Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - Completion and wrap up

[ajw22]

Per your request, I just put it in the standard 7.00 solution and it read 7.21! Another eye opening experience.

I recalibrated it and tested the pool water again. The Apera meter said 7.39 and to me the comparator showed around 7.4.

Allen called it! Just shows next time I better calibrate first! Anyone want a slightly used Apera pH meter?

Thus the problem with pH meters.

They may be accurate immediately after you calibrate it. After that who knows.

No calibration required for color comparator testing and the more you do it the more accurate you get.

BTW, my color perception has improved since I had cataract surgery. Developing cataracts as you age, even if before they are "ripe" for replacement, interferes with your color perception. Once you get it done the world becomes more colorful. You don't realize what you are not seeing.

 

[Dirk]

Allen called it! Just shows next time I better calibrate first! Anyone want a slightly used Apera pH meter?

You're proving my point about using a meter over the drop tests.

 

[Dirk]

Thus the problem with pH meters.

They may be accurate immediately after you calibrate it. After that who knows.

No calibration required for color comparator testing and the more you do it the more accurate you get.

BTW, my color perception has improved since I had cataract surgery. Developing cataracts as you age, even if before they are "ripe" for replacement, interferes with your color perception. Once you get it done the world becomes more colorful. You don't realize what you are not seeing.

True that! I had mine done weeks apart. With one old and one new, it's quite a shock when you learn what you've been looking through all that time.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Thus the problem with pH meters.

They may be accurate immediately after you calibrate it. After that who knows.

One more lesson learned! Calibration may not hold that long so it’s a good idea to check it with a standard solution first.

Glad I don’t have cataracts, yet. At least according to my last eye exam. I have horrible eyesight so I see the eye doc every year. Despite that, I still don’t see some colors that well.

You're proving my point about using a meter over the drop tests.

I’m doing a good job of that, aren’t I?

On to another topic.

I tested salt this morning and got 3,000. Glad I took my time bringing it up. For anyone curious, the SWG still had the red low salt light on and it registered 2,650 (and still does). I’ve read enough on TFP to know not to use SWG measured salt level for anything and to go by your own testing. This just confirms it, again.

The cell registered good flow all the way down to 400 rpm’s (which still gave me 16gpm). I’ve been running the pump 24x7 at 1,000 rpm’s so that will be plenty. I may even drop it a little. Just to see if the SWG would generate chlorine I set it to 20% and it went to work!

SWG lights:

• Salt level low - red light on
• Status
  • cold water light off
  • cell green light on while generating for 53 seconds and off the rest of the five minute period
  • flow green light on
• Sanitizer output - solid green light on showing 20%

I seem to be losing about 1-1.5 FC daily, but I haven’t been testing at regular times so it’s an educated guess. When I tested CYA yesterday it was 70 so based on my CYA of 70 the FC min is 3 and the target is 5-10. At 8am this morning I had FC at 8, so it seems like I’m starting from a good place as I tune the SWG. After playing around with the effects of adding functionality in PM it showed with the SWG set at 11% and the pump running 24x7 it would add about 1.2 daily (in the middle of my daily loss). I’ll start testing FC around the same time each evening for a little while as I dial it in. If I don’t maintain FC at 8 at the same time tomorrow I’ll goose it with a little liquid chlorine (thanks for the tip @Dirk) to get back to 8 and bump up the SWG percent whatever is needed to make up the delta.

I’m so looking forward to having this baby stabilized and officially join the TFP club!

I did a test this evening and FC was still at 8 and pH actually held steady. Feeling good!

Oh, despite the water being about 65 degrees, I had a little fun today with our golden retriever learning to swim. I started her on the ledge about a week ago, she now loves that. So today I went in, slowly, and once I acclimated I carried her from the ledge across the pool and helped her float as she paddled her way across the pool. We did that about 3 or 4 times and by the last time I gave her a gentle nudge forward and she swam the rest. I may regret it, but it’s gonna be heating up soon in Phoenix and I wanted to give her a way to cool off. She didn’t seem so happy last summer.

 

[bdavis466]

Careful with what you teach the dog….

 

[Dirk]

Despite that, I still don’t see some colors that well.

That is the exception to my opinion about pH meters. Some people cannot distinguishes colors well, or at all. In that scenario, a pH meter shines.

 

[Dirk]

• Salt level low - red light on

I just had this issue and had to replace my flow switch (which also measures the salt level). Even though my salt was 3000+, my SWG didn't think so, and unfortunately that's what matters. Even though you have enough salt, your SWG might not produce chlorine at 2650. When you get the flow dialed in, turn the SWG output up to 100% (temporarily). The cell light should come on, because at 100% the plates generate chlorine non-stop. If the Cell light does not come on, then the SWG is refusing to generate because of the salt level.

Also know that my SWG salt reading fluctuated from day to day while I was having this problem. So if you're right on the cusp of when it will and will not generate, don't assume one test run determines what it'll do tomorrow. Keep an eye on if for a while to make sure it is generating consistently, as it should. If it doesn't, I suppose you could try more salt, or you could try replacing the flow switch. Pentair wants an arm and a leg for a new switch, but there are 3rd party replacements that are cheaper. I had saved my old SWG, so I scavenged the flow switch from that. Plus, I didn't want to add more salt if I didn't have to.

This might have been why your SWG was having trouble maintaining FC. That's how I figured out to check mine, because my FC was not holding either.

 

[Dirk]

I may regret it

Just make sure she knows how to get out if she's by herself, including simulating her falling in and being disoriented about where the steps are. If she walks in, she'll more likely know how to get out. If she falls in, will she be able to orient to find the steps?

 

[Schwimmbad]

I just had this issue and had to replace my flow switch (which also measures the salt level). Even though my salt was 3000+, my SWG didn't think so, and unfortunately that's what matters. Even though you have enough salt, your SWG might not produce chlorine at 2650. When you get the flow dialed in, turn the SWG output up to 100% (temporarily). The cell light should come on, because at 100% the plates generate chlorine non-stop. If the Cell light does not come on, then the SWG is refusing to generate because of the salt level.

Also know that my SWG salt reading fluctuated from day to day while I was having this problem. So if you're right on the cusp of when it will and will not generate, don't assume one test run determines what it'll do tomorrow. Keep an eye on if for a while to make sure it is generating. If it doesn't, I suppose you could try more salt, or you could try replacing the flow switch. Pentair wants an arm and a leg for a new switch, but there are 3rd party replacements that are cheaper. I had saved my old SWG, so I scavenged the flow switch from that.

This might have been why your SWG was having trouble maintaining FC. That's how I figured out to check mine, because my FC was not holding either.

I saw the cell light come on for the times specified in the manual copied below.


In my first test at 20% the cell light was on for about 53 seconds. Once I decided to drop it to 11% it ran for a bit over 27 seconds. Are you saying I should still put it up to 100% to test it because it should run for nearly the entire 5 minutes and if there was an issue it would show up with the light not staying on for that long? Or maybe going off and coming back on? Where as with low percentages an issue might be more difficult to catch since it’s generating for short periods.

Just make sure she knows how to get out if she's by herself, including simulating her falling in and being disoriented about where the steps are. If she walks in, she'll more likely know how to get out. If she falls in, will she be able to orient to find the steps?

That’s a good point, will take your advice. As I think about this scenario, I have benches and the Baja around most of pool as other points where she can get relief if she gets disoriented. Regardless, very good comment.

 

[Dirk]

I saw the cell light come on for the times specified in the manual copied below.

View attachment 563507
In my first test at 20% the cell light was on for about 53 seconds. Once I decided to drop it to 11% it ran for a bit over 27 seconds. Are you saying I should still put it up to 100% to test it because it should run for nearly the entire 5 minutes and if there was an issue it would show up with the light not staying on for that long? Or maybe going off and coming back on? Where as with low percentages an issue might be more difficult to catch since it’s generating for short periods.


That’s a good point, will take your advice. As I think about this scenario, I have benches and the Baja around most of pool as other points where she can get relief if she gets disoriented. Regardless, very good comment.

I only suggested 100% because it makes it easier to catch the Cell light on (at 100% it shouldn't go off at all). Anything lower just means you have to wait around to watch it happen. If you saw that the Cell light came on at all, then your SWG is OK with the salt reading (at least that day it was). If your salt reading was actually 2650, you might have to start worrying about the chlorine production efficiency. But if you've got Taylor 3000+ and a Cell light, then you're in business.

If I remember right, ±400 is not even considered abnormal for a Pentair salt reading. And the Taylor test (at 10% accuracy) can be off by almost that much, too! So you might actually be as low as 2250, or as high as 3300! If you can get the Taylor test to give you something around 3, and get the SWG to run, then you're good-to-go.

If you can also see the tiny bubbles at one or more returns, when the cell light is on, that's even better. But, again, if you don't see them, it doesn't necessarily mean your SWG is not producing. It's just that seeing them means it definitely is.

 

[Dirk]

I have benches and the Baja around most of pool as other points where she can get relief if she gets disoriented.

Sounds like a dog-friendly pool.

I used to walk my dog behind what I think was an old novitiate. They had this weird, giant buried wooden tank that would always have rain water in it, but the water was at least 10-12' down. They also had this old wooden ladder laying around. So one day I got this hair-brained idea to put the ladder in the tank and see if I could get my lab to jump in and then climb out. I'm not sure who was dumber, me or the dog, but we tried it. He jumped! I couldn't believe it. And then he climbed out, up the ladder!! So that became our regular routine.

As I think about it now, the fact that that thing was there is pretty unbelievable. Some kid could have fallen in and been in there for days before being discovered. There were no houses around. Scary. And me! Geez, who knows what bacteria I subjected my dog to! But he loved it. So stupid (both of us)!

I think dogs are like people around water. Some you can't keep out of it, and are just naturally comfortable, others panic if they get splashed.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Little update

Intellichlor has been working well as I attempted to dial it in over the last two days. I had it set at 11% and I lost about 1 ppm over two days, got down to 7 (my personal target is 8, and minimum is 3). I gave the pool a drink of chlorine to get back to 8 and increased the SWG output to 15% (which should cover the two day delta of 1ppm). Acid demand seems to have thankfully slowed some as well, no acid needed yesterday as I let it go from 7.6 up to 7.8. Today it creeped up to around 8 and I gave it a 2 cups to drop it back down to 7.6.

Today I got an email to upgrade from intellicenter2 app to the Pentair Home app. I went through the instructions to upgrade and everything seemed to be ok. However a little later I got a intellichlor communication lost alert. I tried the intellicenter2 app and it seemed to work. I adjusted the SWG output 1% and it acted like it took it (thinking communication is backup). I went back to the Pentair home app and the communication lost alert was gone but a short time later I got a very low salt alert.

For what it’s worth the intellichlor now shows salt at 2,550. Figuring it wouldn’t generate but I like to test things out so to see if it would generate I bumped up the output to 100% and the lights on the intellichlor output all lit up to reflect 100% but the cell status didn’t come on. I proceeded to run the salt test (twice) and came up with 2,800. Seeing this and knowing I’m operating at the low end of the salt range I decided to add some more salt to get to 3,000. SWG is now off again while I try to make it happy. I’ll definitely have to keep an eye on the SWG for some period of time.

Is this likely just a coincidence that I upgrade the app and promptly got these alerts?

 

[Newdude]

I lost about 1 ppm over two days, got down to 7 (my personal target is 8, and minimum is 3). I gave the pool a drink of chlorine to get back to 8 and increased the SWG output to 15%

Ok let's talk about swing while it's far less of an issue.

15% makes 1.6 FC for you, over 24 hours. But you'll lose 100% of your daily loss in 6 to 8 hours during the day. No biggie right now with little daily loss and a 2+ day reserve over min, but that swing will matter alot more in June, July and August.

Once it's hot out, get several tests across the afternoon when it's convenient to find your low point of the day, then occasionally test at that time to ensure you still have a reserve.

When you're making adjustments, do so at the same time because 8 AM, 2PM and 7PM will always be a little different from each other.

 

[Dirk]

Little update

Intellichlor has been working well as I attempted to dial it in over the last two days. I had it set at 11% and I lost about 1 ppm over two days, got down to 7 (my personal target is 8, and minimum is 3). I gave the pool a drink of chlorine to get back to 8 and increased the SWG output to 15% (which should cover the two day delta of 1ppm). Acid demand seems to have thankfully slowed some as well, no acid needed yesterday as I let it go from 7.6 up to 7.8. Today it creeped up to around 8 and I gave it a 2 cups to drop it back down to 7.6.

Today I got an email to upgrade from intellicenter2 app to the Pentair Home app. I went through the instructions to upgrade and everything seemed to be ok. However a little later I got a intellichlor communication lost alert. I tried the intellicenter2 app and it seemed to work. I adjusted the SWG output 1% and it acted like it took it (thinking communication is backup). I went back to the Pentair home app and the communication lost alert was gone but a short time later I got a very low salt alert.

For what it’s worth the intellichlor now shows salt at 2,550. Figuring it wouldn’t generate but I like to test things out so to see if it would generate I bumped up the output to 100% and the lights on the intellichlor output all lit up to reflect 100% but the cell status didn’t come on. I proceeded to run the salt test (twice) and came up with 2,800. Seeing this and knowing I’m operating at the low end of the salt range I decided to add some more salt to get to 3,000. SWG is now off again while I try to make it happy. I’ll definitely have to keep an eye on the SWG for some period of time.

Is this likely just a coincidence that I upgrade the app and promptly got these alerts?

Sounds to me like you've got a great handle on all this.

I don't own, and don't know much about, IntelliCenter, but I do have some experience with Pentair hardware and software. I would NEVER update any firmware or software from Pentair until it was very much older. Never ever upon the first announcement. I follow the same rule for my computers, too, so it's not just Pentair. A year, at least, unless some component of the update is a fix for something you just can't do without. Software and hardware companies have gotten used to the public doing their beta-testing for them, without actually telling us we are beta-testing! Let others be the guinea pigs, and allow updates to circulate while early adopters discover and work out all the bugs, especially on mission critical equipment like your pool automation controller.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Ok let's talk about swing while it's far less of an issue.

15% makes 1.6 FC for you, over 24 hours. But you'll lose 100% of your daily loss in 6 to 8 hours during the day. No biggie right now with little daily loss and a 2+ day reserve over min, but that swing will matter alot more in June, July and August.

Once it's hot out, get several tests across the afternoon when it's convenient to find your low point of the day, then occasionally test at that time to ensure you still have a reserve.

When you're making adjustments, do so at the same time because 8 AM, 2PM and 7PM will always be a little different from each other.

I'll try to do the testing right around sunset each day, give or take a little. That may not happen consistently, but the idea is to measure it when I won't have any more loss from sunlight.

If I shoot for FC to be 1 or 2 below the upper level of the target range at sunset and get the SWG output to match my daily loss won't sunset consistently be my FC low point? I won't lose any FC overnight and the SWG will be building it back up.

I put this in a simple table to try to make it clear in my mind. The assumption is daily loss of 2 (which I evenly divided by the daylight hours) and SWG output of 2 with my target being 8 at sunset (CYA 70, min is 3 and target range is 5 to 10).

By the way, this ignores FC loss due to other things which probably isn't the best approach. It also assumes loss is the same over daylight hours, which also probably isn't accurate, but it approximates the idea. I know this changes over the course of the year (daylight hours and associated FC loss) and my example is just a point in time, but does this example illustrate the approach?



By the way, I got my salt level up and the SWG is back in business. I added about 20 lbs and strangely tested it at 2,800 again! And the intellichlor came up with 2,850.

 

[proavia]

In the not too distant future you will be losing 4ppm FC during the day. Summer in AZ is almost here.
Running right at or just above the upper end of the target range means you will be less likely to micro manage your pool and have more time to actually enjoy it. Running a bit on the high side also means you won't have to worry as much, espicially during/after a large pool use event. Be aware that the pH test isn't valid with FC > 10 - so only test pH when FC is 10 or less.

 

[Newdude]

That may not happen consistently, but the idea is to measure it when I won't have any more loss from sunlight.

That still may not be your low point. At some point in the afternoon, the SWG will match the loss, then produce more than the loss. Then it'll go dark some time later. UV loss starts low in the morning and peaks as the sun is it's highest in the sky, then falls with the sun. The SWG might match it at 3pm.

Maybe by testing every hour across the afternoon you see it holds consistent. But find out once it's hot, and then you'll know the difference, if there is a difference, no matter when you test.

For example. Today you test at 7pm and know you probably picked up 1ppm since the low point. Next time you test at 9am and know you will drop 3 ppm at the low point.

(Etc etc)

I know this changes over the course of the year (daylight hours and associated FC loss) and my example is just a point in time, but does this example illustrate the approach

You have to road test it and also test-test it. Think how you don't catch a sunburn at 7 AM but you're torched in 5 mins at lunch.

Intensity fluctuates throughout the day, and also throughout the season. Both are usually a bell curve.

 

[proavia]

I'm in the East Valley. I run 24/7 - pump and SWG.
My FC doesn't fluctuate much, but gets to its lowest point between 3pm and 5pm in the summer. That coincides more or less with the high temp point of the day - usually.
I keep my FC on the high side - maybe even a little bit "hot" - and now I just don't worry about it much. I still regularly test and adjust the SWG as needed. When I go out of town, I adjust pH down to 7.2-7.4 and increase the SWG output 5%-10%. Always come home to a well balanced pool - even after 2 weeks. I have a trusted neighbor empty the skimmer basket if there is a wind event or monsoon storm.

 

[Schwimmbad]

UV loss starts low in the morning and peaks as the sun is it's highest in the sky, then falls with the sun.

Intensity fluctuates throughout the day, and also throughout the season. Both are usually a bell curve like

This made me think of the UV index you see on weather apps. This UV Index chart for today and your comment about bell curves drives the point home for me. I’m guessing you could simply visualize this as “FC loss” instead of UV index.

I'm in the East Valley. I run 24/7 - pump and SWG.
My FC doesn't fluctuate much, but gets to its lowest point between 3pm and 5pm in the summer. That coincides more or less with the high temp point of the day - usually.
I keep my FC on the high side - maybe even a little bit "hot" - and now I just don't worry about it much. I still regularly test and adjust the SWG as needed. When I go out of town, I adjust pH down to 7.2-7.4 and increase the SWG output 5%-10%. Always come home to a well balanced pool - even after 2 weeks. I have a trusted neighbor empty the skimmer basket if there is a wind event or monsoon storm.

Wouldn’t my low point be pretty much the same? Does your pool get full sun throughout the day? My pool has full sun until about 5pm.

 

[Dirk]

Like my brothers, I run FC a little hot. But unlike them, I don't run 24/7. I run my pump during optimal hours to heat my pool with solar. And that's when I run my SWG. So my SWG is adding chlorine mostly only when the sun is depleting it. Which means I have less of a swing. (And in fact have never bothered to figure it out, because I don't really have to, because I run FC hot.)

And because I also run an IntellipH, during those same hours, which adds a little acid each hour, instead of dumping a bunch in once or twice a week, my pH swing is also minimal. Which I feel (unscientifically) is better for skin, mine and my pool's. If there is a perfect pH for both, then striving to maintain that pH 100% of the time is a goal. Maybe not a necessary goal, or even one that would make any noticeable difference in the short or long term, but a goal that happens to be as easy to strive for as not (because of my IpH).

I'm not suggesting one MO is better than another, just pointing out that there is another.