Water softener installation!!

[JoyfulNoise]

So this morning, before the mercury hit 100F, the autofill line was dug up -



Yikes...a little too close to the gas line for my comfort



The water softener is a double tank system - the top tank is a GAC (granular activated carbon) prefilter (chlorine/chloramine/VOC eliminator) and the lower tank is a 54k grain 10% crosslinked ion exchange resin. Control valve is a Clack valve.



The system will be plumbed (all copper & brass) into the house 1” main service loop with a line run out from the garage to the pool autofill line. There will be separate 1/4 turn shutoff valves to isolate either the house plumbing (vacation mode) or the pool autofill or both.



Still debating potassium chloride versus sodium chloride but it’s really not that important ( no renal conditions for anyone in the family). Sodium chloride is obviously the cheaper expense.

Once the pool is on a steady diet of softener water, I’ll start exchanging water in the pool with fresh water to get my CH down slowly. I have a series of flow meters I’ll be using on my submersible pump and hose bib to exchange water from the deep end while filling through the skimmer. Example -





My goal is to spend a few weeks during the summer doing a series of large volume partial drains to get the CH down. It will use more water to do it this way but I’ve run out of time and with the hot weather here and the kids swimming, there’s just no way to fully drain the pool safely or in such a way that doesn’t cause a green swamp to form.

Once the CH is corrected, the water softener will eliminate large drains in the future. Also, managing a balanced CSI is a lot easier with less acid use when the CH is below 400ppm.

 

[isriam]

there is a company that will RO your pool in phoenix. i found their name on this forum and it might save you a lot of money. i think they wanted 300 bucks to do my pool last year.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

there is a company that will RO your pool in phoenix. i found their name on this forum and it might save you a lot of money. i think they wanted 300 bucks to do my pool last year.

We have a service like that in Tucson as well. From the few people I know that used it, it was more than $300 and their CH was not fully corrected. The units have a fairly high waste fraction so they’ll wind up using several thousand gallons of makeup water from your tap anyway. Add to that the electrical cost (they plug their pumps into your house electrical) and it costs just as much to drain and refill a pool as it does to RO it. I’ll save that money to hire a tile cleaning service to come out and blast the water line tile clean.

Thanks for the offer. I’m hoping once I get the tile cleaned and the softened water in place, future cleaning will be a lot easier.

 

[Texas Splash]

I plumbed our water softener with a new branch to a spigot out back a couple years ago. I did the same - slow exchanges and top-offs as needed. It certainly did help lower my CH. It's not immediate, but over time you see the change and it's better than straight hard water adding to what's already in the pool.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I plumbed our water softener with a new branch to a spigot out back a couple years ago. I did the same - slow exchanges and top-offs as needed. It certainly did help lower my CH. It's not immediate, but over time you see the change and it's better than straight hard water adding to what's already in the pool.

Yeah, one of the downsides of buying this home back in ‘12 was the fact that the previous owners that lived here (6 years) did absolutely nothing with the house. I remember walking through it and seeing the empty service loop in the garage and thinking, “they dropped a huge mortgage on this home but didn’t put in a softener??” So now there are many fine, high priced bathroom and sink fixtures all throughout my house that are absolutely ruined from calcium scale.

I always wanted to add the softener but we had so many other issues to correct that it just kept getting pushed down the list. I figured when my pool water hit 1500ppm CH this past winter, now was a good opportunity to fix it.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Here’s the install shots -





Under the workbench to get outside -



Outside shots -







And we repurposed the old connection to the outdoor spigot to add a softened water spigot there (for car washing, etc) -



I’m going to give the unit 48 hours to stabilize and for all the hard water in the plumbing to work itself out. Then I’ll start grabbing some water samples to see how soft the water is. The pool autofill is now running on softener water so any evaporation loss will be made up with soft water.

 

[Texas Splash]

Outstanding job Matt. Give yourself a day off.

Only from work though, not TFP. We need you here.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Outstanding job Matt. Give yourself a day off.

Only from work though, not TFP. We need you here.

I would love to take credit but it was a job well-done by plumber Jorge at the local water softener company. Jorge was a few decades my elder but a great plumber and we hit it off. I did have to make a run (or two ) to the hardware store for him so he could keep sweating copper while I got all the 3/4” PVC fittings (and some brass) that we needed for the outdoor work. It was a little hairy trying to cut into that PVC line as it was sandwiched between two electrical lines and a gas line. But we managed together to cut in a tee fitting and get her all sealed up without a leak. He was funny because at one point he asked me if I could help him with the PVC work and I was “HECK YEAH!!” Then he asked if I knew anything about glue joints on PVC pipe and I was like, “Bro! I own a pool!! If I don’t know how to glue PVC by now, then I just need to sell this farm and move to the retirement home...”. And he was like, “Oh, yeah, HA!”

It was a good day. Jorge doesn’t drink (can you trust a man that doesn’t drink?? ) so he threw back a cold water and I dropped a Sam Adams Summer Ale.

 

[proavia]

Hey Matt

Nice install! One question, I don't see a drain line. Where does the waste water go to when the unit regenerates? I see a pipe coming out of the wall above and to the right of the softener that looks like it may go to a drain somewhere - maybe to the washing machine drain..... Or maybe this new fangled design somehow reuses the waste water??

Don't forget to caulk aroind the pipe going thru the stucco - otherwise the scorpions will have a new entry point.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Hey Matt

Nice install! One question, I don't see a drain line. Where does the waste water go to when the unit regenerates? I see a pipe coming out of the wall above and to the right of the softener that looks like it may go to a drain somewhere - maybe to the washing machine drain..... Or maybe this new fangled design somehow reuses the waste water??

Don't forget to caulk aroind the pipe going thru the stucco - otherwise the scorpions will have a new entry point.

Hey Gene,

Yeah, that upper right pipe in the wall is where the regen/flush water goes. When I shot the picture we hadn’t hooked up the line yet from the Clack valve to the waste pipe. It’s there now. That pipe runs a few feet over to the laundry room waste pipe so all regen water goes down the laundry room drain.

Thanks for the scorp tip!! I left the trenches outside unfilled as I want to give it 48 hours before we bury it all again. The joints are all solid with no leaks but I’m paranoid when it comes to subterranean pipes so I want to give it a day or two under operational pressure.

I have two stucco repair jobs to do (very minor) so I plan to seal up the outside an definitely caulk on the inside. The outside pipes will all need to be wrapped again and I plan to add some blue copper trace wire so anyone in the future can tone the pipes locations.

Overall it’s a great job and I’m looking forward to the softener water. I even splurged and bought myself a K-1722 test kit (Total Hardness and Calcium Hardness) so I can do actual water quality measurements....yeah, I’m a

 

[proavia]

Sounds like it's plumbed like mine. I haven't run a soft water line to the autofill yet. My softener is only 36k, so probably a little small for the task.

Yeah, them little suckers are already active here. I sprayed for them a couple weeks ago. Let me know if you are interested spraying for them yourself and I let you know what I use... kid and animal safe once it dries, good for inside and outside too. My wife goes outside when its dark with her blacklight and my propane torch. Sometimes finds one along the outer perimeter wall.

I agree - leaving the trenches open for a few days is the safe way to go.

I would think no less than you getting a K-1722. You will enjoy the soft water. Using less laundry and dishwasher detergent per load and getting much better lather in the shower.... warn your wife not to use as much shampoo or it will take forefer to rinse it out of her hair.....

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I’ll update on the backfill and landscape repair later (I made the area under the crepe myrtle look “fancy”). I have since done two tests on my softened water and both tests showed CH < 5ppm (effectively zero) by using a 50mL water sample. At 50mL the test procedure yield 5ppm/drop is R-0012 titrate and the water sample instantly turns blue after adding the R-0011L indicator.

When my K-1722 kit comes in, I’ll measure TH and CH separately to see if I can detect any magnesium. Then I’ll measure the TH/CH of the city water from my main and then from the pool. Should be interesting results as I expect the TH/CH of the pool to be quite high.

 

[Dirk]

The water softener is a double tank system - the top tank is a GAC (granular activated carbon) prefilter (chlorine/chloramine/VOC eliminator) and the lower tank is a 54k grain 10% crosslinked ion exchange resin. Control valve is a Clack valve.

Nice job. Just curious. Obviously your rig can reach the Karman Line, but is it capable of escape velocity as well?

Is that a back flow preventer after the valve? Nice. I went a bit more elaborate, but at least you or the plumber knew to use something.

My soft water loop in the garage had a handy drain line right below it. Thoughtful of the builder. But like your house, the previous owners never made use of the loop. Weird, right? Luckily my house hasn't been around long, so no damage to the fixtures (none visible, anyway).

I kept the hard water line in the loop, for two reasons. To add CH if/when needed (splash out?), but also to keep the autofill connected to water while away. I shut off interior water while traveling (had a nasty leak destroy an entire interior in a different house, so now I shut off while away), and since my softener is on that interior circuit, I wanted some way to keep the pool full while i wasn't home. Hard line comes right off the street. Is that what you were describing? Good thinking, if so.

Gotta say... you going soft is making me feel better about trying it myself. So far, my CH hasn't budged (going on 4 or 5 months or so), so I'm pleased with the setup. I managed to bring down CH with my rain water experiment (replacing a couple inches at a time), so it can be done. But I just went from 340 to 330, give or take. I'll be very curious about how your endeavor goes, starting at 1500! If that works, that'll be quite an endorsement for a softener hook up, right?

Please post your test results for the softener CH. I think mine is zero, but I'm not convinced that's even possible (though maybe, as I have my softener setting cranked up pretty good). I'd like to know if you can get that, or close, or if I'm just mis-testing mine...

I'm also very interested in your water exchange method. I think I've eliminated the need to do so for CH, but I expect I'll have to deal with salt at some point. I'll want to do something like what you're describing, because I'm hoping my plaster will never touch air. I'm thinking I'll float fresh water on top somehow, and pump salt water from the deep end.

Here's to never-increasing CH levels!!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You have a good eye Dirk! I actually have to call back the plumber to talk to him about rearranging the valves. I wanted the pool and house shut offs to be independent but the way he positioned it, they are not. The intention was to have them separated. I did not catch on the day of the installation because we were doing so many different things. Hopefully he’s willing to fix it so I don’t have to call his boss.

I debated keeping the hard water line and the softened water line running to the pool but, at the end I did not want to overcomplicate the system, create potentially mixed systems (I know, a backfkow preventer would stop that but anything can fail, right?) and I’m not sure code would allow the two systems to be connected that way even with a valve between them. If I need hard water supplied to the pool, I have a spigot close enough to it that a garden hose will work fine.

In reality, the calcium hardness level is not zero as the laws of chemistry and physics would not allow that. But, the calcium level is probably less than 1ppm which, by any practical standard, is the same as zero. It would take decades of evaporation and refill to concentrate the water enough to see any measurable level of calcium and well beyond your lifetime and mine before it became a problem for the pool surface. Considering the fragile state of the Yellowstone Caldera and the likelihood of the supervalcano erupting, life, as we know it, should be wiped out from the face of the Earth long before calcium becomes an issue.

 

[Dirk]

OK, good to know. But will lava in the pool increase its CH?!?

Regarding the mixing of the hard and soft... I ignored the code consideration, but not the incident potential. I have a primary back flow preventer, of high quality, protecting my house and city water system from pool water. It's of the testable variety, so I can rely on that. But I imagined the possible scenario where soft and hard could be exposed to each other, and so added two more back flow preventers to my setup, one for hard, one for soft. I used the cheapie variety for that purpose. I can't test those, but the primary protection is the valves (one on each line). They'd both have to be open, and one of the cheapies would have to fail at the same time, for any cross contamination. And since the two sources are really the same (both potable drinking water), the only "contamination" would be soft water and hard water mixing. Since the hard water source is before the pressure regulator, then I figure it's only going to be hard water getting into my house, not soft water getting into my garden, which is the lesser of the two evils. I suppose an open hose bib would affect the pressure, so that might not actually work that way. But as mentioned, both valves would have to be open (or failing), in addition to one of the preventers failing, and that makes my setup pretty safe in that regard.

 

[Arizonarob]

I kept the hard water line in the loop, for two reasons. To add CH if/when needed (splash out?), but also to keep the autofill connected to water while away. I shut off interior water while traveling (had a nasty leak destroy an entire interior in a different house, so now I shut off while away), and since my softener is on that interior circuit, I wanted some way to keep the pool full while i wasn't home. Hard line comes right off the street. Is that what you were describing? Good thinking, if so.

This is one of the issues I’m working on myself. When they installed the softener last year, (prior to us buying the house) the system is plumbed through the whole house with the exception of the front hose bib. There is a main whole house shut off out front, except for the irrigation system. I’m trying to figure out a way to tap into that line, and run it to the back line going to the autofill.
I may have to cut the line going from the valve to the ground and install another hose bib in line on both the front and back. That way I can run a hose from the front to back with female ends on both ends, and keep my autofill going while we’re away. Granted, it won’t be softened water going in the pool, but better then running the pump dry due to evaporation. Dunno

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Interestingly enough, my plumbing softener loop was laid out so not everything is softened water. The irrigation comes off the main through it’s own loop (with Apollo back-flow preventer) and is hard water. The external hose bibs are all hard water. As well, the kitchen sink cold water (and by extension the refrigerator water/ice supply) is also hard water. All hot water sources and water supplies to the bathrooms (hot & cold) are soft water. The laundry room also gets hot and cold soft water as well as the utility sink in there.

At first I was confused by that but it makes some sense - not everything needs soft water. Washing/rinsing dishes or vegetables with cold water in the kitchen sink doesn’t require soft water. The dishwasher gets its supply water from the hot water line so the dishwasher uses soft water. I would have liked the refrigerator water line to be soft but I’m sure the plumber who did the work did not feel like running a separate line from the softener loop when there was a easy line to access just 10ft away. I could go crazy and get one of those wall mounted RO systems for the fridge but they are horribly inefficient (one I saw used 5.5 gallons of input water to create 1 gallon of RO water how’s that for incredible inefficiency!!)

 

[Dirk]

I was disappointed when I first figured out my entire back yard, which is large, has only one bib. It's the kind of thing you don't look for when house-hunting, only find out later when you go to hook up a hose. Cheap son-of-a-b builder. What'd it save him? $50? So I dug a trench and ran PVC from the sprinkler valve manifold in front to a stand-alone bib in the back. Pain in the neck (literally!), but now it's done. Unless you're willing to dig, a hose will have to do. Just be conscious of back flow. At least use one of these hose bib dealios, if nothing else. There should be one of these on every hose bib anyway:

Shop AMERICAN VALVE Sillcock Brass 3/4-in MGHT Vacuum Breaker at Lowes.com

 

[Dirk]

Interestingly enough, my plumbing softener loop was laid out so not everything is softened water. The irrigation comes off the main through it’s own loop (with Apollo back-flow preventer) and is hard water. The external hose bibs are all hard water. As well, the kitchen sink cold water (and by extension the refrigerator water/ice supply) is also hard water. All hot water sources and water supplies to the bathrooms (hot & cold) are soft water. The laundry room also gets hot and cold soft water as well as the utility sink in there.

At first I was confused by that but it makes some sense - not everything needs soft water. Washing/rinsing dishes or vegetables with cold water in the kitchen sink doesn’t require soft water. The dishwasher gets its supply water from the hot water line so the dishwasher uses soft water. I would have liked the refrigerator water line to be soft but I’m sure the plumber who did the work did not feel like running a separate line from the softener loop when there was a easy line to access just 10ft away. I could go crazy and get one of those wall mounted RO systems for the fridge but they are horribly inefficient (one I saw used 5.5 gallons of input water to create 1 gallon of RO water how’s that for incredible inefficiency!!)

Hmm, I have a mystery valve under my kitchen sink, unused. I suspected it was either hard or soft (depending on what the sink is connected to). But I haven't figured out how to know, nor why it would be there. I guess I could test it with my trusty K-2006! I thought maybe the kitchen had both hard and soft so that one could be for the dishes (soft water for the main faucet) and the other could be for a filtered drinking water faucet (hard water for those that don't want to consume soft water). I'll have to figure it out.

My city water tastes so bad, I added the whole-house filter plus an RO under the kitchen sink. I plumbed the refrigerator's ice maker to the RO, which has it's own filter, so I can get tripled filtered water at the fridge if I want.

I didn't realize my under sink RO was using water to make water. Is that a given? Or do different models do it differently? I only use that for drinking, cooking and ice, so hopefully I'm not wasting too much. I do my dishes in unfiltered water.

 

[Arizonarob]

Matt, yeah you’re kinda stuck down there with the water being so friggen expensive. My whole house is plumbed with soft water including the backyard hose bib. Then I have an r/o system under the sink that has a stand alone water faucet on the counter for cooking/drinking water, and a line running to the fridge for ice/water. I wouldn’t have purchased a house without one, as the water here tastes awful!

You wouldn’t want to run softened water to the fridge anyway, as it would have no benefit on quality/taste. I’m surprised that both your hot and cold at the kitchen sink isn’t plumbed soft, because it would save your faucet from deteriorating over time.

Dirk, good point on the back flow on that line. I currently have that little dohikky on my hose bibs front and back. As far as trenching a line, it would be a real PITA because I have a block wall with footing on the side of my house that would be a nightmare to dig under for the line. In the bottom center of that wall is a drainage block that I can snake the hose through, but an exposed pipe would not be a good idea.
Figgure for the few weeks we go away a year, a heavy duty hose run front to back for the time we’re gone, should suffice.

My city water tastes so bad, I added the whole-house filter plus an RO under the kitchen sink. I plumbed the refrigerator's ice maker to the RO, which has it's own filter, so I can get tripled filtered water at the fridge if I want.

Take the filter out of your fridge, you do not need it, as the water from the R/O is 10 times cleaner then that filter will ever clean. It wastes you money, and can add unwanted water flow restrictions to your ice maker and water supply. You wouldn’t buy a bottle of Dasani then run it through a filter before drinking it would you?