Spa started draining into pool or fountain complicated setup

[Alwayshad1]

Good morning,
So my setup which looks like a spider web was designed so that either the spa or the pool could be heated. The pool and spa have separate pumps and filters and the fountain is tied into the pool system. A few weeks ago we wanted to use the heater for the spa and noticed the control panel had condensation in it. Tried swiping the screen and touching what I thought were the correct settings until the heater came on but basically could not tell what I was pressing. After awhile we shut it off. The next day I manually turned on the spa pump because I was adding chemicals and the heater came on by itself. Tried swiping the control panel to shut it off but didn’t work so I just turned off the pump and it went off. Ever since then water has been draining back into pool or the fountain. I replaced the control panel last week and it took a long time to get the spa pump primed and running by filling bucket with hose. Eventually it did though. Now I am still having problems water draining back into pool or the spa. This is my setup and I honestly don’t remember if I had turned any valves off or on trying to correct it. By looking at the setup does it appear that all are correct? It is setup now so that it would heat the spa. I can provide additional pics if needed. Thanks in advance, Mike

 

[Alwayshad1]

Update…so about an hour ago I shut the fountain valve off so it is not flowing and noticed the spa water level has risen slightly. If this continues I will let it go but if it goes higher than where I want it, should I just turn it on again to drain it? Could the problem be that divertor valve and what is that clear valve below the fountain valve…could that be the problem?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Mike,

The clear valve in the fountain line, is a check valve.. It is most likely there to keep the fountain from draining back into the pool..

I tried to draw out a diagram so that I can understand your water flow.. You have quite a cluster there..

Please show us more pics from both sides, so we can see things like your tab feeder and get a better feel for where all the pipes go...

Also, please let me know if the upper heater connection is the input to the heater..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Alwayshad1]

Mike,

The clear valve in the fountain line, is a check valve.. It is most likely there to keep the fountain from draining back into the pool..

I tried to draw out a diagram so that I can understand your water flow.. You have quite a cluster there..

Please show us more pics from both sides, so we can see things like your tab feeder and get a better feel for where all the pipes go...

Also, please let me know if the upper heater connection is the input to the heater..

Thanks,

Jim R.

So right now only the pool pump is running. The water level in the spa has come up about 6 inches. It looks like the water level in the pool has come down a bit but the water level in the fountain has stayed even with the top ledge of the fountain which is normal. The top line is the inlet to the heater. Also this setup is about three years old and I have never used or messed with the tab feeder for what it’s worth. The installer set it up and basically said that the only valves I would need to move was if I wanted to heat the spa make sure the valves spa in and spa out were open and pool spa in and pool spa out were closed. Vice versa if I wanted to heat the pool. I only heated the pool once about a year ago, normally it is always set to spa heat in open and spa heat out open. Thanks for your help on this, Mike

 

[Jimrahbe]

Mike,

Does your Spa normally spillover into your pool, when not heating??

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Alwayshad1]

Mike,

Does your Spa normally spillover into your pool, when not heating??

Thanks,

Jim R.

No, it is a separate system does not spill over. As you can see in this picture I just took, the water level now is way up more than it should be so I am going to have to turn on the fountain maybe just a bit to see if some water will drain back down, you can see how much I opened the fountain. I can see that the pool level has gone down about an inch since last post and the water level in fountain has not changed.

 

[Alwayshad1]

No, it is a separate system does not spill over. As you can see in this picture I just took, the water level now is way up more than it should be so I am going to have to turn on the fountain maybe just a bit to see if some water will drain back down, you can see how much I opened the fountain. I can see that the pool level has gone down about an inch since last post and the water level in fountain has not changed.

So 20 minutes later the spa continued to fill starting to get near the edge of the deck. Walked back to fountain valve and heard noises like water moving in the pipes down by the bottom pipes by the heater. Looked in heater did not see any water or leaks. Turned fountain valve slightly more open and water noise stopped. Will check water level in spa in about 20 minutes to see if any change.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Mike,

I drew everything out, and I 'kind-of' understand how your system works..

With just the VS pump running, and in the "Spa heat mode', your pool water has no place to go other than your fountain. It appears to me that your fountain then spills over into your pool.. If that is not true, I have no idea where the water is going... The coping and tile work makes it look like the fountain should spillover into the pool.

I do not see any place where the spa water should mix with the pool water, so in theory one going up or down should not have any effect on the other..

None of your water flow issues have anything to do with your heater.. The heater has no idea where the water is coming from or where it is going.

With no water flow, the heater will not heat due to a pressure switch.. When you turn the pump on, the water flows and the heater fires up..

Pump priming also has nothing to do with the heater...

What you need to do is pick just one problem and then solve that problem, before trying to solve several other problems all at the same time. The problems may or may not be related.

With the main VS pump running, tell me what happens to the water in the fountain when you turn on the fountain valve full open... (While still in the Spa heat mode.. ) (Spa pump off..) I suspect that it will over flow into the pool, is that correct??

I also don't see any valve that is obviously out of place...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Alwayshad1]

Jim,
In spa heat mode when the pool pump is running the water goes to the returns in the pool and out the two pvc pipes sticking up out of the fountain. The fountain water then cascades over the ledge back into the pool. I can regulate how much water returns to the fountain and with it wide open it just pushes more water out of the pipes than it would at partial open. This is how the pool runs whether the spa pump is running or not. I will spend some time out there tomorrow and see if I can figure any of this out. Being that even though they are separate systems, since they are in fact connected to one another via do you think a faulty valve could possibly be causing water to reverse back from the spa into the pool? Thx Mike

 

[Jimrahbe]

Mike,

It is very likely that one of your diverter valves is leaking, if you are mixing the spa water and pool water.. Of course the question is which one.. ???

I am not arguing that you are wrong with the idea that your pool pump is sending water back to the Fountain and the pool... But, I can't see a path for that to happen. It appears to me that all the water going back to the pool should pass through the tab feeder. The "Pool heat out valve" is set to off, so where is the path for the water to get back to the pool? Maybe I just missed it..

Edit.. Your "Pool heat in" valve is also shut off, so it is a puzzle to me.. ???

Can you actually 'feel' the water coming out of the eyeballs in your pool, when in the "Spa heat mode"???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Alwayshad1]

Mike,

It is very likely that one of your diverter valves is leaking, if you are mixing the spa water and pool water.. Of course the question is which one.. ???

I am not arguing that you are wrong with the idea that your pool pump is sending water back to the Fountain and the pool... But, I can't see a path for that to happen. It appears to me that all the water going back to the pool should pass through the tab feeder. The "Pool heat out valve" is set to off, so where is the path for the water to get back to the pool? Maybe I just missed it..

Edit.. Your "Pool heat in" valve is also shut off, so it is a puzzle to me.. ???

Can you actually 'feel' the water coming out of the eyeballs in your pool, when in the "Spa heat mode"???

Thanks,

Jim R.

Hi Jim,
Yes water is coming out of the eyeballs in the pool. There are two bypass valves, one for pool one for spa. If the valves are set to spa heat in spa heat out and pool heat in pool heat out, the spa bypass valve is set to close and water is sent thru the heater for the spa, and pool heat in and pool heat out is set to off, the pool bypass valve is open allowing water to go from filter back to pool via the tab feeder. If the fountain valve is set to closed then water comes out of pool jets at a higher volume of course because the water coming out of the fountain pipes has no real resistance. Right now I shut the fountain valve off as well as the spa pump just to try something different. I have a dentist appt now (oh fun!) and will be back in couple of hours. Right now you can see from the picture the water from the spa has drained down to the eyeballs. Yesterday at about 3 pm it was up to the rim of the spa. One day we will figure this out! Thanks Mike

 

[Jimrahbe]

Mike,

I'll look at your pics again.. My original review was that both by-pass valves were off....

Have 'fun' at the dentist's office...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Alwayshad1]

Hi Jim,
Yes water is coming out of the eyeballs in the pool. There are two bypass valves, one for pool one for spa. If the valves are set to spa heat in spa heat out and pool heat in pool heat out, the spa bypass valve is set to close and water is sent thru the heater for the spa, and pool heat in and pool heat out is set to off, the pool bypass valve is open allowing water to go from filter back to pool via the tab feeder. If the fountain valve is set to closed then water comes out of pool jets at a higher volume of course because the water coming out of the fountain pipes has no real resistance. Right now I shut the fountain valve off as well as the spa pump just to try something different. I have a dentist appt now (oh fun!) and will be back in couple of hours. Right now you can see from the picture the water from the spa has drained down to the eyeballs. Yesterday at about 3 pm it was up to the rim of the spa. One day we will figure this out! Thanks Mike

Back from the dentist and after 2 hours the water in the spa has risen a few inches above the eyeballs. Looking in the spa pump the water has gone down to where it’s around the level of the inlet pipe, but it’s not full up to the glass like it should be. I will check back in the morning and see what’s going on then. And yes, it is possible some of my previous pictures had them set differently…I think I was trying different things. But I believe the way I described how they should be is correct. Thanks, Mike

 

[Alwayshad1]

Back from the dentist and after 2 hours the water in the spa has risen a few inches above the eyeballs. Looking in the spa pump the water has gone down to where it’s around the level of the inlet pipe, but it’s not full up to the glass like it should be. I will check back in the morning and see what’s going on then. And yes, it is possible some of my previous pictures had them set differently…I think I was trying different things. But I believe the way I described how they should be is correct. Thanks, Mike

Good morning..a little chilly! With both pumps off overnight the spa drained down again. Started pool pump manually and when I started spa pump it would not prime. I switched the spa bypass valve to open and it primed. So I’m guessing that has to be open. I then switched spa heater in and spa heater out closed, which made it pool heater in and pool heater out. Right now fountain valve is open, and both pool and spa bypass valves are open. Water is coming out of the pool returns and the spa returns. I then switched the pool bypass to off and water still was coming out of the pool returns. So what is the purpose of the pool and spa bypass valves if water is flowing thru the heater and coming out of the pool returns regardless of whether bypass valve is open or closed?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Mike,

Not sure that this will help, but here is a layout of your equipment pad set up..

In this drawing, the valves are set to heat the spa and to run the pool with no heat.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Mike,

You should be able to prime the spa pump without opening the Spa bypass valve.. The Input valves needs to be set to open the spa input and close the pool input.. and the Output valve needs to be set to open the spa output and close the pool output..

If you set the valves per the above diagram, then unless you open the Pool bypass valve, no water should go to your pool.. Unless there is some kind of underground connection we can't see.

As a test... Tonight shut off both pumps and set your Fountain valve closed/off and see what happens..

Most spas have a check valve on the spa jets line to keep the spa from draining back into the pool when the pump is off.. I don't see this check valve anywhere in your set up.. It could be underground... ???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Alwayshad1]

Good evening Jim,
I came home around 11 and the spa had drained down a good foot from the previous night. I shut the spa pump off and removed timer pins so it could not kick on tomorrow. I honestly don’t remember if I moved the fountain valve or not but I believe it was in the off position. When I came home tonight the spa had overflowed its edge, and the pool water was slurping at the skimmer. Pump was not priming and all the warnings going on. The pool main drain valve is open so it should have gotten water flow thru the pump I would think. I just pulled the breaker for the pool pump and am going to look at your diagram and try to figure this out this weekend as it is dark when I get home. Just curious though, in my pictures do you see those two valves on the horizontal lines coming from the heater? They are not labeled but have always been set in that position which looks open to me. I don’t know what purpose they serve as I would think if you did not want to run water thru the heater you would just switch those spa or pool in out valves or bypass valves. Really driving me nuts!

 

[Alwayshad1]

Hi Jim,
Well I looked over your drawing grabbed a flashlight and a jacket and went to work. Here is what I did according to your drawing if I got it right.
1. Spa by pass closed.
2. Spa heat in open.
3. Spa heat out open.
4. Pool heat in closed.
5. Pool heat out closed.
6. Pool bypass open.
7. 2 heater bypass valves open (guess they were the ones I was asking about)
8. Fountain return closed.
9. Pool skimmer and main drain open and vacuum and fountain drain closed.
Adding water to the pool now and it appears spa has come down a bit. I will shut off water in awhile when it gets to correct level on skimmer then check in the morning.
Thanks again for all your help really appreciate it!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Mike,

You got it exactly right..

The two valves that I marked "Heater by pass" is just what they are.. If both valves are turned so the 'off' tab is pointed to the heater, then no water would flow through the heater.. This would allow you to take the heater out of the loop for maintenance if needed... It is not really needed, but can't have anything to do with the problems you are having with the spa draining..

In 'theory' there should be no mixing of pool water and spa water.. This means that you will have to add water to the pool and to the spa when it gets low..

A little mixing would make sense as you switch valves, but it should not be a lot.. If it is obvious to you that the water is mixing, then we need to figure out how that is happening..

In the configuration above, there is no path where Spa water can get back into the Pool. Unless the Input valve or the Output valve is leaking allowing spa water to leak past the diverter and into the pool side of the valves.

The opposite would also be true.. If the pool pump is running and the spa pump is off, if water leaked through the Input or Output valve it would go into the spa...

If this were my pool, I'd rebuild both of the Input and Output valves... Replace the Diverters and O-Rings... It can't hurt and I suspect it will fix your problem..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Alwayshad1]

Mike,

You got it exactly right..

The two valves that I marked "Heater by pass" is just what they are.. If both valves are turned so the 'off' tab is pointed to the heater, then no water would flow through the heater.. This would allow you to take the heater out of the loop for maintenance if needed... It is not really needed, but can't have anything to do with the problems you are having with the spa draining..

In 'theory' there should be no mixing of pool water and spa water.. This means that you will have to add water to the pool and to the spa when it gets low..

A little mixing would make sense as you switch valves, but it should not be a lot.. If it is obvious to you that the water is mixing, then we need to figure out how that is happening..

In the configuration above, there is no path were Spa water can get back into the Pool. Unless the Input valve or the Output valve is leaking allowing spa water to leak past the diverter and into the pool side of the valves.

The opposite would also be true.. If the pool pump is running and the spa pump is off, if water leaked through the Input or Output valve it would go into the spa...

If this were my pool, I'd rebuild both of the Input and Output valves... Replace the Diverters and O-Rings... It can't hurt and I suspect it will fix your problem..

Thanks,

Jim R.

Good morning,
Well just now I checked and spa down about a foot. So if all those valves are in correct position then I guess that’s what we will do. Have to order and try to do this weekend. Keep an eye out on my post as I will let you know the outcome, and thx again for all your help. Hey one quick question…here in north central Fl we do get freezing temps. Normally I run the pumps if temp is expected to get to 32 or below to prevent freezing. How long would you say the pumps can stay off with water not moving before I have a problem?