Pentair heat pump and pump not working well together

[aaw]

I had a new Pentair Ultratemp heat pump and Intelliflo variable speed pump installed last year and they're constantly getting stuck in reboot loops. When the heat pump comes on, it almost always trips a shutdown of the pump. Once the pump shuts down, the heat pump detects no flow and shuts down, then they both restart with a delay and the process continues. Once in a blue moon the heat pump will not overwhelm the pump and things get going and I can heat the pool but most of the time it's just reboot loops over and over for a few hours.

The heat pump and the pump are on the same (outside) breaker but my electrician has moved them around to different slots on the breaker and tried with and without GFCI breakers, still the same thing happens. He has measured the heat pump pulling 130 amps or more on startup, which he thinks is very excessive. No breakers are ever tripped during this reboot process, but I do notice my house lights dimming sometimes on what I guess are some of the bigger draws during the heat pump startup attempts.

My electrician has looked at this setup at least 3 times and thinks there's something defective about the heat pump. It's still under warranty (at least for now) and I have tried for a year to get Pentair to acknowledge and look into this problem but they won't. They've sent a pool company out to look at the heat pump and after several months the pool tech concluded that yep, there's some problem with the heat pump. Every time I call back Pentair just gives me a brand new tracking number and starts the process of trying to schedule a pool company to come out and look. My pool guy (who installed the setup, different from the pool tech that Pentair sent out) also can't get anyone from Pentair to look at it.

My pool guy now thinks that I should add a surge suppressor in front of the Intelliflo pump. Does this sound like a good idea? If so, is there one that anyone can recommend? I'm hesitant to call my electrician to come out and try yet one more thing when he's pretty convinced that I need to press on Pentair more to get someone to acknowledge the heat pump is defective.

 

[Lake Placid]

Which specific model of Ultra Temp?

 

[aaw]

Which specific model of Ultra Temp?

UltraTemp 120Q (and Intelliflo3 VSF 3HP)

 

[Lake Placid]

The amperage your heat pump is drawing on startup seems normal.

RLA- Rated Load Amperage is amperage drawn by the system doing all the work it is rated to do or designed to do.

LRA - Locked Rotor Amps the amount of amperage a motor should draw the moment it begins to turn. This takes into account the power necessary to overcome the mass of the rotor into a turning force and the induction loading of the stator to create all the necessary magnetic flux to make the rotor turn. Once the rotor begins to turn the amount of amperage will decrease rapidly.

As you see, system designed LRA is 189 and system RLA is 34.

Let’s see what @1poolman1 @wireform and @Poolbreh may have to say.

 

[Lake Placid]

How does the pump respond if the HP is turned off? Does it function normally?

 

[Jimrahbe]

aaw,

Do you by chance have the more than useless SVRS version of the IntelliFlo pump??

If so, that is your main problem... While the standard versions of the IntelliFlo are the Gold Standard of pool pumps.. The SVRS version is more like the 'Brown' Standard...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ajw22]

I do notice my house lights dimming sometimes on what I guess are some of the bigger draws during the heat pump startup attempts.

I would put a recording voltage monitor on the panel and see how much of a voltage dip the HP start is causing.

The voltage dip could be causing the pump to recycle.

The root cause could be the houses electrical wiring or service cannot handle the load.

Voltage Recorder | Fluke VR1710 Voltage Quality Recorder

Detect and record parameters including RMS average, transients, flicker, and harmonics with the Fluke VR1710, a single phase voltage recorder.

www.fluke.com

 

[Lake Placid]

The root cause could be the houses electrical wiring or service cannot handle the load.

This is where I was heading.

 

[aaw]

aaw,

Do you by chance have the more than useless SVRS version of the IntelliFlo pump??

If so, that is your main problem... While the standard versions of the IntelliFlo are the Gold Standard of pool pumps.. The SVRS version is more like the 'Brown' Standard...

Thanks,

Jim R.

Nope, I guess luckily I just have the IntelliFlo/Pro3 VSF

 

[aaw]

@Lake Placid thanks for your responses! The RLA/LRA is interesting and I will share that with my electrician.

The pump functions normally when the heat pump is turned off, yes. This is only a problem between the pump and heat pump at heat pump startup time.

@ajw22 and @Lake Placid : About the "cannot handle the load" theory: why would this result in only the pump malfunctioning/rebooting, then? Nothing else gets tripped/turned off in my house when this happens. The heat pump never trips anything, so it seems like if either (1) the heat pump drew less during startup OR (2) the pump was less sensitive to these draws and didn't auto-shutoff then the problem would be solved.

 

[ajw22]

@ajw22 and @Lake Placid : About the "cannot handle the load" theory: why would this result in only the pump malfunctioning/rebooting, then? Nothing else gets tripped/turned off in my house when this happens.

The VS pump drive electronics monitor the voltage and if it over or under its parameters it goes into error mode.

The heat pump never trips anything, so it seems like if either (1) the heat pump drew less during startup OR (2) the pump was less sensitive to these draws and didn't auto-shutoff then the problem would be solved.

That is all true. But the HP draws what it draws on startup and the pump voltage sensitivity was set in the software by Pentair.

Analog devices are less sensitive to voltage fluctuations.

It may be a problem of a modern digital device in an old house with marginal electrical wiring.

How old is your Intelliflo3? See if you can convince your installer or Pentair to swap it out for an 011056 VSF pump. It is the prior generation pump, every bit as good as the Intelliflo3, and may not be as sensitive.

 

[Lake Placid]

The pump functions normally when the heat pump is turned off, yes. This is only a problem between the pump and heat pump at heat pump startup time.

This leads me to presume the pump isn’t getting the voltage it needs as both pieces of equipment are at max amp draw at startup. The amperage reduces quickly once they reach full operation but with the HP drawing the high current loads that it does at startup, it’s not a stretch to imagine the pump isn’t getting the voltage it needs. You stated lights dim when the HP starts. It’s effecting other circuits in your house. 240v equipment is particularly more sensitive to voltage anomalies.

Are the HP and the pump on the same circuit? If yes, you may speak to your electrician about the potential impact of separating the two on separate circuits although this may not help depending on how your panel is setup at the house and it’s service rating. Do any other appliances make your lights dim when on? Coffee maker, electric dryer, air conditioner?

 

[aaw]

The VS pump drive electronics monitor the voltage and if it over or under its parameters it goes into error mode.



That is all true. But the HP draws what it draws on startup and the pump voltage sensitivity was set in the software by Pentair.

Analog devices are less sensitive to voltage fluctuations.

It may be a problem of a modern digital device in an old house with marginal electrical wiring.

How old is your Intelliflo3? See if you can convince your installer or Pentair to swap it out for an 011056 VSF pump. It is the prior generation pump, every bit as good as the Intelliflo3, and may not be as sensitive.

It's new as of last year, so thanks, I will see if I can get a swap out.

 

[aaw]

This leads me to presume the pump isn’t getting the voltage it needs as both pieces of equipment are at max amp draw at startup. The amperage reduces quickly once they reach full operation but with the HP drawing the high current loads that it does at startup, it’s not a stretch to imagine the pump isn’t getting the voltage it needs. You stated lights dim when the HP starts. It’s effecting other circuits in your house. 240v equipment is particularly more sensitive to voltage anomalies.

Are the HP and the pump on the same circuit? If yes, you may speak to your electrician about the potential impact of separating the two on separate circuits although this may not help depending on how your panel is setup at the house and it’s service rating. Do any other appliances make your lights dim when on? Coffee maker, electric dryer, air conditioner?

We had to run electric out to the pool area to set this up, so creating some kind of separate circuit may not be the easiest solution (although I know very little about residential electric so I'll ask my electrician). No other appliances in the house make the lights dim. Not the dryer, not the whole house heat pump, not the mini-split, nothing except for this UltraTemp.

 

[aaw]

I found someone else with a very similar sounding problem with the exact same pump and heat pump models: Pentair VSF and Ultratemp heater shut off at same time

Can anyone think of solutions that don't involve re-wiring my house? Sounds like the cheapest options are: (1) try out a surge suppressor (or at least suggest it to my electrician and see what he says) (2) replace my pump with an older Pentair or maybe even another pump entirely

 

[ajw22]

I found someone else with a very similar sounding problem with the exact same pump and heat pump models: Pentair VSF and Ultratemp heater shut off at same time

Can anyone think of solutions that don't involve re-wiring my house? Sounds like the cheapest options are: (1) try out a surge suppressor (or at least suggest it to my electrician and see what he says) (2) replace my pump with an older Pentair or maybe even another pump entirely

You are jumping to conclusions without any diagnostic data.

You need to confirm what the voltage sag is and then if it is a voltage drop problem determine what in your electrical wiring cannot support the load.

A restructuring of your electrical panel and circuits could balance the load better.

What is the amperage of your main service panel? 100? 200? 400?

 

[Lake Placid]

No other appliances in the house make the lights dim. Not the dryer, not the whole house heat pump, not the mini-split, nothing except for this UltraTemp.

That’s good. I was inquiring to potentially determine for a floating/bad neutral EDIT: on the service/supply side. The fact that nothing else causes dimming rules this out. Please refer to and answer Allen’s questions above in post #16.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

A surge suppressor will do nothing for voltage sag. The suppressor is designed to block voltage spikes, that’s not your problem.

What you need is known as a in-rush current limiter, sometimes called a soft-start kit. However, installing a soft start kit on the heat pump may cause intermittent problems with the heat pump starting up. It’s a Ⓒrap-shoot to see if it works.

 

[aaw]

Amperage of main service panel is 200A

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Amperage of main service panel is 200A

Oh wow, that is NOT enough amperage. If the LRA of the heatpump is potentially 189A then that appliance alone is intermittently exceeding 80% of the main panel rating. No wonder your lights are dimming when it kicks on.

If you have any other large appliances, like dryers or other AC units, then your panel is overloaded. When the pool was built, the builder should have specified that the panel needed upgrading.

You have limiters options here but the correct thing to do is to have an electrician upgrade your panel. That’s not a cheap fix so you should get multiple quotes for a job like that.