Soil compaction around Megna pool frame with clay soil

[Fouroaks347]

I currently am having a in ground pool installed. The soil is a heavy clay mix, and the pool builder is only backfilling the soil to the pool and is not compressing the fill at all. Originally I was going to have them do concrete around the pool but knowing that it would crumble without the soil being compact I decided to just live with the mud.

Is it a industry standard to just loosely backfill the overdig for the supports or does the fill usually get tamped down when it’s being put in?

I unfortunately will have to wait until next year for concrete since I know the un compressed clay soil will settle.

Last question- should the soil be compacted or would there be a reason it is not compacted?

Thank you for any insight in this very exciting but stressful life event.

 

[Newdude]

Hey oaks and Welcome !!!

Compacting will help short term, but it's still going to settle long term. It needs the right moisture content to fully compact. It will take some time.

An option for an immediate patio (Assuming it's too late to backfill with gravel). Is to sink concrete footers down to undisturbed earth. Then the patio supports itself kinda like a table. If an area or the whole dang thing sinks, the table will stand.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

They shouldn’t have used the excavated soil for backfill, that’s just lousy building practice. They should have trucked in clean fill material like crusher run (sometime called QP) or #57. Theoretically you’re going to have to wait years for that soil to compact on its own. If you put an unsupported deck on it, it’s going to crack and heave like crazy.

 

[Newdude]

They shouldn’t have used the excavated soil for backfill, that’s just lousy building practice

It's common here to wait it out, or build your own supports.

 

[Fouroaks347]

They shouldn’t have used the excavated soil for backfill, that’s just lousy building practice. They should have trucked in clean fill material like crusher run (sometime called QP) or #57. Theoretically you’re going to have to wait years for that soil to compact on its own. If you put an unsupported deck on it, it’s going to crack and heave like crazy.

The builder was claiming they could put concrete deck on it waiting a few weeks if I watered it each day. I 100% disagree with this practice, but for them to place #2 stone against the pool walls it would be an additional add on of $5,500 which would include placing stone around the pool where the grade is low compared to the pool (about 3 feet) which they claim was not included in the price since they wouldn’t know about it until after they did the layout at which point I already signed a contract and exchanged money.

I think even though they somehow have been in business a very long time this is a common deceptive business practice.

Basically my option is to pay an additional fee of over 5k or have them use the excavated soil. I don’t want to fire them because I simply don’t want to end up in court.

The plan is to build up the land around the pool up over 30” with clay mix soil. I’m guessing I’m going to never have hard scape that will hold up since I am in an area where the frost line is at 4’ with temps from -20 to 90.

 

[Newdude]

I think even though they somehow have been in business a very long time this is a common deceptive business practice.

It's a common NY thing. Maybe we're all too cheap to spend thousands on gravel, I dunno. But it's been that way forever here.

I'm about as far away from you as can be, state wise, and it's the same here

 

[Fouroaks347]

It's a common NY thing. Maybe we're all too cheap to spend thousands on gravel, I dunno. But it's been that way forever here.

I'm about as far away from you as can be, state wise, and it's the same here

Probably just not enough competition to force them to offer a better product or it’s just the industry. If they would have priced it in at the start of the job I would have been fine with it since it was a deal with cash and finance, but both windows closed so I’m just stuck feeling.

They have me filling the pool with water and want their final payment before everything is done or backfilling starts. Even though the plumbing all leaks around the pump/filter and the liner has big pockets of air or whatever in the corners. It is a rectangular pool with 6” radius corners…. I would think the liner should sit against the corners and not feel like there is nothing behind it?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If you’re going to build up a 3ft grade then you need to make sure that a proper retaining wall is built and that there is adequate drainage planned. The grade should be filled with clean compactable material. This isn’t some new fancy concept … the freakin Romans figured this out two thousand years ago

Sounds to me like a pool installer pretending to be a GC … maybe get advice from someone actually in the trade of doing flat work and walls.

 

[Fouroaks347]

Thank you for the replies. I finally received the requested information from the pool wall manufacturer directly. It looks like their engineered shop drawings of panels assume that soil will be clean, without roots or debris. Fill cannot be expansive or adobe type soil. Also it states to compact soil every 12” lift with tamp. Finally, water should raise as pool is backfilled, and not dropped below inlets.

The PB backfilled the pool and didn’t follow any of these engineer parameters. I’m not exactly thrilled with this because the structure was only calculated to perform as intended if these were followed.

PB back filled with clay soil, did not tamp, buried grass mixed into the fill against pool with large rocks (10”-12”) against steel panels.

Am I unreasonable to expect them to install a product to the manufacture instructions? Not sure what constitutes “industry standard” which my install is to follow.

 

[Newdude]

Am I unreasonable to expect them to install a product to the manufacture instructions?

There's a reason that the acronym RTFM exists. And its because *nobody* ever RTFMs.

PB back filled with clay soil, did not tamp, buried grass mixed into the fill against pool with large rocks (10”-12”) against steel panels.

If your pool walls are still straight and plum, you're good. The ground will settle which may prolong getting a patio, but that's not going to harm the pool any. Check the walls for bowing with a tight string across the front edge. We've seen them skew from backfilling an empty wall/shell, or from tamping too much. You could have had that problem instead, if the PB followed the industry standard. The grass isn't always greener.

 

[Fouroaks347]

There's a reason that the acronym RTFM exists. And its because *nobody* ever RTFMs.



If your pool walls are still straight and plum, you're good. The ground will settle which may prolong getting a patio, but that's not going to harm the pool any. Check the walls for bowing with a tight string across the front edge. We've seen them skew from backfilling an empty wall/shell, or from tamping too much. You could have had that problem instead, if the PB followed the industry standard. The grass isn't always greener.

So that is like totally normal to backfill with the clay soil and not compact it at all?

I guess the settling I don’t love the idea about but I will accept at this point. Isn’t the clay soil going to hold water against the pool and continue to expand and contract as water finds its way to the soil?

The soil has enough clay in it I can press it into a ball and sculpt whatever I want out of it.

Finally, when they backfilled they didn’t pack the material under the plastic steps there are big voids. Not sure if this even matters since they have plastic supports in a few inches of concrete.

Just trying to get my expectations and reality in line since I am meeting with the PB about final payment. Judging how the project went and the lack of communication, once that payment is given I am thinking I have a tail light warranty.

 

[Newdude]

So that is like totally normal to backfill with the clay soil and not compact it at all?

Yup. It's not the best practice, but it's commonplace here.

Isn’t the clay soil going to hold water against the pool and continue to expand and contract as water finds its way to the soil?

I pitched mine away from the pool so less water puddled up before the patio went in. Any moisture that is down there is on brand new walls, they'll be fine. 5 to 15 years from now, it would likely accelerate their demise.

Finally, when they backfilled they didn’t pack the material under the plastic steps there are big voids

My supports weren't enough and the stairs settled a little. The concrete crew fixed them by digging down and pouring footers under the stair lip to keep them jacked 'up', where they should have been the whole time.

Just trying to get my expectations and reality in line since I am meeting with the PB about final payment. Judging how the project went and the lack of communication, once that payment is given I am thinking I have a tail light warranty.

No project goes perfect and I bet the PB has cut and run from every project he has ever had. He's probably REAL good at it.

Get any promises in writing before you hand that check over.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So that is like totally normal to backfill with the clay soil and not compact it at all?

I guess the settling I don’t love the idea about but I will accept at this point. Isn’t the clay soil going to hold water against the pool and continue to expand and contract as water finds its way to the soil?

The soil has enough clay in it I can press it into a ball and sculpt whatever I want out of it.

Finally, when they backfilled they didn’t pack the material under the plastic steps there are big voids. Not sure if this even matters since they have plastic supports in a few inches of concrete.

Just trying to get my expectations and reality in line since I am meeting with the PB about final payment. Judging how the project went and the lack of communication, once that payment is given I am thinking I have a tail light warranty.

My opinion is that none of that is good but what can you do at this point? You’re not going to dig out the pool and redo it. It’s just poor workmanship and we see stories of this all the time on TFP. And, to be honest, don’t fret over the warranty. They are mostly worthless anyway.

I would not put concrete over that area for a good long time. The clay is going to take years to settle. Pavers are probably your best best because they can be reworked as needed to address settling issues. But even with pavers I’d wait at least a year to see what happens to the soil first.

 

[Newdude]

I would not put concrete over that area for a good long time

With concrete they usually pour footers here and basically build a bridge. When the ground below settles, the bridge is unfazed.

Pavers are probably your best best because they can be reworked as needed to address settling ississues

With pool #1 they spent a few days compacting RCA around the pool. It settled about an inch anyway, but they fixed it as they said they would. Long term they all waffle in about 10 years no matter what when installed over earth. That's why we went with pavers over a slab this time. The slab can stress crack and nobody will ever know under the pavers and the pavers will stay perfectly flat forever. Time will tell if the throry holds up.

 

[Fouroaks347]

My opinion is that none of that is good but what can you do at this point? You’re not going to dig out the pool and redo it. It’s just poor workmanship and we see stories of this all the time on TFP. And, to be honest, don’t fret over the warranty. They are mostly worthless anyway.

I would not put concrete over that area for a good long time. The clay is going to take years to settle. Pavers are probably your best best because they can be reworked as needed to address settling issues. But even with pavers I’d wait at least a year to see what happens to the soil first.

I might be stubborn, but I absolutely would dig out the pool at the original contractors expense if that’s what is correct to do. I don’t have an obligation as a customer to accept subpar workmanship. I’m just trying to decide if it’s worth the stress.

The way my mind is sitting currently is this- the PB decided to not follow the manufacture rules associated with the engineer stamped drawings. In plain English if the instructions aren’t followed the calculated values are not valid.

There needs to be approved drawings for the pool to pass inspection to meet building code. If the drawings are invalid because the PB is lazy, I didn’t get the product I paid for… instead I received a liability.

Otherwise I turn the cheek, and pour my concrete 6” with rebar to float and just tell the world that PB doesn’t build well.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I might be stubborn, but I absolutely would dig out the pool at the original contractors expense if that’s what is correct to do. I don’t have an obligation as a customer to accept subpar workmanship. I’m just trying to decide if it’s worth the stress.

The way my mind is sitting currently is this- the PB decided to not follow the manufacture rules associated with the engineer stamped drawings. In plain English if the instructions aren’t followed the calculated values are not valid.

There needs to be approved drawings for the pool to pass inspection to meet building code. If the drawings are invalid because the PB is lazy, I didn’t get the product I paid for… instead I received a liability.

Otherwise I turn the cheek, and pour my concrete 6” with rebar to float and just tell the world that PB doesn’t build well.

Time and again we see this and people like yourself, well intentioned and with no disrespect, think that the legal pathway is a viable option. It’s generally not. I’d suggest you talk to a lawyer about this and see what they say. And, if you should somehow win the day in court, the builder can simply declare bankruptcy, shut down their business and not have to pay a single dime. Then they’ll start right back up again under a different name or go work for a buddy of theirs for a few years.

I understand what you’re saying about not getting what you paid for or what you were promised and I agree that there should be legal recourse when stuff like this happens. But the amounts of money involved are so tiny in comparison to costs associated with a legal battle (both time and money) that they are often not worth it. And right now the perceived “damage” isn’t even material in nature, it’s an argument about what should have been done versus what was done. So while you might have standing to sue, you have no tangible harm to point to. And you simply can’t get a judgement against someone based on what *might happen* in the future.

So, with that said, I think your option #2 is the only viable route which is to over-engineer a concrete deck using piers to alleviate the issues associated with expansive, loose soil.

 

[Newdude]

I’d suggest you talk to a lawyer about this

As much as I'd echo this, there are bad apples there too who will promise the world with them getting paid either way. So they may detail all the ways one could litigate without the odds of recouping ones money in a timely manner, if ever.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

As much as I'd echo this, there are bad apples there too who will promise the world with them getting paid either way. So they may detail all the ways one could litigate without the odds of recouping ones money in a timely manner, if ever.

Yeah, I wasn’t suggesting “Better Call Saul …”

More like, find a friend or acquaintance with working knowledge of the civil legal system and ask for their input. If you can find a trustworthy person, even a friend of a friend of a friend, they will more than likely give you an honest assessment. Any time I have ever asked a legal friend one of those hypothetical “could I sue someone if …” questions, I’d get more laughs than serious discussions. Filing nuisance complaints is easy especially when people have no intention of following through, because anyone can go to a court house and “file” a complaint. The financial bar for that is set pretty low and the paperwork involved is relatively simple. But actually following through with a case and going through the process is mind-numbingly difficult and slow … and it’s intentionally made to be that way so that the system weeds out a lot of the emotional noise …

 

[Fouroaks347]

Time and again we see this and people like yourself, well intentioned and with no disrespect, think that the legal pathway is a viable option. It’s generally not. I’d suggest you talk to a lawyer about this and see what they say. And, if you should somehow win the day in court, the builder can simply declare bankruptcy, shut down their business and not have to pay a single dime. Then they’ll start right back up again under a different name or go work for a buddy of theirs for a few years.

I understand what you’re saying about not getting what you paid for or what you were promised and I agree that there should be legal recourse when stuff like this happens. But the amounts of money involved are so tiny in comparison to costs associated with a legal battle (both time and money) that they are often not worth it. And right now the perceived “damage” isn’t even material in nature, it’s an argument about what should have been done versus what was done. So while you might have standing to sue, you have no tangible harm to point to. And you simply can’t get a judgement against someone based on what *might happen* in the future.

So, with that said, I think your option #2 is the only viable route which is to over-engineer a concrete deck using piers to alleviate the issues associated with expansive, loose soil.

Thanks, I completely understand this point of view and that’s exactly how I feel too.

I just don’t think it’s worth the stress, even though I did reach out to my attorney just to see his thoughts- pending a conflict check.

if I was to pursue the legal route, I think it would look like this.

I don’t pay the final balance, they start placing a mechanics lien, I defend against the lien. The burden actually shifts to them to prove the goods are delivered to spec. I’m not going to change the world and try to get rid of the bad company that’s a losing battle.