I am at my wits end. Last year we bought this home with a 20x40 inground saltwater pool. It had not been opened at all last summer and in late sept we had to open it for our home inspector to investigate prior to us making an offer. The home inspector was trained in pools and gave the pool a good inspection. Once we moved it, it was almost time to close the pool. My daughter and son both complained of feeling shocked when getting out of the water. Long story short, we were reading as much as 4 volts in the water. Called electricians who had no answers and also contacted the utility company. The utility company turned off all power to the entire subdivision and we still showed voltage. They added additional grounding and the levels dropped to below 1 volt. You can really only sense it if you have a break in your skin somewhere from a cut. We are still reading 0.2-0.4 volts with all power off and I am just scared to death of this and want it fixed. I have called another electrician out and he has no solutions. Talked to the utility company again and they suggest it is a problem with our bonding wire. There is a copper bonding wire and the original owner says the concrete deck is bonded. If you are touching the concrete deck and it is wet, then you touch the water with your other hand you get a tingle. I have called multiple pool companies without anyone who seems to be able to help. I’m scared for my kids or other family to use it. Any suggestions?
Tingle/shock from pool
- Thread starter aseitner70
- Start date
How was/is the water bonded. Is there a light in the pool, metal ladders? There needs to be a water bond of some sort, preferably more than one.
Dan
Dan
I have delt with this sort of thing at installations across the country. Older developed areas have been the worse.
I deal with car washes, so the one thing that is common is there is lots of water.
100% of the solved cases (we had one in Kansas that they never got back to me) had to do with an improper ground or something shorting to ground in an electrical connection.
Several cases where the Neutral wire on some electrical light was tied to an Earth ground remotely because the tech said (hey, isn't earth ground supposed to be tied to Neutral?)
I am by no means a pool electrician expert but it may be the case that the bonding wire is doing its job and there is something putting current into the ground or even into the bonding wire that is a problem.
In EVERY case I have dealt with, we had multiple "master electricians" visit these locations. Only to have the "last master electrician" find the problem. One site, 6 of them on different occasions visited the site and it was not until the 6th one came and found a grounding problem with one of the lights.
I know it sounds frustrating, but you may need more eyes on this. See what you can do to pressure the utility company not to give up on you. It still may be something wrong on their end.
I deal with car washes, so the one thing that is common is there is lots of water.
100% of the solved cases (we had one in Kansas that they never got back to me) had to do with an improper ground or something shorting to ground in an electrical connection.
Several cases where the Neutral wire on some electrical light was tied to an Earth ground remotely because the tech said (hey, isn't earth ground supposed to be tied to Neutral?)
I am by no means a pool electrician expert but it may be the case that the bonding wire is doing its job and there is something putting current into the ground or even into the bonding wire that is a problem.
In EVERY case I have dealt with, we had multiple "master electricians" visit these locations. Only to have the "last master electrician" find the problem. One site, 6 of them on different occasions visited the site and it was not until the 6th one came and found a grounding problem with one of the lights.
I know it sounds frustrating, but you may need more eyes on this. See what you can do to pressure the utility company not to give up on you. It still may be something wrong on their end.
There are 2 lights and a metal ladder. There is a metal hand rail on one end going down the steps and there is a slide and diving board. All of which we are told is bonded. ?
You need to have the electrician start by verifying good continuity between the ladders, in-pool light and decking. My suspicion is there is no bonding grid in the deck even though they told you there was, or it has been compromised somehow. If all components are properly bonded, then there will be no voltage gradients or potential between the deck, water, ladders and light. Right now there is enough of a voltage differential that you become the conductor between them and that is why you feel a shock.
Dan
Dan
How frustrating and scary 
Above all else do NOT allow anyone with a pace maker near the pool. Not safe for them at all. I would also keep the kids (well everyone for that matter) out of the pool until this is sorted out.
I hope you keep us in the loop as you research and learn what it going on. This will help others in the future as well. It looks like you have a direction to go with the advice above (thanks guys!).
Kim
Above all else do NOT allow anyone with a pace maker near the pool. Not safe for them at all. I would also keep the kids (well everyone for that matter) out of the pool until this is sorted out.
I hope you keep us in the loop as you research and learn what it going on. This will help others in the future as well. It looks like you have a direction to go with the advice above (thanks guys!).
Kim
CJadamec
TFP Expert
Dan and melnic have really given solid advise. My first guess reading you story is there is an issue with the water bond either it was disconnected or something happened to it. But the steps are the same you need to retrace and verify everything is bonded together. Rather than checking for voltage start looking at resistance between bonded parts.
The neutral to ground cross over is also a very really and very time consuming thing to snuff out if it's there.
Another good thing to check is if someone connected the bonding grid to the green electrical ground wire in the equipment sub panel.
Another thing to try is take a piece of bare copper wire and set it up so it is both in the water and resting on the deck or even better bring it back to the bonding wire at the pump. See if that fixes the tingle.
The neutral to ground cross over is also a very really and very time consuming thing to snuff out if it's there.
Another good thing to check is if someone connected the bonding grid to the green electrical ground wire in the equipment sub panel.
Another thing to try is take a piece of bare copper wire and set it up so it is both in the water and resting on the deck or even better bring it back to the bonding wire at the pump. See if that fixes the tingle.
Thank you all so much. Just a note on an empirical study we just performed. The power went off to us and at least 5 miles from here. Everyone was without power. We immediately went with the voltage meter and tested the readings with the water and the concrete deck. All the readings measured 0.002 to 0.004 when the power was off. None of us could detect any feeling of a tingle. Immediately after the power came back on, we reameasured again at every location we measured before. All the readings were higher and ranged from 0.485 to 0.761. All of us could feel the sting/tingle again when your finger/toe exits the water and you step onto the wet concrete.
Yowza - I’m no electrician, but I would try to isolate the problem by turning off breakers one at a time to identify which circuit os feeding voltage to the pool. Start with breakers feeding pool lights and anything else in vicinity of the water until you find one which cuts the voltage in the water. Sounds to me like you have a short combined with a bonding issue. Again...I'm no electrician but its a place to start.
So, the main power to your house has a switch at the top of your breaker panel. That will cut the 208 going to your house. Your house typically gets 2 of 3 phases. The neutral is not usually switched, that is then tied to ground in the breaker panel.
You mentioned that they cut power to the entire subdivision. You mentioned when they did that, it showed voltage. What was the voltage?
I really wonder how well of a job they did disconnecting power to the subdivision.
If you have a tingle when your mains is shut off at the breaker panel, then you can eliminate the Hot wires inside the house. You can't eliminate the power coming from the transformer (green box if buried lines) to your house, and you can't eliminate something wrong with a neighbor. Does your neighbor have any outlets running into their yard? Any nearby street lights?
You mentioned that they cut power to the entire subdivision. You mentioned when they did that, it showed voltage. What was the voltage?
I really wonder how well of a job they did disconnecting power to the subdivision.
If you have a tingle when your mains is shut off at the breaker panel, then you can eliminate the Hot wires inside the house. You can't eliminate the power coming from the transformer (green box if buried lines) to your house, and you can't eliminate something wrong with a neighbor. Does your neighbor have any outlets running into their yard? Any nearby street lights?
Kim brought this thread to my attention, because I had just asked her about a similar situation with one of my neighbors. This afternoon, my neighbor sent me the message below re what they believe solved their mystery. Maybe it will be helpful here or to others in the future.
"I had centerpoint come out again today. Their CAP pole made another huge scary buzzing electricity sound with popping noises. They checked around our property and were stumped. We happened to have an electrician arrive at the same time. They conversed back and forth and still didn't have an answer. So, I went to the pool store and the owner explained a great deal about bonding and saltwater systems. My husband decided to go through all of the wiring again and discovered a copper wire curled up in our flowerbed. It wasn't until then, that he realized that ATT removed our pools bonding wire and replaced it with their ground wire!! This has seriously been a very trying ordeal."
"I had centerpoint come out again today. Their CAP pole made another huge scary buzzing electricity sound with popping noises. They checked around our property and were stumped. We happened to have an electrician arrive at the same time. They conversed back and forth and still didn't have an answer. So, I went to the pool store and the owner explained a great deal about bonding and saltwater systems. My husband decided to go through all of the wiring again and discovered a copper wire curled up in our flowerbed. It wasn't until then, that he realized that ATT removed our pools bonding wire and replaced it with their ground wire!! This has seriously been a very trying ordeal."
A bond can absolutely induce current, the tingle reflects a corruption of the bond.
When I’m in an car wash, I look at the gear & think
these guys are a sister industry, utilities, waste water regulations, pipes, controlled actuators, etc..
So initially with the power off to the entire subdivision, we were reading 4-5 volts in the pool and around our box. Then actually all 10 houses in the neighborhood was also reading voltage at every buried box. They added additional grounding thru the neighborhood because they said it would be impossible to isolate the issue. Kept referring to it as stray current. ? And now, another reprensative from TVA (Tn valley authority) says those numbers were not actually valid because they did not disconnect the neutral when they did that. So, that’s why last night during this major power outage, I thought that would essentially be the same as disconnecting the neutral. ? There is a neighbor a few houses down that has some outdoor lights. There are no street lights in this subdivision.
CJadamec
TFP Expert
Actually the vast majority of residential power is what is referred to as split phase. The power to your house is generally delivered from 1 out of 3 phases on the pole, a lot of times there is only one wire at the top of the pole and there is only a single phase to get power from. The residential transformer, either the white can at the top of the pole or the green box if your lines are buried , steps the voltage of the main transmission line down to the 120 volts that is on each of the hot wires going to your house. The neutral wire returns back to the secondary coil of the transformer. The neutral wire and case of the transformer should also be connected to an earth ground. The link in my signature does a very good job of explaining common household power equipment and has good pictures.
You mentioned this earlier, but I will repeat it. There is only one place in a residential home where the White neutral wire and Green ground wire should be connected and that is where the utility power enters the house. Typically this will be on one of two places. Either in the main breaker panel or if you have an outdoor breaker next to your meter it will be connected there. Having more than one neutral to ground connection elsewhere in the house can cause the Green ground wire to be energized as a neutral wire which can cause all sorts of headaches and isn't safe.
Part of the problem with using your main breaker to isolate power from the utility grid as a troubleshooting measure is that the neutral wire is always connected to the transformer and bypasses the breaker and the meter.
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More to the point of the bonding and tingle issue as Poolguy put to a point, the fact that there is a tingle means that something in the bonding grid either isn't connected or isn't connected effectively.
CJ, good explanation. I was going to put something similar up about this too but you beat me to it.
Stray voltages in the ground are not always caused by the power co., cable co., phone co. etc. Back in 2003 there was a complete blackout in the northeast for several hours and in some cased a couple days. There was absolutely no electric to be had anywhere in the grid. In fact where I live there was no electric for at least 100 miles. I went to a customers house that I had fixed a "tingle" issue earlier that year and did a quick test to show the customer that it was not the Power Co that caused the problem. When I unhooked the water bond I was able to measure a couple of volts differential between the pool water and the ground (lawn) around the pool.
Getting back to the original posters concerns...There is something compromised in the bonding grid around the pool allowing something, be it the water or the deck, to have a higher voltage than the other. This needs to be evened out by ensuring the connection between them is good. The lights and ladders (if metal) should all be connected to the bonding grid. The lights should have a separate bond wire in the conduit connected directly to the light nich (if it is metal) or the light housing. This will run back up in the conduit to the deck box where it will be connected to the bonding loop around the pool. The ladder cups should have bonding wires in them to bond the ladders to the loop as well. This should effectively bond the water to the deck and all metal objects (ladders, etc).
Dan
Stray voltages in the ground are not always caused by the power co., cable co., phone co. etc. Back in 2003 there was a complete blackout in the northeast for several hours and in some cased a couple days. There was absolutely no electric to be had anywhere in the grid. In fact where I live there was no electric for at least 100 miles. I went to a customers house that I had fixed a "tingle" issue earlier that year and did a quick test to show the customer that it was not the Power Co that caused the problem. When I unhooked the water bond I was able to measure a couple of volts differential between the pool water and the ground (lawn) around the pool.
Getting back to the original posters concerns...There is something compromised in the bonding grid around the pool allowing something, be it the water or the deck, to have a higher voltage than the other. This needs to be evened out by ensuring the connection between them is good. The lights and ladders (if metal) should all be connected to the bonding grid. The lights should have a separate bond wire in the conduit connected directly to the light nich (if it is metal) or the light housing. This will run back up in the conduit to the deck box where it will be connected to the bonding loop around the pool. The ladder cups should have bonding wires in them to bond the ladders to the loop as well. This should effectively bond the water to the deck and all metal objects (ladders, etc).
Dan
So all the bonding is below all the concrete. Is there any easy way to accomplish all this????
CJadamec
TFP Expert
Not all the bonding is below the concrete.
There is bonding at the equipment pad with bare copper wire going to the outside of the pump motor casing and the outside of the power supply for the SWG or the SWG cell itself.
The metal anchor cups for the ladders in the deck should be bonded and basically a direct connection to the bonding grid that is buried in the concrete.
There should be a bonding wire in the junction box for each of your lights.
I would start be taking resistance measurements between all these points. You are looking for very low numbers in resistance.
I would also try literally connecting a wire to the exposed bonding wire connected you your pump and drop the other end of at least a foot of bare copper into the pool water and see if the tingle is still there.
Next thing I would do is wet down an area of the deck with pool water then take that wire and used something flat and heavy to press the wire onto the wet area of the pool deck. Now check for a tingle/voltage between the pool water and that wet area of deck.
The first wire test checks your water bond. The second test checks the bonding of your deck.
There is bonding at the equipment pad with bare copper wire going to the outside of the pump motor casing and the outside of the power supply for the SWG or the SWG cell itself.
The metal anchor cups for the ladders in the deck should be bonded and basically a direct connection to the bonding grid that is buried in the concrete.
There should be a bonding wire in the junction box for each of your lights.
I would start be taking resistance measurements between all these points. You are looking for very low numbers in resistance.
I would also try literally connecting a wire to the exposed bonding wire connected you your pump and drop the other end of at least a foot of bare copper into the pool water and see if the tingle is still there.
Next thing I would do is wet down an area of the deck with pool water then take that wire and used something flat and heavy to press the wire onto the wet area of the pool deck. Now check for a tingle/voltage between the pool water and that wet area of deck.
The first wire test checks your water bond. The second test checks the bonding of your deck.
this is a great post w a lot of great insightful info.
the majority of the posts w voltage issues around the pool seem to be the older pools w metal ladders, metal steps, etc. Since these are indeed older pools, [20-30 yrs], either the bonding wires have had the time to corrode and or separate, or mechanically cut by a cable/construction company that hire contractors only interested in their work and cut and snipe existing wires to make theirs work. A perfect example is where the AT&T rep cut a pool copper bonding wire...Also, much of the grounding and bonding wires have concrete poured onto them when they do the deck. Then if the deck is later repaired and jackhammered, they cut all the mesh [and copper lines] to remove the broken pieces of concrete. Again, look for any new or recent construction.
My guess is that w time, something shifted, corroded and was cut or wore through. If you had the luxury of living in the house for many yrs and new where cable guys or other vendors did work, then those would be some starting points. Since you don't, see if you can find out if any recent new construction was done, or irrigation systems installed. Bottomline is something happened and you have voltage leak.
Chuck CJ provided 2 good ways to test your water and deck bonding. That's a for sure start w out a jackhammer to examine each run...
What you need is someone that understands how pools are to be correctly bonded, then has troubleshooting skills to test one area at a time until the problem is isolated.
the majority of the posts w voltage issues around the pool seem to be the older pools w metal ladders, metal steps, etc. Since these are indeed older pools, [20-30 yrs], either the bonding wires have had the time to corrode and or separate, or mechanically cut by a cable/construction company that hire contractors only interested in their work and cut and snipe existing wires to make theirs work. A perfect example is where the AT&T rep cut a pool copper bonding wire...Also, much of the grounding and bonding wires have concrete poured onto them when they do the deck. Then if the deck is later repaired and jackhammered, they cut all the mesh [and copper lines] to remove the broken pieces of concrete. Again, look for any new or recent construction.
My guess is that w time, something shifted, corroded and was cut or wore through. If you had the luxury of living in the house for many yrs and new where cable guys or other vendors did work, then those would be some starting points. Since you don't, see if you can find out if any recent new construction was done, or irrigation systems installed. Bottomline is something happened and you have voltage leak.
Chuck CJ provided 2 good ways to test your water and deck bonding. That's a for sure start w out a jackhammer to examine each run...
What you need is someone that understands how pools are to be correctly bonded, then has troubleshooting skills to test one area at a time until the problem is isolated.