Popup Heads Not Popping Up

[VinceN]

Hi,
I drained my pool, after that some of the popup heads didn't pop up, so I researched and found suggestions about popup control module. I inspected it and some of the valves were bad. I bought another, similar module control online. The new unit looks almost the same as mine, but it has no label, valves firmly sit, and the new gears look a bit differently than mine. I tried it anyway and still some of the popups don't pop up. The same heads pop up all the time. There are 13 heads and only 5 pop up. Notice these 5 pop up all at once. It seems the gears don't change and only some of the ports are open. I can force all 13 heads up by turning off the wall returns or removing the control module. Water pressure looks good. There is a small leak at the air bleeder valve on top of the filter. No other leaks. I also made sure I set the control module to "run" mode by setting the switch on top of the dome.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to troubleshoot this? Is it really the control module? What should be the correct gears configuration? Can I swap out the gears (Actually I did try, but the old central spindle didn't fit the new shalf. I could make it wider but haven't done that without asking)?
I am attaching some photos hers for references. Thanks for helping!!!

 

[proavia]

Welcome to TFP!

That looks like a Paramount water distribution valve. I can't make out much writing on the dome from your pics. Any identifying info there?

Is the new gear set/control module an OEM unit or after-market?

On the suction side of the pump plumbed to the filter - your pic shows the skimmer off and the main drain fully open.
Change this to 80% skimmer and 20% main drain. This will allow the skimmer to skim the larger debris off the water surface rather than waiting for it to sink and hope the IFCS pushes the debris to the main drains.

With the pump running, what is the reading on the pressure gauge on top of the water distribution valve? Check it multiple times as it cycles thru the different zones. If the gauge isn't working or doesn't return to zero with the pump off, replace the gauge. As I recall, the pressure reading on the water valve gauge should be in the 17-22 psi range.

Usually, when using the IFCS, all return flow should be directed to the IFCS - other returns off. If the pressure on the water valve gauge is above about 22 psi, you can adjust the 3-way Jandy valve to attain a lower pressure.

It may be beneficial to remove each infloor popup, clean it and check for proper operation.
You will need a nozzle tool to remove the popups.
Here is a link to help identify what popups and other items your system may have:

Buy Paramount Pool Products Replacement Parts for Swimming Pool In-Floor Cleaning Systems

In Floor Pool Parts carries a full line of Paramount Pool Products. Paramount replacement parts for in floor cleaning systems.

www.infloorpoolparts.com

Suggest you wash off all plumbing and apply a coat of paint to all the PVC to keep the sun from degrading it any further. Also, clean off any dirt from the water valve, its band clamp and around pump basket lids.

 

[VinceN]

Hi. Thanks for your response! Definitely the suggestion about painting the pipes is valuable. I never thought about it.

Yes the control is Paramount. It has some patent number that I can't read even in person. (btw, do you see my signature? I set it upon registration but I don't see it under my name for some reason, even though I see it if I check my profile).

I have the suction side valve set that way (100% main drain) because the skimmer side has been having an issue for awhile worth another thread/discussion.

The new module has no label, it looks clean. Now you said it, it is probably after market.

The gauge on the water distribution system has its marking label warped so the needle is stuck. Should I pop the cover and flatten the label?

The valve after the water distribution system has been that way since way back and I never changed it.

Again, the popups had been working fine (changing from zone to zone after a few minutes) before I attempted to let the pool drain on its own. After it was halfway drained, I refilled water (May 2024) and this popup issue started.

If I turn off the return and let all water go to the "Cleaning System" side (this I guess the water distribution system - the 6 port Paramount module), I could feel the entire set shake more than if I let the valve open for both sides. And also when water only goes through the cleaning system, I can see all the heads pop up, granted they never change zone or rotate from one set to the other.

So you think something maybe keeping the heads from raising normally with normal pressure? Or maybe the water pressure isn't high enough? But my confusion is why it never shows any attempt to change gears or change zone? Shouldn't I at least see the currently raised heads try to lower and others try to raise? Could there be something wrong with the gears on the new module? Do I need to adjust the gears? I can manually spin the gears but they seem a bit sticky (i.e. not carrying on with their momentum if I let go). Is there a way to know for sure that the gears will spin inside the dome?

Thanks again.

 

[proavia]

Keep everything in one thread. Easier to follow that way.

What is the skimmer issue?

Replace the gauge on the water valve.
With a working gauge, you can set the required pressure using the IFCS/returns Jandy 3-way valve.
Right now you hafe no idea what "normal" pressure is at the water valve.

Something is not allowing the zones to change - directly water valve or module related.
With the top off the water valve, rotate the gears thru full range to see if there is a point where they stick. Rotate thru all zones. Right now, the popups on only one zone are popping up.

Compare the old and new modules - specifically looking for identifying writing.
Let us know what you find.

Have a read thru this post - might be helpful.

PCC2000 Valve Module Repair Journey

First TFP post... Seven years ago, I fell in love with a pool that came with a girl...errrrr, the other way around. The first year I respectfully watched her netting and sweeping the pool virtually everyday. She said it was "therapeutic"...and I gave her the benefit of the doubt :goodjob...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[VinceN]

Thanks @proavia for your post, especially the link to the other thread, definitely valuable.

The skimmer issue is that (it started some time last year ago) if I leave the valve to also draw in water from the skimmer when the pump starts running, the pump wouldn't be able to pull in any water at all, not from the main drain, not from the skimmer. If I turn off the skimmer side like in the photo, start the pump, then slowly open the skimmer side, it will work. Even if I completely turn off the main drain after this maneuver, the pump will still work, until the next time it starts, then it will fail to draw in water as described at the beginning of this paragraph. I suspect there is an air leak from the skimmer, but I am confused (again, I am easily confused) why it would work if I slowly manually turn the valve to open the skimmer side, and why I don't see water dripping from the leak.

For the 6 port water module, yeah definitely I will get a new gauge to read the pressure.

The old module, on the gear side, has markings like "'E' control module" which the 'E' gear is positioned next to, and "'E' standard". On the valves side, each valve has markings like "Do not twist" and "Arrow between lines". The new module has no markings whatsoever. 4 of the 6 valves of the old module are drooping and are very loose where all the valves of the new module are snug fit.

Previously, before putting the new module in, I did try to spin the gears with my finger. As noted in my original post, it felt a bit sticky. Now I try again, it feels even more resistant. I feel the water pressure alone wouldn't overcome the resistance.

 

[proavia]

@VinceN

Notice how the gears are labeled A thru E...
On the old module, the "E" gear is next to "E Control Module"
On the new module, the "E" gear is next to (what should be marked as) "E Standard"

Carefully remove the gears on the new module and reposition "E" to the same locarion it is on the old unit.
Replace the other gears, being careful to maintain the correct order.

Reinstall and try the system again.

As for the skimmer - verify that the weir door is functioning properly and not rubbing or getting stuck.
Also check that the water level is half way up the height of the skimmer throat.

 

[VinceN]

Yeah, one of the first things I tried was to arrange the gears according to the old configuration, but it didn't help. That is why I moved them back to the "original positions". Actually I also brought it in a store and the gentleman working there was kind enough to pop open his box and compared the two, confirming the arrangement to be exactly like in the picture of the new module.

The weir door broke off and I removed it already. I know it's there to stop anything bulky from clogging the skimmer but there is nothing can get in there except for water and debris like leaves or small light stuff. Water level is about middle of the opening. The skimmer is full of water. I can see the swirling if I open the valve to skimmer side. There is nothing blocking the skimmer.

 

[proavia]

I am guessing the old gearset worked at some point - that is why I suggested realigning the new gearset to match.
If you rotate the gears - continue to rotate for 5-10 minutes - does the entire section the gears are mounted to rotate freely within the outer ring?

 

[VinceN]

Yeah for sure the old gearset worked, and the entire old module would still working, if not for the drooping valves.

The new gears move fine I guess after trying a few more times. Previously I tried by rotating the largest gear with my finger, and at certain points it felt stiff. But if I spin the impeller everything would feel normal, meaning I can't discern any resistance in the rotation.

Looking closely at the new module, it appears the raised hole for each valve is somehow left open whereas in the old module these are sealed completely. I could stick a screwdriver in these and push the valves open, which I think should not be possible (the holes should be sealed). I guess the way it works is that water comes through the center port and spins the impeller, which will rotate the gears plus the gear tray and, at each preset position, push a small ball out of its place, letting water in the valve chamber at that position, this valve will open to let water through the corresponding port. This of course relies on the fact that other valve chambers are tightly shut. Here with the new module, all the valve chambers are open at these "holes", so water comes in them all the time, making the gear rotation and the balls ineffective and irrelevant. These holes are probably there to allow combining the ports together for different setups. I have seen a few pics and videos of such things.

So I think I need to plug these holes somehow. In any case, your link to the other thread where people discussed disassembling the module will be handy. I will either move the valves, or move the caps (for lack of better terms to describe these things). Do you think this could solve the problem with the new module?

Another question is do you know what kind of pressure gauge I should buy to replace the current one on the water distribution dome?

 

[proavia]

When the valve is under pressure from the water, the zone chambers will be closed until the gear tray rotate to that particular chamber and opens that port.

If the old module isn't working, maybe open it up by removing the screws on the flange holding the gear tray in place. This should provide a better picture as to how the module operates.

I still think the gears on the new module need to be placed as they are on the old module.

As for the gauge - maybe a 0 to 30 psi gauge. The diameter of the gauge needs to match the present gauge if you want it to be in the same location. Or you can add a short nipple and coupler to raise the gauge mounting locarion and use a larger gauge - even a bottom mount as opposed to the existing rear mount.

 

[VinceN]

Some updates...
I replaced the gauge at the water distribution system and found a small crack on the dome at the stem where the gauge is attached to. So at this time I need to buy a new dome, which is quite expensive. If I seal the hole I can still use the dome but I won't be able to measure water pressure in the valve system. Maybe I will try that to ensure the module works before buying a new dome. Or maybe I can try to fix the crack... can some kind of bonders or waterweld be used in this case?

 

[proavia]

That's unfortunate. The dome is a pressure vessel, just like the filter, and can't be safely patched.

I think I forgot to ask - how many ports is the original module?

Paramount Replacement Modules

Paramount Pool Products Replacement Modules

www.infloorpoolparts.com

 

[trauert]

Battling the pop-up issue is pretty frustrating, I know! I had the Paramount PCC2000 system installed in my 15k gal in ground pool and after opening the first year noticed that it would "stall" at a station in the cycle. The builder told me it was a pressure issue and that I needed to adjust my pressure side valves, diverting more to the fixed jets and cleaner and less to the returns. That didn't help in the least, and actually caused my pressure relief valve on my spa heater to open up and flood the equipment area. Contacting Paramount led me to realize that the builder failed to install a spa diverter in the plumbing so everything was going thru the heater regardless. Long story short, the builder came back out and installed the diverter to isolate the heater when the cleaner was running on the pool and replaced the control head too. That should have fixed it, but unfortunately the pop-up problem persisted.
The support from Paramount was great and they told me to get the pop-up layout from the builder and to make sure that the correct sized pop-ups were installed. I said what??? Correct sized pop-ups?? Seems that the pop-ups have different opening diameters and depending on the proper placement can cause them to stall or not open at all. I found one of the pop-ups had been spun 180 degrees out and the opening was totally blocked, which was causing my control head to stall on that zone. After I removed and inspected and made sure that pop-ups matched the schematic layout it all came together and has been functioning perfectly.

I have 6 zones, and the pop-up orifice openings range in diameter from 1/4" to 1/2".
Get your zone layout schematic and check the pop-up placement and the diameters of the opening, make sure they are not blocked and that they rotate easily after installing.

 

[VinceN]

That's unfortunate. The dome is a pressure vessel, just like the filter, and can't be safely patched.

I think I forgot to ask - how many ports is the original module?

Paramount Replacement Modules

Paramount Pool Products Replacement Modules

www.infloorpoolparts.com

It's a 6 port module.
Yeah, you are absolutely right and I agreed it would be not easy fix. The dome is pressurized. But I thought the stem isn't under much pressure if the gauge is in place. If I remove the gauge and look down the stem, there is probably half an inch from the end of the crack to the actual hole, which is smaller in diameter than the stem itself. The dome is quite thick.

 

[VinceN]

Battling the pop-up issue is pretty frustrating, I know! I had the Paramount PCC2000 system installed in my 15k gal in ground pool and after opening the first year noticed that it would "stall" at a station in the cycle. The builder told me it was a pressure issue and that I needed to adjust my pressure side valves, diverting more to the fixed jets and cleaner and less to the returns. That didn't help in the least, and actually caused my pressure relief valve on my spa heater to open up and flood the equipment area. Contacting Paramount led me to realize that the builder failed to install a spa diverter in the plumbing so everything was going thru the heater regardless. Long story short, the builder came back out and installed the diverter to isolate the heater when the cleaner was running on the pool and replaced the control head too. That should have fixed it, but unfortunately the pop-up problem persisted.
The support from Paramount was great and they told me to get the pop-up layout from the builder and to make sure that the correct sized pop-ups were installed. I said what??? Correct sized pop-ups?? Seems that the pop-ups have different opening diameters and depending on the proper placement can cause them to stall or not open at all. I found one of the pop-ups had been spun 180 degrees out and the opening was totally blocked, which was causing my control head to stall on that zone. After I removed and inspected and made sure that pop-ups matched the schematic layout it all came together and has been functioning perfectly.

I have 6 zones, and the pop-up orifice openings range in diameter from 1/4" to 1/2".
Get your zone layout schematic and check the pop-up placement and the diameters of the opening, make sure they are not blocked and that they rotate easily after installing.

Thanks @trauert for sharing your experience. Yeah no doubt it's frustrating. But with you guys inputs I feel much supported . Yes, I plan to start looking at the popup heads themselves after I fix these leaks and ensure the module is good.

 

[proavia]

It's a 6 port module.
Yeah, you are absolutely right and I agreed it would be not easy fix. The dome is pressurized. But I thought the stem isn't under much pressure if the gauge is in place. If I remove the gauge and look down the stem, there is probably half an inch from the end of the crack to the actual hole, which is smaller in diameter than the stem itself. The dome is quite thick.

What material is the dome made out of?
There is a product named "Plast-Aid" that some have used on PVC and acrylic. No idea if it would work on the dome.
A product like that and a small stainless steel hose clamp around the nub may provide a temporary fix.

Like most things YMMV and you do the work at your own risk.

 

[VinceN]

What material is the dome made out of?
There is a product named "Plast-Aid" that some have used on PVC and acrylic. No idea if it would work on the dome.
A product like that and a small stainless steel hose clamp around the nub may provide a temporary fix.

Like most things YMMV and you do the work at your own risk.

The dome is made of some kind of composite or harden plastic. Thanks for the hose clamp idea. I was thinking about finding a tube that could fit over the stem, but finding the exact size would be hard. A hose clamp is a very good idea.

I believe the issue is like all of you have suggested, it's water pressure related.