Properly installing water connection to auto leveler

Mar 25, 2017
127
Austin, TX
We just bought our house a year ago and the previous owners connected one of the outdoor spickets to the auto leveler. They just leave the outdoor Spicket on all the time. Since it’s a garden hose it of course is leaking now and I’m trying to determine do I just replace it as is or should I sweat on some new copper couplers with a separate on off valve for the auto leveler And allow me to use the spicket for watering as well.
1af845910dd5de4cf32f0134b431b74e.jpg
c9d70e9e589a5f6f708706218e941a8f.jpg
0be28f8dc6e7900f0b8da56112807232.jpg
 
Sweat a tee onto the pipe. Hose bib to one leg of the tee and auto fill to other. Code may require a backflow preventer/ vacuum break on the auto fill line. After the backflow preventer, hard plumb in the autofill with PVC pipe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chickensnparadise
If it will only be used on the auto-fill line, find one of the same pipe size as the feed line. If it's split off an outside hose bib, those lines are usually 1/2" or 3/4" pipe. The type Dirk linked to is the correct type - pressure vacuum break.
 
Thanks for the info. So I need both a backflow preventer and a vacuum breaker? Dirk I would love the long-winded response. Always interested in how things work. I believe the pipe is 1/2 inch. Can you recommend a specific backflow preventer? Thank you
 
Thanks for the info. So I need both a backflow preventer and a vacuum breaker? Dirk I would love the long-winded response. Always interested in how things work. I believe the pipe is 1/2 inch. Can you recommend a specific backflow preventer? Thank you

A vacuum breaker is a type of back flow preventer. You don't need two things. The device I linked to on Amazon would do the job. I've seen many builds where the PB uses a cheap, plastic [I don't know what]. Like $10 at Lowes. That'll work for a while, but you'll never know if it is or isn't doing its job. Then a lot of PBs will make use of a "regular" vacuum breaker, one that looks like a sprinkler valve (is one). That is a back flow preventer. Here's the rub. That type is suitable when it is the last valve in the circuit. Like supplying a set of sprinklers. Once you turn the valve off, the pressure on the breaker (which is on the sprinkler side of the valve) is relieved, as the water flows out of the sprinklers. They are designed to be under pressure (sprinklers on) for usually no more than 12 hours at a time, then the mechanism in the breaker can "rest" for the remainder of the day. But if you use that type with an auto fill, then the auto fill valve is the last in line, and the vacuum breaker will be under constant pressure, 24/7, and will eventually fail for that reason. And the typical sprinkler valve offers no way to be tested.

The pressure vacuum breaker I used on my autofill is specifically designed to be under pressure 24/7, so it can supply a down stream valve (like an autofill valve), and be fine. Further, that model offers testing ports so one could have the unit tested periodically to make sure it is still working correctly. It's the right part for the job.

It's surprising a lot of pool plumber's don't understand the distinction, and even more surprising that building inspectors don't catch this error.

Stay tuned for why you even need a back flow preventer (vacuum breaker), if you're interested. (I wrote about that in detail in somebody else's thread, but now I can't find it. I'll try to dig it up if you care to hear about it)...

Regarding a recommendation: the one I linked. It is 3/4" but that'll work, with the appropriate fittings and reducers. There is a similar 1/2" model, but it's more, at least it is on Amazon. Maybe the 3/4" sells more?
 
A vacuum breaker is a type of back flow preventer. You don't need two things. The device I linked to on Amazon would do the job. I've seen many builds where the PB uses a cheap, plastic [I don't know what]. Like $10 at Lowes. That'll work for a while, but you'll never know if it is or isn't doing its job. Then a lot of PBs will make use of a "regular" vacuum breaker, one that looks like a sprinkler valve (is one). That is a back flow preventer. Here's the rub. That type is suitable when it is the last valve in the circuit. Like supplying a set of sprinklers. Once you turn the valve off, the pressure on the breaker (which is on the sprinkler side of the valve) is relieved, as the water flows out of the sprinklers. They are designed to be under pressure (sprinklers on) for usually no more than 12 hours at a time, then the mechanism in the breaker can "rest" for the remainder of the day. But if you use that type with an auto fill, then the auto fill valve is the last in line, and the vacuum breaker will be under constant pressure, 24/7, and will eventually fail for that reason. And the typical sprinkler valve offers no way to be tested.

The pressure vacuum breaker I used on my autofill is specifically designed to be under pressure 24/7, so it can supply a down stream valve (like an autofill valve), and be fine. Further, that model offers testing ports so one could have the unit tested periodically to make sure it is still working correctly. It's the right part for the job.

It's surprising a lot of pool plumber's don't understand the distinction, and even more surprising that building inspectors don't catch this error.

Stay tuned for why you even need a back flow preventer (vacuum breaker), if you're interested. (I wrote about that in detail in somebody else's thread, but now I can't find it. I'll try to dig it up if you care to hear about it)...

Regarding a recommendation: the one I linked. It is 3/4" but that'll work, with the appropriate fittings and reducers. There is a similar 1/2" model, but it's more, at least it is on Amazon. Maybe the 3/4" sells more?

I purchased the 1/2” Vacuum Breaker and am ready to install. Thank you!! Is their a suggested way to install that allows for removal in the winter months where we have a temp drop 1-2 times below freezing? I had a backflow preventer for the sprinklers in Chicago and it had an internal (basement) shutoff valve and external connections that allowed for the removal. This looks like something that is more permanently installed.

As you can see from the photo I will need to run copper down to enter the bottom of the vacuum breaker and then over and down to hit the existing pvc. This will be a lot of exposed copper where I cannot remove the water from the pipes. I am not aware of an exterior water faucet shutoff valve for the home. We do not have a basement.

Thanks,

Ryan
 
I purchased the 1/2” Vacuum Breaker and am ready to install. Thank you!! Is their a suggested way to install that allows for removal in the winter months where we have a temp drop 1-2 times below freezing? I had a backflow preventer for the sprinklers in Chicago and it had an internal (basement) shutoff valve and external connections that allowed for the removal. This looks like something that is more permanently installed.

As you can see from the photo I will need to run copper down to enter the bottom of the vacuum breaker and then over and down to hit the existing pvc. This will be a lot of exposed copper where I cannot remove the water from the pipes. I am not aware of an exterior water faucet shutoff valve for the home. We do not have a basement.

Thanks,

Ryan

There are several ways to install. I'm not sure what the freezing season is like in Texas, but I can't imagine you have to worry too much about that, as evidenced by your current setup: a fully exposed copper pipe and hose bib. I get freezing temps here, down to the 20s, and have plenty of exterior copper that is just encased in insulating foam. No problem. I wouldn't worry about the breaker exposed to a few freezes, myself. And it has two shut off valves on it, so you could close the first one, leave the second one open, and just relieve the remaining water pressure by working the auto-fill valve. My guess is you could leave that on all winter and not have a problem, but if you're really worried about it you could install a shut off valve close to the house, with a compression fitting or just push on a sharkbite valve and be done. I don't like sharkbites because of their o-ring, but if I was going to use one, outside like in your application is where I'd be OK with it, because if it ever failed, it'd just flood your yard and not your house. I digress. Go sneak a peek at neighbors' exterior plumbing (hose bibs and water mains, etc) and see how they are done. That'll give you an idea of what you can get away with in your neighborhood, or contact the local building/planning dept and just ask them about exposed copper pipe and see what they say (you don't have to tell them about your project, just say you have some exposed copper and ask if that's something to worry about in your town).

Valve or no valve, you can sweat a copper "L" onto existing pipe, or after the valve if you want one, and turn it up, right into the breaker valve. The proper installation for a breaker valve is well above the water line. Six or 12 inches, maybe more, depending on local code, as measured from the bottom of the valve. It won't be pretty, but don't try to disguise it by going low, or below ground, by going way down and back up again, just mount it right close to the existing copper pipe. Then that'll be only a few inches of exposed copper, which you can wrap with insulation. You could conceivably wrap the whole breaker in insulation if you are still worried about freezing. Mine isn't wrapped, and it was fine this winter. Up to you. If you really want to make it removable, then use a shutoff valve into a union, with another union after the breaker. But that really seems like overkill for Texas.

Go PVC after the valve, with a PVC male thread to slip adapter, then on to existing PVC pipe, all of which is slightly more forgiving in cold weather than copper. You can insulate all that too, which will keep the sun off it (which is arguably the bigger concern for external plumbing). 30-60 minute project, depending on your skill and materials used...
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Put in a tee and mount the vacuum break above the copper pipe coming out of the wall - you want the vacumm break higher than the pipe exiting the wall. Mount the hose bib on the bottom of the tee - maybe using a street elbow or 90 degree fitting. Use pvc from the vacuum break to the auto-fill line. You could also reroute the existing pvc auto-fill line just below ground level to better line up with the new vacuum breaker so the pipe runs straight out of the ground to the vacuum breaker connection.

You could build a small box to put over it in the winter. I certainly wouldn't leave it on all year - best to be able to see it and access the hose bib without having to mess with the coger year round. Looks like you have air conditioner condensate drain lines (and maybe water heater relief line) right behind the auto-fill pvc pipe also - and you'd want to see them during AC season too..
 
  • Wow
Reactions: ScottieBones
Oops, rethinking... I'd sweat in a T, between existing hose bib and house, then go straight up into breaker off the T, which will leave you a working hose bib right there (or splurge and get a new hose bib). No reason to lose the bib...

- - - Updated - - -

Gene beat me to it!
 
Thanks for the great info. What is the downside if I put a T in and run a pipe about 7 inches down from the existing stub so that the vacuum breaker is behind the wall (hidden). It’s still 12 inches above the pool waterline. Also I could put a sprinkler type enclosure around it to protect it if needed. Just trying to understand if it needs to be above the existing stub to function correctly. Thanks!
 
I'd go sharkbite... Been using them for years and now they even meet code. I have only had 1 leak that I had put underground and the frost pulled it off slightly. Cleaned it up and put it back on.. during the winter you can pop em off and drain the lines.
 
I can check with my guy, but my understanding is the BFP needs to be 12” above the water from which the backflow event would pull water (the pool, in this case), not above the water supply line. Backflow can occur when an event causes the supply pressure to reverse and a non-BFP valve is left open and is connected in some way to a body of water. A common scenario is a water main failure (broken main) that will suck water from everything above it, including an entire neighborhood. Picture someone filling their pool with a hose while this occurs, with the hose end in the water. Now the water main will be sucking water out of the pool, into the entire street’s plumbing. When the main is fixed and pressure restored, the pool water in the system can be pumped into the neighborhood houses, including yours! That is what BFP is designed to prevent. Pool water is bad enough. Imagine if someone had a hose end in a bucket of dangerous chemicals?!?

A backflow event of this type would draw water from your pool no matter if the valve was placed above or below the pipe that exits the house, which is why I don’t think it matters. The reason the BFP valve must be placed 12” above the ground is to prevented it from becoming submerged under water, which could potentially allow non-potable water into your plumbing system, because during normal operation the BFP valve exposes the water supply to air (not sure why, but it takes place under that black cap). If the BFP was underwater, then potable and non-potable water could mix.

Think about it, the plumbing in a building could just as likely be in the attic as it could be under the house. So just because you connect it above the hose bib doesn’t mean you’re connecting it at the highest point in your system. It just needs to be above your pool, in a location that is not subject to becoming flooded, submerging the valve.

There ya go, TMI...
 
  • Like
Reactions: ScottieBones
I can check with my guy, but my understanding is the BFP needs to be 12” above the water from which the backflow event would pull water (the pool, in this case), not above the water supply line. Backflow can occur when an event causes the supply pressure to reverse and a non-BFP valve is left open and is connected in some way to a body of water. A common scenario is a water main failure (broken main) that will suck water from everything above it, including an entire neighborhood. Picture someone filling their pool with a hose while this occurs, with the hose end in the water. Now the water main will be sucking water out of the pool, into the entire street’s plumbing. When the main is fixed and pressure restored, the pool water in the system can be pumped into the neighborhood houses, including yours! That is what BFP is designed to prevent. Pool water is bad enough. Imagine if someone had a hose end in a bucket of dangerous chemicals?!?

A backflow event of this type would draw water from your pool no matter if the valve was placed above or below the pipe that exits the house, which is why I don’t think it matters. The reason the BFP valve must be placed 12” above the ground is to prevented it from becoming submerged under water, which could potentially allow non-potable water into your plumbing system, because during normal operation the BFP valve exposes the water supply to air (not sure why, but it takes place under that black cap). If the BFP was underwater, then potable and non-potable water could mix.

Think about it, the plumbing in a building could just as likely be in the attic as it could be under the house. So just because you connect it above the hose bib doesn’t mean you’re connecting it at the highest point in your system. It just needs to be above your pool, in a location that is not subject to becoming flooded, submerging the valve.

There ya go, TMI...
I realize this is an older post but I just had to redo my pool and converted my manual pool filler to an automatic one. This is the current set up which leaks as predicted by Dirk. I want to install one of the Zurn pressure regulator valve but need suggestions on how to configure the set up. Does anyone have any suggestions?
ThanksIMG_2416.JPG
 
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.