Whole house power question

[pgershon]

I have noticed that when my pool pump is running, the LED light bulbs in my overhead light flicker off and on periodically. I put the LED bulbs in last summer and noticed the flickering problem. It went away all winter (when pool was not running) and came back to the day I started the pool circulation, so the cause and effect seems pretty clear. I am wondering if there is anything to do about it, or if this is the right place to ask.

My house has 300 AMP two phase power. There is one main panel that branches to two sub panels in the basement. The pool gets a 100 AMP run from the second circuit box in basement (double pole breaker). This runs underground to my pool house. At the pool house the 100 AMP service powers various lights and a hot water heater, and has a 70 AMP breaker which runs to the Jandy box. The pool pumps are each on their own breaker at the Jandy box. Pool pump is a Pentair Intelliflo VS+SRVS and spa runs with a Century 1.5 HP motor. Basement lights flicker while these pumps run. Basement lights are standard overhead 100 high hats that claim to take 100 watt PAR 38 bulbs. All have "Sunco Lighting 16 Pack Outdoor Led Flood Light Waterproof PAR38 LED Bulb, Dimmable, 13W=100W, 3000K Warm White, 1050lm, E26 Base, UL Energy Star Listed" bulbs installed (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B086Z6X7PT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1).

Any idea why the pumps might be affecting my power in the basement, or what I can do to correct the problem? Seems liek the power usage when the pool pumps run affects the power to the basement lights, momentarily. Was not notable when incandescent bulbs were present.

Issue is very notable when I am on my Peloton (which runs fine - boys just the overhead lights that flicker)

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[Toxophilite]

Are you getting a voltage drop at the leg for lights on the panel?

 

[PoolGate]

Sounds like possibly a grounding issue. Do you know if your sub panel grounds go back to the main panel? Were the sub panels run by a licensed electrician and had a county inspection?

 

[Jimrahbe]

P,

I doubt it is a voltage or grounding issue.

VS pumps generate a lot of electrical noise that can cause problems like what you are seeing.

The first thing I'd do is try a different brand of LED lights and see if the problem does not go away.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[dfwnoob]

A lot of LEDs are junk, unfortunately. They either have serious issues with spurious emissions, or they flicker without anything but the cleanest, most conditioned power. If the LEDs are the only thing doing it, I would chalk it up to lackluster LED design. The LEDs I have in my hall bathroom will flicker if someone turns a ceiling fan on.

 

[pgershon]

Actually I know from experience that the VS pump generates electrical noise that I see throughout the house. I have Insteon (power line) automation on my light switches and used to on my sprinklers (I switched in large part because of this issue). When the pool pump is on, noise from it interferes with the Insteon power line signals. Its an intermittent problem, just like the basement light bulbs.

Jimrahbe Any way you know of to better shield the noise from the pump? That would be ideal because it would fix my light switch issues (the noise periodically interferes with the automated on/off of landscape lights). I have been considering moving to an internet IP-based system, but its a big project to do that. I tried some possible solutions to isolate the pump two years ago, but the effort was a complete failure and cost me a few hundred in parts trying.

Asset that, any suggestions for a good brand of LED bulb? Again not ideal to change as I have about 45 bulbs that are affected.

 

[Bugman1401]

You may want to consider an isolation transformer or a line filter between the main house and the pool house or the VS pump(s).

 

[pgershon]

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you suggest an appropriate isolation transformer or line filter that mike work with the VS pump?

 

[JamesW]

Check the voltage to the lights and the pump.

Maybe a bad or weak neutral.

Check the voltage to the lights with the pump off and then on to see if the voltage changes.

 

[Bugman1401]

Check the voltage to the lights and the pump.

Maybe a bad or weak neutral.

Check the voltage to the lights with the pump off and then on to see if the voltage changes.

Or, it could be severe harmonics wreaking havoc on the LED electronics.
Wonder if OP could experiment with additional resistive load to confirm. OP could experiment by turning on the oven and clothes dryer to see if that squelches the harmonics and see if it has positive effect on LEDs.

 

[pgershon]

Sounds like possibly a grounding issue. Do you know if your sub panel grounds go back to the main panel? Were the sub panels run by a licensed electrician and had a county inspection?

Everything was run by licensed electrician and had county inspection back in 2001. The VS pump went in in 2011 and I noticed issues with Insteon (power line) signals a few years later, only when pool pump is running. But I believe the sub panel is grounded separately at the pool house itself, while the rest of my system is grounded in the vicinity of the basement breaker. I see the grounding rod outside by the pool equipment (see photo). Could different grounding cause my issue?

 

[pgershon]

Thanks for the comments and sorry I have been slow to respond.

Jimrahbe : Do you know of a filter that can reduce the noise? I have read other people's similar accounts of power line communication being interfered with by Intelliflo pumps. I have tried the Intermatic ET-NF Noise Filter installed between the two power leads on the pump's breaker, but it does not help. Another thought I read about was an EMI filter for 120-132 kHz and I am thinking of trying it. The problem is getting worse as it is affecting LED bulbs in all rooms of the house now, some with more regularity than others. But only when the pool pump runs. I do believe that whatever interference the pump creates has gotten worse each year as the pump has aged.

Bugman1401 : I have tried running the microwave and it does seem to have an effect (having said that, the problem is intermittent so hard to diagnose). Our dryer is a propane unit so not helpful.

 

[proavia]

How many wires run from the basement panel to the pool house subpanel?
Is the neutral bar in the pool subpanel isolated from the metal of the panel and no neutrals and grounds attached to same bar? Same should apply to any basement subpanels - only place grounds and neutral shar a common bar is in the main panel.

As I recall, a subpanel does not use its own ground rod. The subpanel ground is run back to the main panel.

Maybe pics of all panel interiors will provide a clue.

 

[pgershon]

I'll try to send pictures of all the panels. But let me be clear on one thing. The only device that causes issues is the 2011 variable speed pool pump. I have three single speed pumps (1.5 hp and 2 hp) that do not interfere with electronics in the rest of the house, as well as two heaters, a spa blower, and two SWG. I have disconnected all the other equipment and isolated the pool pump and found the pool pump still causes issues. And I changed the pool pump breaker two years ago from a standard 20 amp bi-pole breaker (shared by VS pool pump and single speed spa pump) to a 20 amp Siemans GFCI breaker for pool pump only. Did not correct the problem.

I invested a lot of time and energy into this issue two years ago trying to fix my insteon issues, but gave up without success and have been trying to remove Insteon devices in the house as they fail. But the interference with the LED bulbs creates a bigger problem, and it seems much worse this year. So I would liek to get to the bottom of the problem. Here are the two threads from other boards with my attempts. Looks liek I also tried a Uxcell AC 115/250V 20A CW4L2-20A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter with some success - I may try that again.

Pentair Intelliflo Pump causing Insteon Interference throughout house

I have a rather large installation that has evolved from X10 to Insteon over then last 20 years or so. About 75 Insteon modules now. My swimming pool equipment includes an Inteliflo pump installed in 2012. Over the last year or two it has increasingly caused trouble with my Insteon devices in var...

forum.universal-devices.com

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Pool Pump Interference - Page 2 - Indigo Domotics

forums.indigodomo.com

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[PoolGate]

How many wires run from the basement panel to the pool house subpanel?
Is the neutral bar in the pool subpanel isolated from the metal of the panel and no neutrals and grounds attached to same bar? Same should apply to any basement subpanels - only place grounds and neutral shar a common bar is in the main panel.

As I recall, a subpanel does not use its own ground rod. The subpanel ground is run back to the main panel.

Maybe pics of all panel interiors will provide a clue.

I believe if the subpanel is located remotely (not within or connected to the main building) in any way then it may have its own ground rod. That is supposed to be checked with an OHM meter however.

 

[JamesW]

Check the voltage to the lights and the pump.

Maybe a bad or weak neutral.

Check the voltage to the lights with the pump off and then on to see if the voltage changes.

 

[Toxophilite]

I had fought a flicker issue years ago that was very intermittent, dependent on what running and when running, and had lived with it until I one day looked up at my weather-head and just happen to see the heat shrink on one of the two lug connections was just slightly blistered. Got the power company to come out and verify that connection was compromised due to wind, which is common but was first for me. A re-splice fixed the flicker.

 

[pgershon]

Check the voltage to the lights and the pump.

Maybe a bad or weak neutral.

Check the voltage to the lights with the pump off and then on to see if the voltage changes.

I will look at voltage to lights with and without pump on. Do you want me looking at voltage at pump too? Is there a way to look at neutral specifically?

 

[pgershon]

I will add one other fact that may be relevant if there is a ground issue. I have digital speakers connected to my Mac in the basement. Whenever I turn them on, I get interference that believe is a ground loop issue. I have been unable to make it stop - and the issue is only in my basement, not on other computers in the house. Not sure if it relates to pool motor or not - always assumed it did not, but worth mentioning.

 

[JamesW]

Check the 120 volt supply to the malfunctioning appliances and check the 240 volt supply to the pump with the pump on and off.

The 120 volt supply should be 1/2 of the 240 volt supply with the pump on or off.

If the voltage checks out, put an oscilloscope on the power supply and see what the waveform looks like including the frequency with the pump on and off.