the entire back yard, and therefore also the pool itself, is surrounded by no less than 20 mature trees (I counted yesterday). The shed roof needs to be replaced as it is rotting. I will snap some pics soon and post up here to give firsthand views and get some reno ideas from everyone here on the forum. I've got my own ideas already of course.

Best I can tell, the plaster surface is original, and is about done. I drained the pool completely over this past weekend, which was full of rotting leaves since the pool wasn't properly covered over this past winter season, and powerwashed the entire surface at 3000 PSI. Even after a thorough powerwashing, the surface is still stained and looking pretty bad. I looked into various paint options (rubber, epoxy, acrylic, etc.) but most of them seem like bandaids that only last a few years at most. The only "real fix" is to have the surface sandblasted and re-plastered right? Given the plaster surface is 26 years old, it's time. I'm already refilling the pool, as I ran water tests on the putrid water and TDS came back really high, so I had to replace the water either way - and I didn't want to leave it drained for a long period of time and risk hydrostatic pressure problems. In hindsight I probably should have at least tried to bleach the surface before refilling it after reading some additional posts on this forum yesterday, but we want to at least use the pool for the remaining season and then start our reno project in the fall if possible.

The house has a three season sunroom off the back (about 15 x 20), and the yard drops down about three feet vertically via a small hill right after the sunroom down to an extended cement pool deck. The sunroom is built using a total of seven sliding glass doors, three of which face out toward the pool area. The drop down right off those three sliding glass doors is currently an overgrown heap of weeds/garden area that extends down and out about six feet - and is blocked in by some older paver style stonework that raises the garden area about 12 inches, which then terminates at the beginning of the extended cement pool deck. On the two sides of the sunroom are garden areas, so of the seven sliding glass doors, only ONE is actually in use (and therefore probably needs to be replaced due to wear and tear). Call me crazy, and yes I know the sliding glass doors were used to maximize viewing area, but the fact that no one can actually use six of the doors for anything other than ventilation, doesn't make any sense to me (I'm an engineer by training that works in IT nowadays). I want the doors to be useful for something other than ventilation after the reno.

So, long story short, we have big back yard reno plans per our list below:

Pool - NEED:

Re-surfacing
Re-tiling
Re-coping
Equipment replacement (want to move to a maintenance free type setup)
Safety cover installation (for off season)

Pool- WANT:

Concrete deck replacement or deck overlay with stonework/pavers (TBD)

Add pool water features:
Integrated spa
Grotto/waterfall feature
Tanning deck
Integrated LED Lighting

Hardscaping/decking:

Raised hardscape between sunroom to near side pool (level with integrated spa/water features)
Wrap hardscape around both sides of sunroom - replace garden areas with hardscaping
Possible outdoor kitchen area (left side of sunroom)
Possible outdoor fireplace and/or firepit area with seating (right side of the sunroom)

Yard plans:

Replace all fencing around back yard (aged wood fencing has reached end of life)
Replace shed roof (or the shed altogether)
Clear out all brush from under trees and landscape cleared areas with stone/mulch
Consider removing some trees
Install gazebo under trees for adjacent seating area for pool
Install hammock between trees adjacent to gazebo

Budget: ~50k (can include DIY efforts to minimize labor costs)

I have a few logistics questions on some of the water features. Do the water features need to have direct access to the existing pool plumbing, or can they be run independent of the existing plumbing? I ask because currently the pool equipment, including electrical, skimmer (only one), pump/filter, and feed/etc., is all located on the far side of the pool, hidden by some privacy fencing.

Since the back yard drops down about three feet, I wondered if I could add the integrated spa on the near side of the pool, built on top of the existing pool deck, remove the current garden area that exists right in front of the three sliding glass doors, and then build up that three feet using dirt/gravel base, and install hardscaping right up to the integrated spa and the pool. I already see a few problems with this design approach - building up the area between the sunroom and pool will block the view of the pool at least partially since we could no longer "look down" into the pool area from the sunroom like we can now. If the spa has to be located near the existing pool plumbing, this design idea won't be possible either.

I will snap some pics when I get home today as raw "before" pics for the record. I will be cleaning up a lot of the landscaping issues over the next few weekends while we use the pool as well, just to get the overgrown areas under control. We may start the fence replacement project during the latter half of the summer as well using vinyl fencing (vinyl is final right?). More to come soon!

 

[HitchHiker]

Pictures as promised:

Picture of pool from shallow to deep along the length:

Picture of the pool steps:

Picture shallow to deep that shows the seating insert:

Picture of the equipment area:

Another picture along the length:

Picture of the inbuilt loveseat:

Picture from far side of pool up toward the sunroom showing the overgrown gardens:

Picture deep to shallow end along the length:

Picture from the pool area centered looking up at the sunroom:

Offset right of the sunroom showing the gardens/overgrown areas:

Offset left of the sunroom showing the gardens/overgrown areas:

Lots of work to do as you can see. Hopefully you can now see how the yard drops down after the sunroom via the stairway more clearly.

So, if this were what you inherited, what would you do for reno? Ideas are welcome please!

 

[HitchHiker]

I have A&S scheduled for a site evaluation and estimate tomorrow. I'm looking for recommendations on other good pool renovation companies in the northern Delaware area. I've seen references to Blue Haven and Clark's pools whom I plan to contact for quotes as well.

I've been looking at Unilock for pavers and coping, any experiences with this brand? I'm arranging estimates for unilock as well.

 

[SuzfromTexas]

Wow... Welcome to TFP! I love these old pool renovations.

You've got your work cut out for you. You said this place was inherited. Do you plan on making this your home or hoping to sell?

You've done a great job with pictures, and you gave us more info than I can digest right now! I'm not complaining. I'll just need some time to re-read and match up with the photos.

I would definitely feel overwhelmed, but you've done a lot of thinking already! I think you mentioned wanting to first clear out some of the over growth. I would definitely need to do that.

I think next I would work on the pool. I like the idea of having the pool to cool off and relax during the work stages (when warm enough). I can't say if that's the best sequence or not.

I have no idea how high costs are in your area, but for the Houston area, your estimated budget would be too low. There's just so much going on. Definitely tackle this by breaking into stages. You sound excited and energetic about your project - that will carry you a long way!

There are just so many gorgeous possibilities. It's going to be fun following the transformation. There are tons of ideas here on TFP, Pinterest, and across the web. If you've already done some inspiration shopping, post those pictures as well.

I love the old pools. There is just a different feel about them that I love. Thanks for sharing your adventure with us. It's going to be fun!

Take care,
Suz

 

[HitchHiker]

Wow... Welcome to TFP! I love these old pool renovations.

You've got your work cut out for you. You said this place was inherited. Do you plan on making this your home or hoping to sell?

You've done a great job with pictures, and you gave us more info than I can digest right now! I'm not complaining. I'll just need some time to re-read and match up with the photos.

I would definitely feel overwhelmed, but you've done a lot of thinking already! I think you mentioned wanting to first clear out some of the over growth. I would definitely need to do that.

I think next I would work on the pool. I like the idea of having the pool to cool off and relax during the work stages (when warm enough). I can't say if that's the best sequence or not.

I have no idea how high costs are in your area, but for the Houston area, your estimated budget would be too low. There's just so much going on. Definitely tackle this by breaking into stages. You sound excited and energetic about your project - that will carry you a long way!

There are just so many gorgeous possibilities. It's going to be fun following the transformation. There are tons of ideas here on TFP, Pinterest, and across the web. If you've already done some inspiration shopping, post those pictures as well.

I love the old pools. There is just a different feel about them that I love. Thanks for sharing your adventure with us. It's going to be fun!

Take care,
Suz

Thanks for your reply Suz! Take your time ingesting the content, we aren't in a hurry here.

To answer your ownership question, we are living here for now as we converted our previous home into a rental property. Our current thinking is that we are probably here for 5-10 years and then downsizing, but plans can change as you know - life is what happens while we're busy planning right?

We have three kids ages 22, 20 and 17. We've got at least five years before our youngest is out of college so we don't see ourselves entertaining a move for at least that amount of time.

That said, while we are here we would very much enjoy a back yard paradise and entertainment areas. We also have a lot of reno work to do within the house as well as the kitchen and baths are original to the house which was built in 1985, so I can't go too crazy with the back yard as a result.

You mention my budget being too low, that's why I have needs and wants. I realize I will probably have to sacrifice some wants on this project or insert significant DIY pieces to save on labor costs. We'll see what the estimates have to say.

Please keep ideas coming!

 

[Foxy]

I don't have any suggestions at the moment, but I'm excited to follow along with your project!

 

[ctrav]

Welcome to TFP! This is one heck of a project in a very cool way. The pool actually looks very good for its age and considering your area and harsh winters. I think getting bids will tell you how much of your wants/needs will be accomplished. You mentioned Blue Haven pools I believe and I think they are a big nationwide company. That can be good and bad...I went with a small local company for my build and saved so it may be something for you to consider. Keep us posted on what you decide and you will get lots of help along the way...you did very well with your fist post of info and pics!

 

[HitchHiker]

Thanks for the comments so far. I just had my first consultation today with A&S. Will be interesting to see the pricing next week. They only do the pool renovation and outsource the hardscaping to a local larger builder, and they outsource decking to Sundeck.

So what did I learn today? Apparently adding an integrated spa to an existing pool is no small matter and is generally not recommended because they would have to cut into the existing pool structure and there are always risks involved when doing so. He said the costs are considerable - equivalent almost to installing a new pool at 25-30k. That doesn't sound right to me so am asking for feedback. That said, he said adding a separate spa is better anyways so we could use it year round, which does make sense.

What doesn't make sense is that we currently only have one skimmer and given we have 20 trees surrounding the pool area, he recommended adding a second skimmer. Doesn't this also require cutting into the existing pool structure and also excavation to run the additional plumbing? Why is cutting into the existing structure for a new skimmer ok but not for adding a spa? Things that make me go hmmmmm....

We reviewed all of the available coping and tile options and I now have a brochure. I liked the upgraded travertine or blue stone coping, and either the upgraded ansylbrite cobalt quartz plaster finish or their equivalent of a pebbled surface called natural pearl.

I think the blue stone coping may be the better option as I believe travertine is more porous and must be sealed to avoid staining. Anyone have any opinions?

I have to research the Sundeck overlay options now and am awaiting a consultation from the local builder for the hardscaping and waterfall/grotto options.

I've also contacted two additional PBs for competitive bids, one of which is a local PB - Clark's Pools. The other is Blue Haven which is another larger national PB. Does anyone have any experiences with other reputable local PBs in the Delaware area that come recommended?

 

[HitchHiker]

Oh, and another question. It seems like people have a love/hate relationship with Pebbletec. The local PB is a Pebbletec installer exclusively and doesn't deal with plaster any longer. Thoughts?

 

[Foxy]

I think you may be better off contracting each section of the project on your own, for example hiring someone for plaster and tile maybe even a separate person for tile, someone else for deck, someone else for landscaping and everything not attached to the pool, etc.

Reference the skimmer install vs adding a spa, I have a little input as I just had a skimmer replaced during my renovation and considered adding a second skimmer, but didn't. Adding a skimmer is only cutting into the shell about a foot deep and a foot wide, you can check based off the size of a skimmer face. The plumbing is also not very deep about 2ft, so it's not a ton of digging. A skimmer doesn't add any weight to the existing structure to compromise the structure, it doesn't need any reinforcing steel added or tied into the existing structure, so that's the biggest difference with adding a spa. I did a structural change to my pool, but it was pretty minor, we raised an existing sun deck up about 9" to make a more shallow sun deck, that required drilling into the gunite and adding rebar and it's a much smaller project than adding a spa. Like you, I'd have loved to add a spa onto my existing pool, actually inside the existing pool which would make the pool area smaller, but the cost was not worth it, structural changes are expensive. We also asked about a rock type waterfall feature, but the price tag on that also made it not worth it. We removed a water feature from the back wall of our pool and in the future (if we run out of house projects LOL) we'd like to add a water feature wall to the entire back edge, so we have looked into what it would take to do that and that is more budget friendly and we can DIY it.
What have you been told about adding a Grotto/waterfall feature and tanning deck? How are you thinking about doing the tanning deck, changing the existing steps or creating a whole new ledge somewhere?

 

[HitchHiker]

@Foxy thanks for all of your input! [emoji1]

Basically A&S connects me up directly with the hardscaping and decking firms directly so essentially I'm the GC on the project anyways. I already have separate appts next week with the landscaping and Sundeck companies.

I'm actually also looking into having a 2+ car oversized garage installed into the other side of our back yard as well, along with extending our driveway back to this garage area. We are planning to purchase a runabout boat within the next year or so and I would prefer to house it myself as opposed to leaving it outdoors or paying to have it stored during the off season. This is the other major part of the back yard transformation that I haven't mentioned yet.

Thanks for the info on the skimmer vs spa that makes much more sense now that I think about it. I actually didn't bring up the sun deck after the A&S guy basically said he really recommended against any structural changes, but I didn't think about using the current stairway area for that, so I will email our A&S rep about that option.

I did ask about grotto costs and the guy said an average grotto is about 3-5k, but it really depends on size and features of course. The sky is the limit with costs these days on features it seems.

I would be open to creating a whole new sun deck, but wouldn't this alter the structure as well? If so, how big a change to the structure?

I have seen a few DIY waterfalls as well, though most I have seen are artificial as opposed to using real stones and boulders. It is nice to know that this type of feature can be added later though.

Many thanks!

CJ

 

[Foxy]

If you did a water feature wall instead of a waterfall and used masonry block to construct it and covered it in tile or stone, that should cost a bit less than a grotto waterfall, not the same look of course, but sometimes we have to compromise lol.

My sun deck was only about 9", so not a huge change. Changing your steps would be a bit more work, but if you really want a sun deck, that would be the perfect place for it in my opinion, so I'd ask the builders what they think about it. That wouldn't be cutting into the outer shell, they would just be building up the existing steps inside the shell. If you created a separate sun deck, it would depend where you wanted it, inside the existing shell vs extending it outside the existing shell and that would be the same issue as adding a spa, so that's why I suggested changing the steps to a deck.

Here's how my sun deck/steps were changed-
20170609_181552 by Kristin Bollinger, on Flickr

20170620_163207 by Kristin Bollinger, on Flickr

20170627_123729 by Kristin Bollinger, on Flickr

20170707_161345 by Kristin Bollinger, on Flickr

 

[Foxy]

I found this on the forum, sucks Photobucket removed so many images, but this timelapse shows adding a sun deck and a water feature wall to an existing pool. Remodel In Phoenix, AZ

Time lapse video of pool renovation March 2016. - YouTube

 

[PoolGate]

I found this on the forum, sucks Photobucket removed so many images, but this timelapse shows adding a sun deck and a water feature wall to an existing pool. Remodel In Phoenix, AZ

Time lapse video of pool renovation March 2016. - YouTube

Love the video very cool! I wonder if I could set this up for my upcoming build.

 

[HitchHiker]

I found this on the forum, sucks Photobucket removed so many images, but this timelapse shows adding a sun deck and a water feature wall to an existing pool. Remodel In Phoenix, AZ

Time lapse video of pool renovation March 2016. - YouTube

Foxy that's a great idea adding a sundeck to the stairway area! I've already emailed A&S asking them if they can quote me on this option.

I found another local PB that appears to have a very good rep in this area so that puts me up to two local PBs now.

The time lapse video is really cool. It looks like whomever did had a security camera installed and simply kept all of the footage. Way cool video and a beautiful pool transformation! [emoji1]

 

[Gorilla83]

Somewhat local guy here - subscribed for progress updates. We're in the process of spec'ing out a new build at looked at both A&S and Clarks. Unfortunately we're outside of Clark's service area which stinks because I've heard good things.

 

[HitchHiker]

Gorilla83,

How about Price Right Pools for you? I've heard good things about them as well in southeastern PA.

 

[HitchHiker]

Met with one of the local landscaping, decking and hardscaping firms today. Had a good series of conversations and a good site survey.

Their recommendation was to replace the current decking and go with either an aggregate concrete deck or stamped concrete decking and expand the size of our current decking quite a bit. Our narrowest current decking is three feet, looking to expand to at least 5-6 feet. Going with pavers is also an option but drives up the price quite a bit in comparison and they claim the stamped decking closely resembles pavers and requires less maintenance and holds up better over time especially for pool decking when compared to pavers. Looking for feedback on this from the experts here! [emoji1]

I'll be meeting this contractor in their offices in early August to review a 3D rendering of their proposed design and to actually view some of the decking and paver options at their outdoor display areas. This contractor is also open to a phased approach over a couple of years to manage costs as long as we can agree to the entire site design initially, that way they can run all required plumbing and electric for the entire design when we deconstruct the entire back yard.

This contractor said going with completely new decking as opposed to Sundeck overlay is a better, stronger and more reliable option. They said overlays usually last about 3-5 years before problems start up. Anyone have opinions on overlays vs all new decking in this regard?

So far I'm having fun with the design aspects!

One of the advantages of going with all new decking is that we can run new pool plumbing for water features, including deck jets.

I'm kinda liking the look of inform decking inclusive of the coping - so no separate coping for the pool. I'm looking at a stamped concrete pattern that mimics the look and feel of flagstone.

 

[HitchHiker]

All,

Got my first pricing bid back from a local pool contractor, details provided below, would really appreciate feedback on each price line and whether this pricing is reasonable or otherwise:

POOL STRUCTURE:


Free Form 109 linear feet


- Approximately 25’ of raised wall with (3) 2’ sheer decent would estimate at $15,800.00

(does not include coping or face work)

- Installation of (4) deck jets - $3,400.00

- Installation of a standard selection 3”x3” tile line - $4,300.00

- Installation of one color 5G LED light into the existing niche and junction box - $850.00

- Installation of complete pool automation with mobile access - $4,600.00

- Installation of new pool equipment - $9,100.00

- 60 sq. ft. DE filter

- Variable Speed Pump

- Heat Pump

- Plumbing

- Poured System Pad

- Electrical estimates for automation and equipment could range from $1,500.00-3,000.00 (electric would need to be checked by our

electrician for a more accurate estimate.

- Installation of one new pool return - $1,000.00

- Installation of one new skimmer line - $2.675.00

- Run new lines to existing returns and skimmer - $2,100.00

- Removal of existing bottom drain - $1,200.00

- Application of a standard color PebbleTec surface including fill water - $14,475.00

- Application of a standard color PebbleSheen surface including fill water - $15,175.00

- Installation of SmartMesh safety cover - $3,999.00 installed (paver application)

Looking forward to hearing back from the experts on this site!

 

[Sfpat]

I'm not an expert, but the prices above don't seem outrageous. I redid my pool last year (125 feet) with new tile, coping and white plaster plus deck drains, light and other miscellaneous stuff for just over $13 K. Don't have a feel for Pebbletec/PebbleSheen but I understand it's more expensive than plaster.