Stenner Pump Controller/Automation

[MyAZPool]

Does anybody recall seeing any threads regarding the automation of a stenner pump (Acid or Chlorine)? I think that I have seen some here in the past but I have been searching for a while now and no joy.

Looks like my dumb IntellipH, listens on the bus (according to some conversations that I saw over on GitHub) but does not send out any packets. So no feedback I guess.

I think that all that I would really like to do at this point is:
1. Perform a manual dosing.
2. Increase or decrease the dispense amount (how many seconds the pump doses), when in auto or manual mode.

I'm all about adding any additional components or any serious modifications if need be, as I will be starting to get more familiar with the capabilities of Raspi hopefully within a week or so, once I get a few things set up and tested here on the back end.

Calling @cmc0619 , @Katodude , @setsailsoon , @kyleaa @jonpcar ?

Thanks...
r.

 

[setsailsoon]

I only know enough about this stuff to be dangerous. I've messed around with Raspberry Pi, Arduino, and ESP 32. I like the latter because of the easy communications capability and lots of I/O. Built in WiFi makes it easy to set up a simple web page for remote control. There's lots of libraries and software since it uses the same programming language as Arduino. This probably isn't what you were really asking about but thought I'd throw it in. I have set up a web page from the ESP 32 that I tested in breadboard and plan to use to control my currently manual drain valve by putting a sprinkler valve in series with it. Next step would be to add another ESP 32 inside the skimmer lid that's connected to a level sensor and use it to automatically open the drain valve via WiFi. I don't think it's that far from working and a natural extension might be to control the stenner pump.

Chris

 

[MyAZPool]

I only know enough about this stuff to be dangerous. I've messed around with Raspberry Pi, Arduino, and ESP 32. I like the latter because of the easy communications capability and lots of I/O. Built in WiFi makes it easy to set up a simple web page for remote control. There's lots of libraries and software since it uses the same programming language as Arduino. This probably isn't what you were really asking about but thought I'd throw it in. I have set up a web page from the ESP 32 that I tested in breadboard and plan to use to control my currently manual drain valve by putting a sprinkler valve in series with it. Next step would be to add another ESP 32 inside the skimmer lid that's connected to a level sensor and use it to automatically open the drain valve via WiFi. I don't think it's that far from working and a natural extension might be to control the stenner pump.

Chris
You're right, not exactly what I was looking for but that's okay. I like the sharing of the information anyway. Thanks... Every bit of information gleaned is a plus.
And I'm in the same boat as far as "experience" with some of this, goes.

I have elected to first try the newer Raspi 4B. It also has built-in WiFi and Bluetooth although not really sure I will use any of that initially. After some initial testing, I'm most likely going to keep the pi right here on my desk and connect via a wired RS485 connection to the IntelliCenter bus. Thanks god, there are some really good guys on this site, that have graciously elected to help me to venture into this new world.

I'm sort of in an exploratory phase to see what the possibilities might be to convert my dumb IntellipH into something a little smarter. Something that I can communicate with in order to perform some basic dosing and dispensing amount functions. If I have to install some sort of add-on board, controller, whatever inside the ipH controller housing to make it a little smarter, that's fine. I'm just not smart enough to figure this out on my own. But I can follow instructions fairly well lol....

Keep all posted on the progress of your project using that sprinkler valve. Very interesting...

Thanks again and be safe...
r.

 

[cmc0619]

It could be done. The only problem I see is it'd be a little complicated. The issue is you get no data from the IntelliPH device. All it's ORP calculations and pH calculations are kept in the box. If you were to use some sort of external system to augment that the only input you have into an external system(read: raspberry pi) is the IntelliPH's relay firing to run the peristalic pump. So you could take that as a signal and use it to trigger the external system to know when it was time to run the pump instead. Maybe add a couple of seconds to it after it gets the relay off signal from the IntelliPH. Not sure you could run it less though. And if you were sure A) Intelliflo was running, B) Not in SPA mode & C) SWG is NOT running you could do a manual dose override as well. In fact, you could get that info from the nodejs-poolController system as a failsafe for a manual pumping same as the IntelliPH does.

 

[setsailsoon]

It could be done. The only problem I see is it'd be a little complicated. The issue is you get no data from the IntelliPH device. All it's ORP calculations and pH calculations are kept in the box. If you were to use some sort of external system to augment that the only input you have into an external system(read: raspberry pi) is the IntelliPH's relay firing to run the peristalic pump. So you could take that as a signal and use it to trigger the external system to know when it was time to run the pump instead. Maybe add a couple of seconds to it after it gets the relay off signal from the IntelliPH. Not sure you could run it less though. And if you were sure A) Intelliflo was running, B) Not in SPA mode & C) SWG is NOT running you could do a manual dose override as well. In fact, you could get that info from the nodejs-poolController system as a failsafe for a manual pumping same as the IntelliPH does.

Could you use a current sensing relay also to detect when the pump is on? Not sure if it's better but may avoid tearing into the system to find the relay.

 

[cmc0619]

The way I’m thinking of it you’d have to patch into the pumps power cord to provide power when you want to override the IntelliPH logic with the pis. So at that point you’ve already found the relay output. The IntelliPH relay that sends power to the pump is an external cord. No digging around required.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ron,

Seems to me the simplest thing to do is take the iph controller out of the circuit and just use your IntelliCenter to tell the iph pump to run and for how long. Of course the would remove the need to a Raspberry pi or even an apple pi...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[cmc0619]

Ron,

Seems to me the simplest thing to do is take the iph controller out of the circuit and just use your IntelliCenter to tell the iph pump to run and for how long. Of course the would remove the need to a Raspberry pi or even an apple pi...

Thanks,

Jim R.

I assume you'd lose the ph stats but at this point we know our pools well enough that you could just toss it in an IntelliCenter schedule. Not NEARLY as much fun though.

 

[jonpcar]

Ron...for some reason my alerts do not always alert me to “call outs” or posts to threads I am watching...not sure what the problem is, my alerts seem to all be set correctly. Anyway just saw this thread in the forum and investigated.

I don’t think I have seen any Stenner automation threads except for peripherally related Stenner TIMER threads. As you know, I am working on one...but at this point, it would be really tough for someone to start with what I have since I use a Photon AND much of the interaction is based on an Android app (framed by my son-in-law) which I edit and make changes to...but at this point could not duplicate or transfer. They are visiting again later this summer, haha.

if the Github repository you are referring to is the RS485 bus based pool controller project, I am only familiar with it...no details. I don’t know if that project requires its hardware/software to be the “master” of the RS485 bus or if that project allows itself to attach itself to an existing RS485 bus and arbitrate for control of it. In my case, my pool controller will be the master of the bus and it simplifies things tremendously for me. If that project does the former...it seems that you will have a lot of problems hooking anything up to that bus because you aren’t going to disconnect your intellicenter.

cmc’s suggestion about monitoring the power supply for your Intellichem is a good one to know when your hardware is actually injecting...but what to do with that information (and how) is another challenge.

 

[MyAZPool]

Thanks very much for all the comments. I appreciate it. Based on the comments, there seems to be some misconceptions about how the IntellipH actually operates.

1. The IntellipH does not measure anything. Only the IntelliChem does that. And, as I understand from reading many of the threads on TFP, there are all sorts of ORP sensor issues with the IntelliChem that I won't get into here. That is why I opted for the IntellipH versus the IntelliChem.

2. So, simply, there are three major components to the IntellipH. The acid tank, the peristaltic pump and the control panel. When an IntelliChlor is present as in my case, the control panel can be used to control the IntelliChlor as well but forget this feature. I perform IntelliChlor functions through the automation.

3. The IntelliChlor power/control cable passes through the IntellipH control panel. The IntellipH uses the IntelliChlor transformer (located in the automation load center) for power and then passes that power to the IntelliChlor cell. I can certainly change the fact that the IntelliChlor power and control pass through the IntellipH control panel. Essentially "separating them" as @Jimrahbe points out above. That's pretty doable. So instead of the two being wired together in series, each device would draw it's power from the transformer individually and the RS-485 signals for the IntelliChlor would no longer 'pass through" the IntellipH controller. BUT.... That now presents another hurdle that I need to get over.

That stupid IntellipH controller uses the IntelliChlors' flow switch somehow to determine if water is being pumped through the system. Somehow, that is why I have to perform manual overide dosing in the winter when the IntelliChlor cell temperature flow/temp sensor will not allow the IntelliChlor to generate.
This "issue" was touched on by @Jimrahbe here:

Get IntelliPH working without InteliChlor?

Anyone know how to get the IntelliPH working without an IntelliChlor attached (do have the controller for the IntelliChlor, but won't auto feed the IntelliPH without IntelliChlor).

www.troublefreepool.com

and @Dirk, here:

Being Held Hostage By My Pool!!! (aka Intelliph installation)

The tank is flush with the base except where the pump is located. That width is very close to 17”. Also, to the other question, yes, you need an Intellichlor to operate the IntellipH.

www.troublefreepool.com

4. Okay, with that said. Let's assume that IntellipH power is ONLY energized when the IntelliChlor transformer is energized (which of course means that the filter pump is operating), and I have somehow tricked the the ipH into believing that it has an operating IntelliChlor. Great.

5. Currently, if I want to change (+/-) the despensing amount (how many seconds the controller tells the p. pump to run), in either manual mode or auto mode, I have to walk out to the pad, insure the filter pump circuit is ON, (so there is power to the ipH controller) and make the change on the ipH controller.

6. Also, if I want to do a "manual dosing" (I currently have to do this in the winter when water temp prevents the IntelliChlor cell from operating), I also have to do this at the ipH controller.

7. Those are the two things that I would like to do remotely (from my desktop or an iPhone app).

I had already suspected that I might need to "separate" the way the IntelliChlor and the IpH are wired together. But need to find a way to trick the ipH into believing there is an operating IntelliChlor. Hmmmm Again, auto mode will only work when the ipH controller gets the right information from the IntelliChlor cell. That is specifically the reason I'm sure that the IntellipH listens on the bus for certain packets, but it does not send out any packets.

If anyone is interested, or has any question regarding how all this kind of works, the manual can be found here:

IntellipH Acid Dispenser System Installation and User’s Guide

In summary, the challenges are:
1. Perform a manual dosing remotely without having to do it at the ipH control panel.
2. Increase or decrease the dispense amount (how many seconds the pump doses), when in auto or manual mode, again remotely without having to perform this function at the ipH control panel.
3. And lastly, find a way to let the ipH controller think the IC-60 is operating normally, so that auto mode dosing is possible if separation of the two units are mandatory. If I can perform challenges 1 and 2 above without separation, then so much the better. I thought about using a dummy plug in the ipH controller where the IC-60 plugs in as suggested I think by Dirk, but not sure it's as simple as that. I think that those RS-485 packets that the ipH is listening for, are coming from the IC-60 but not 100% convinced of that. Some testing is warranted on this issue.
r.

 

[MyAZPool]

Ron,

Seems to me the simplest thing to do is take the iph controller out of the circuit and just use your IntelliCenter to tell the iph pump to run and for how long. Of course the would remove the need to a Raspberry pi or even an apple pi...

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks Jim. I only wish it was that simple, but I think you touched on it in an earlier thread (see my comments above).
After reading those comments, if you can think of a way to trick the ipH into believing that it has an operating IC, that might be half the battle. Then I could separate the two as you suggest.
Thanks much!!
r.

 

[MyAZPool]

Could you use a current sensing relay also to detect when the pump is on? Not sure if it's better but may avoid tearing into the system to find the relay.

Chris,
Actually, I wouldn't need to do that. I could wire it (using jumpered relays), so the ipH controller has power anytime the pump circuit is energized. But I need to first get past the fact that the ipH controller (I believe) is listening for packets from the IC-60, so I can separate the two. See my comments in post #10 above.
Thanks....
r.

 

[cmc0619]

Ok. I may still be missing something here. This thing is starting to sound like a glorified Stenner. So what if you cut the power cord in half and just wire the pump to whatever 24V powered switch and throw the iPH controller away. What functionality do you lose in that scenario?

 

[MyAZPool]

Ok. I may still be missing something here. This thing is starting to sound like a glorified Stenner. So what if you cut the power cord in half and just wire the pump to whatever 24V powered switch and throw the iPH controller away. What functionality do you lose in that scenario?

Cliff,
If I were to do that, then I no longer have the ability to adjust the dose amount (this is the time that the p. pump actually pumps acid, every hour that the filter pump circuit is energized).
100% dosage = 60 seconds of P. pump run time.
0% dosage = 0 seconds of P. pump run time.

The IntellipH controller adds acid to the pool every hour. The dispense amount is based
on the user’s settings. The amount of acid added each hour can be quickly changed by
pressing either the MORE or LESS button with a range of 1% - 100% in 1% increments. If
0% is selected, no acid will be dispensed.

Maybe, it's me that is missing something. So in a stenner, how is dose amount set? Right now (given current pool and atmospheric conditions), my "dosage" is set at 70%. That means that the p. pump doses for 42 seconds every hour, on the hour (beginning on the second hour) that the filter pump circuit is energized.

So if I didn't use the controller, what would be the alternative method of commanding the P. pump to actuate and to set the amount of run time.
H'mm, now I think I might get where you are going with this. But it's pretty fuzzy.

Can you elaborate on how I would control when (and how long) the P. pump runs?
Thanks much...
r..

Additional thought. Yea, I don't care how I control the p. pump. Just as long as I can tell it when and how long to run in a manual dose or auto dose mode, from my desktop or iPhone, then I will have accomplished my goal. If that means, ripping the ipH controller off of the wall and throwing it in my "Later for ebay sale" box, I have no problem with that.

 

[jonpcar]

I may be missing something here, too: like ALL the background necessary to understand ANY of the conversation, haha.

Ron, thanks for giving me the motivation to look at that IntellipH manual. It is very timely information as I am exactly at the point where I am deciding how to implement a dispersed scheduling (hourly or possibly down to every 15 minutes) of my liquid chlorine using a similar technique. I wasn’t really considering it for acid but maybe now...

After look at the manual, your pump is the equivalent of a 45 gallons/day Stenner pump. The pump’s MAXIMUM rate, NOT allowed by IntellipH, is: (4oz/min * 60 mins/hour * 24 Hours/day) / (128 oz/ gal) = 45 gpd (not allowed).

Your IntellipH maximum allowed dispersal rate only allows only one-minute-of-dispersal-per-hour which is 1/60th of the previous calculation: 1/60 * 45gpd = .75 gallons/day = 96 oz/day. This assumes that the IntellipH can run all 24 hours if your pump is running for all 24 hours. That’s an assumption that is not clear in the manual. Can the IntellipH run for all 24 hours, or is it limited to the 8-hours/day that is illustrated (but not specified) in the manual?

With that background, here is how Stenner pumps are used. For a Stenner pump, the user chooses how long he wants to run it and when...it’s as simple as that...the user has to do the math, and setup the timing mechanism. The user also is responsible for making sure there is flow (pump running).

Some Stenners come with a built in timer (econT) but the user is still responsible for all run rate calculations. The econT comes with 24 timers that could be setup similarly (like the IntellipH) to run every hour/every day for a certain amount of time...however the minimum run time is one minute so that would require use of one of the lower flow stenners (ex ET210F dispenses .11oz/min) for use with MA dispersals. Unlike the IntellipH, there is no provision for dialing back those programmed dispersal times. The timers would have to be changed manually.

But all that doesn't help with your problem...but it helped me to understand what you are dealing with, haha.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Ron,

My initial thought is to use the iph , just like a Stenner.. Junk the controller and just turn the iph pump on and off using a schedule from your IntelliCenter.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[jonpcar]

Like Jim’s...but perhaps a little more elegant if you want to keep your existing functionality AND dig (a little bit) into the guts of your IntellipH:

Use a “normally closed” relay that keeps your “hot wire” to your IntellipH acid pump under existing IntellipH control. Switch the relay to the “normally open” side using some existing functionality (currently unused switch/relay) on your intellicenter to a “hot” feed for that acid pump. Don’t know if you can condition that function with a “pool pump running” check in your intellicenter software?

Remember though, 1 minute doses 4 ozs...that’s pretty fast...don't mess up your timer accidentally, no checks...

 

[Jimrahbe]

jon,

The stock relays in the IntelliCenter, EasyTouch, etc are all SPST with only Normally open contacts...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[jonpcar]

Jim, the “normally closed” NC relay that I am talking about adding would be a special (not that special) relay installed inside the IntellipH...the control for that “new NC relay” would be one of the “normal relays inside the intellicenter”. But, I really don’t know anything about what relays and voltages inside the intellicenter that are available for user “use”.

 

[cmc0619]

Here's how I'd do it on my controller. I'd cut off the power cord (or try to find a suitable connector for it), hook up +24V DC from a power source to my common port of one of my pi hat relays, and connect the 0V DC wire from the power source to the p. pump, I'd then connect the +24V DC end of the p. pump to the NO port on my pi hat relay.

I'd then setup a timer in my node-red software that runs every hour, flips the relay for 42 seconds, that would allow the +24V waiting at the relays common port to flow through to the NO side which completes the circuit. The p. pump would then start spinning which dispenses acid into the pool. After 42 seconds the node-red software would open the relay, breaking the connection and the p. pump would stop. This would be my initial test

Now it's time to fancy it up. I'd drag a dial to my node-red dashboard and do some maths to make the timer adjustable from the dashboard and add a button to the dashboard labeled 'Sour Squirt' which would just run the thing on demand for 30 seconds. I'd then fancy it up by interfacing it with the nodejs-poolcontroller software and add checks like is SWG running, check for SPA mode, etc. Safety stuff.

Like Jim said you can probably do the same thing directly with your Intellicenter. I'm not at all familiar with them but if you can set its programs to run in the seconds and feed it appropriate power to one of the relays you could go that route as well. I gave the Intellicenter manual a once over looks like there is 24V relays but they're AC.

I added a picture of what it'd look like in node-red and a screenshot of my iphone.