Our Pool Is Making Us Cough

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P

patterrr

0
Bronze Supporter
Jun 25, 2016
32
Denver, CO
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-20
Hello all, I've been reading TFP for quite some time but this is my first post. Please excuse it's length, I want to include all relevant information.

In February we filled our newly constructed indoor pool. When it's open we get a slight tickle in our throats. Start splashing or turn no the Magic Stream laminar jets or spa jets, and it becomes much worse. We also notice that our guests cough so it isn't just us. There is no burning in the throat, just a tickle. It seems to be equally bad whether you're swimming with head just above water surface or standing on deck inhaling 6' above water surface. It wasn't as noticeable the first few months we had the pool. That being said, we just added the Magic Streams a few weeks ago. Over the summer we could open windows and turn on the big ventilation fan and it wasn't as bad. But now that winter is here our only ventilation is the HRV, so way fewer CFM (but still decent ventilation compared to say most hotel pools). I feel like this can be corrected though since it wasn't very noticeable last winter when we filled the pool, and I haven't noticed this at many hotels. Any ideas what this could be?

Test results (Taylor K-2105 & K-1515-A FAS-DPD):
FC: 1.2
CC: < 0.2 My FAS-DPD was 0.2ppm / drop, it turned ever so slightly pink when I added the CC reagent, then clear with one drop of the titrating reagent
PH: 7.8 I usually keep at 7.5 - 7.6, so added MA after the test
TA: 100-110
CH: 220
CYA: 0 See comments below
Salt: 4200 This used to be 3600 (ever since we first added salt), then I flushed our SWC with MA a couple weeks ago for first time and now reads 4200. Not sure what's going on.
Temp: 89 degF

Our pool builder supplied us with the following chemicals, saying to add them every other week:
GLB Natural Clear
GLB Algimycin 2000
GLB Super Sequa-Sol
GLB Clear Blue
Natural Chemistry Phos Free

I did so until about 6 weeks ago when I got lazy (actually we'll call it an experiment to see what would happen), and have found coughing to be the same, clarity to still be clear as ever, and no other problems without them. Maybe it hasn't been long enough... But it is nice not worrying about them.

Our pool builder told us that we MUST keep CYA at 0 since it's an indoor pool. I've read here on TFP that we should still have CYA, but I'm not sure how much for an indoor pool with SWG. I haven't bothered since not having CYA hasn't caused us any problems, and it's irreversible. ...unless it's causing this cough issue? I haven't read any evidence that it would though.

We keep the pool covered every second it's not in use. This helps us control the indoor humidity, keeps us from coughing, and most importantly keeps our 2yo safe. Not sure if it needs to 'breathe'? Also we haul our water here so refilling the pool is something that can't happen more than once every 3-4 years at a maximum. So I've been pretty conservative to not mess up chemicals in a way that would require a refill.

Lastly, our swimmer load is very light. Our family of 3 about 3 times a week, and up to 10-15 swimmers for parties once every few months. Haven't had other swimmers in at least two months right now.
 
Welcome top TFP... A really great place to be.. :lovetfp:

I don't know the answer to your question, but just wanted to say hello. :wave:

I do have one question. Do you smell chlorine like you would at a public pool?

I would not add any more of your "Magical" list of chemicals until you hear back from one of our chemical experts.

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.
 
CYA is needed even in an indoor pool. It acts as a buffer for the FC. It does look like you keep the FC lower so I am sure that helps with the comfort while swimming.

The coughing is worrisome. I have no idea what is going on as your CC is spot on.

Would you be willing to add enough CYA to shoot for 20? It will not hurt anything AND it just might be the answer to the cough. I really don't know if it will work BUT it cannot hurt.

I also have to wonder about the humidity around the pool causing the cough. Again not sure but thinking how asthmatics react to high humidity in the air (more coughing).

I am just throwing ideas out there for you to think about and see what you think might work and maybe give you some ideas to try.

Kim:kim:
 
Thanks for the replies.

Jim, to answer your question... You know how when you walk into the lobby of some hotels you instantly know it has a pool based on the smell? Well when you walk into our pool room it doesn't smell like 'pool' at all. I guess this is based on the chloramines in the air. Even in those hotels where you really can smell the pool I don't end up coughing in the pool room. It's just unpleasant to the nose.

Kim, I would be willing to add CYA. However, everything I've read on here involves using some sort of chlorine tablet that raises CYA over time. However with the SWG I want to just add CYA on its own. If somebody can point me to a thread or pool school that I missed on how to achieve this I'd appreciate it. I haven't seen an "indoor pool with SWG" chlorine / CYA chart. Should I just increase it to 3-5ppm FC once the CYA has been added?

The dehumidifier in the room kicks on at 40% relative humidity and then it never gets above about 53 - 55% relative humidity. So still lower than many places are naturally. Maybe microscopic water droplets in the air that don't show up as relative humidity? I don't know. I'm also worried that there's some chemical present in the pool that's not currently being tested for that's causing this.

With any luck somebody who has had the same problem and figured it out will read this. :idea: In the mean time I'm willing entertain thoughts and experiment.

- - - Updated - - -

MarianParoo said:
Another guess/thought:

Yes, the pool should breathe as that will outgas some CC. Maybe by the time you test the water, the CC's HAVE outgassed so the pool water tests okay, but the air still contains them.
Click to expand...

I always do my tests right after opening the pool, before swimming. Then about 10 minutes later, usually as the jets are running and kid is splashing, I start coughing. Is there any way to test to determine if there are chloramines present in the air? All I can say is even after open awhile the room doesn't smell like a typical hotel pool.
 
You can use this to add CYA. You can find it at Lowes, Walmart, etc:

Amazon.com : Clorox Pool Garden

You put it in a sock and hang it in front of the return or in the skimmer (taking care to not block the flow of water). Do NOT follow the directions on the bottle as we have done many "experiments" to see what works best/fastest to get it into the water. You can and should squeeze the sock to help it dissolve.

Indoor or outdoor you will use the same chart. It is ratio for CYA to FC that counts.

Good luck and keep us in the loop about what you do and don't do.

Kim:kim:
 
zea3 said:
You would keep the FC around 2-3 ppm for an indoor pool with 20ppm of CYA. You adjust the output on the SWG to keep the chlorine levels low. The nitrogen trichloride may be what is making you cough.
Target numbers for an indoor pool?
Click to expand...

+1 to zea3!

CC's come in three major "flavors" - monochloramine, dichloramine and nitrogen trichloride (those are the major ones, there are others). All of those are volatile and will outgas from water to a certain extent. The problem I see here is operating an indoor pool with no CYA and an FC at 1.5ppm or so. That's a lot more active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) than in any outdoor pool operated using the TFP Method. With high levels of hypochlorous acid in the water, nitrogen trichloride is going to form more readily. Nitrogen trichloride is EXTREMELY irritating and it has an odor threshold of about 20ppb (0.02ppm).

If you look at this detailed chemistry thread - Chloramines and FC/CYA , you'll find the following chart -

OXIDATION OF AMMONIA
SPECIES ........................... NO CYA ............ 30 ppm CYA
Monochloramine ............. 0.02 ppm ........... 0.70 ppm
Dichloramine .................. 2.97 ppb ............ 85.42 ppb
Nitrogen Trichloride ........ 70.96 ppb .......... 2.35 ppb
Click to expand...

What you'll notice is that, when no CYA present in water, the formation of nitrogen trichloride is heavily favored and can easily exceed the odor threshold. So, even in an indoor pool, you really want to have CYA in the water or else you will be breathing in some pretty noxious chemicals. The only other option is to lower the FC to below 1.0ppm BUT that will not be very practical because most pools have very poor hydraulic designs and there will be the risk of chlorine "dead spots" in the pool which can allow algae to grow.
 
kimkats said:
You can use this to add CYA. You can find it at Lowes, Walmart, etc:

Amazon.com : Clorox Pool Garden

You put it in a sock and hang it in front of the return or in the skimmer (taking care to not block the flow of water). Do NOT follow the directions on the bottle as we have done many "experiments" to see what works best/fastest to get it into the water. You can and should squeeze the sock to help it dissolve.
Click to expand...

Thanks Kim, I ordered it through Amazon (our Wal-Marts, Home Depots, etc. stopped carrying pool chemicals in August) so on Sunday when it gets here I'll bring our CYA up to 20 ppm. Thanks for the tip on how to apply it. Is there a chart around so that I can determine how much to add to bring 15K gallons to 20 ppm? The CYA test is kind of a pain and it sounds like CYA can't be tested until quite some time after it's added anyways.

zea3 said:
You would keep the FC around 2-3 ppm for an indoor pool with 20ppm of CYA. You adjust the output on the SWG to keep the chlorine levels low. The nitrogen trichloride may be what is making you cough.
Target numbers for an indoor pool?
Click to expand...
Thanks especially for that link to the target numbers for an indoor pool. I had not found that post during my searching and it's full of good info!

JoyfulNoise said:
+1 to zea3!
What you'll notice is that, when no CYA present in water, the formation of nitrogen trichloride is heavily favored and can easily exceed the odor threshold. So, even in an indoor pool, you really want to have CYA in the water or else you will be breathing in some pretty noxious chemicals. The only other option is to lower the FC to below 1.0ppm BUT that will not be very practical because most pools have very poor hydraulic designs and there will be the risk of chlorine "dead spots" in the pool which can allow algae to grow.
Click to expand...
Looking at this chart, it looks like CYA converts ammonia to dichloramine rather than nitrogen trichloride, as their ppb are reversed with the CYA. I assume dichloramine is much less noxious than nitrogen trichloride? This is very interesting. In addition to what you mentioned about keeping FC < 1ppm, I also find that it's a very difficult balance. When I set it that low, it'll be 0.2ppm one day when I test, so I'll turn it up slightly, then it'll be 1.4ppm the next time, so I'll turn it down one notch, then 0.4ppm next time... It's just very hard to control. So it'll be much easier if I'm targeting higher FC.

Thanks for the feedback, it's incredible how helpful the posters on this forum are. I'm excited for my CYA to get here so I can give this a try.
 

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Look what we have for you! http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html You are going to love this. There is a slight learning curve with it so play with is some before using it.

Here are some tips:

-look for now and target at the top, for some reason that gets missed

-use this chart for you levels Pool School - Recommended Levels please note they are a range. Each pool is different so it might take some tweaking to get it just right for YOUR pool

-go down to the bottom (yellow area at the very bottom) and set it up to use TFP's levels and for your pool type

If you KNOW your gallons you will be fine with your target of CYA at 20 using Pool Math. We have done some behind the scenes experiments and found that the CYA will show on the test as soon as it is all dissolved AND the water had a full turn over (pump running over night or during the day).

The CYA test can be a pain. With you shooting for 20 it will be even harder as the tube is set up for 30. BUT with Pool Math you will know it is 20 when you are done. Get a good look at what 20 looks like for you. Maybe even take a pic of it to remind you what it looks like in the future.

Kim:kim:
 
patterrr said:
Thanks for the feedback, it's incredible how helpful the posters on this forum are. I'm excited for my CYA to get here so I can give this a try.
Click to expand...

This is an impressive group of people, isn't it?

As you do, I also keep my pool covered whenever it's not in use to reduce humidity. The previous owners of my house used bromine and accepted algae, but I fortunately found the wisdom of this site early-on. After a drain and re-plaster of my pool, I gave away $100 worth of bromine pucks and I haven't looked back. I was aiming for 20-30 CYA, but overshot to more in the 30-40 range. I target 5ppm FC, and everyone who swims in it compliments the water. (perhaps to just get me to stop bragging about it, not to mention feigning interest in my TF-100 and speedstir...)

There's not even a slight odor to my pool. I would think that seeing people cough could be kind of scary!
 
I'm using 30ppm cya in my indoor pools and I can't smell any chlorine in the pool room but I do have a nice engineered air system but also can't smell chlorine even when swimming. my fc is around 8ppm in tub and pool. When I was running o cya and 1-3ppm chlorine it stunk real bad. I'm bumping cya to 40 in the tub to test soon.
 
Kim, thanks for the link to the calculator, I hadn't run across it before. I punched in 0 now and a target of 20. It kicked out: Add 40oz by weight or 42oz by volume of stabilizer or add 104oz of liquid stabilizer. The Clorox stabilizer that you pointed me to - would that be the 40oz since it isn't a liquid? I want to make sure I get it right since it's hard to read 20ppm with the test kit.

Thanks Rollercoastr and abycat for your experiences, that sounds very encouraging!
 
patterrr

here's my thought, and I stress this is not based on anything other than my body system, and I am not telling or suggesting what you should do.

I have an immune disorder which lets me (68 y/o) have Rosacea, and I don't have anything in our pool, except the TFP recommended chemicals, and I still get out after a swim and shower off to get the (ppm) of the chems off my body. This is just my system. If I don't do this, I pay for it with my skin.

I read the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) for the Phosfree that is in your pool. I reread the 1st 2 pages of it. Granted this is mixed with the pool water, but the 1st dose (directions) calls for a 600 ppm pool solution. And stronger dose if needed. Don't know how much you put in.

Again--this is full strength

Inhalation --If breathing is difficult, remove to fresh air and keep at rest in a position comfortable for breathing. Call a physician if symptoms develop or persist.
Skin contact Take off contaminated clothing and wash before reuse. Wash with plenty of soap and water. Get medical attention if irritation develops and persists.
Most important symptoms/effects, acute and delayed Symptoms may include stinging, tearing, redness, swelling, and blurred vision. Skin irritation. May cause redness and pain

I am not saying this has anything to do with it. What I'm am saying is that for me, my system (body not pool), I could not have this in my pool. I already have chems in it, and could not add more to try and handle it. You never know how much or little of something might affect someone, when others don't have a problem, but you might. To me 600 ppm is a good dose of a chem.

The above is meant as sincere, nothing else, but maybe a water change without the chem., to see if the tickling or coughing stops. Me, I would have to try that. Especially in an enclosed area.
 
I wanted to get out an update... I added 40 oz of CYA over about a 24 hour period on Monday and Tuesday. Several hours after the last of the stabilizer had dissolved I did a CYA test and barely saw any cloudiness even when the test tube was all the way full. I'll test again next week, as I only have enough reagent for a handful of tests. I'll give it a couple weeks to see if the tickle in the throat goes away.
 

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