New pool (Delaware) - concrete, salt, LP heat, infinity edge

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Sep 26, 2023
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DE
I have never owned or had any experience maintaining a pool. I'm looking for advice. It would be nice to keep it as inexpensive or as easy as possible to maintain. Originally I was going to do an automatic cover but that limits what you can do.

pool.jpg16x28 3-5.5ft deep Pool quote consists of the following (with extra options below):
  • Obtain permit
  • excavation
  • backfill and indoctrination #57 gravel base
  • 3/8" rebar
  • 4500 psi shotcrete shell White/Blue plaster finish Sun shelf landing area
  • Pool Coping Waterline and accent trim tile on stairs and benches 3 return lines
  • 2 skimmers
  • 2 main drains
  • Automatic cover
  • Automatic pool cleaner
  • LED multicolor light and controller
  • 320 sq' cartridge filter Salt generator 1 HP pump motor
  • Maintenance and chemical kits
  • Water to fill pool
  • Form-fit mesh winter safety cover

  • Options: *Variable speed energy efficient pool pump *250,000 BTU pool heater *Glass tile upgrade *2" coping is an upgrade *Coping upgrade *Plaster Upgrade (Diamond Brite or Pebble Tech
 
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Hello there! You sure have come to the right place to build and care for a pool!

Lets talk about your depth first. 3' is too shallow do a good crawl stoke in. You need at least 3'5". Me? I would go 4' to 6' for your depth.

Now lets talk about WATER depth. WATER depth should be from the bottom of the pool to the middle of the skimmer opening. Some people measure the depth from the bottom of the pool to just under the coping. If it is measured that way you lose quite a bit of water depth.

Kim
 
Welcome to TFP.

You should get brand and model number for all equipment included in your build and we can let you know if we think it is suitable for you.

You should be getting a VS pump.

Your SWG should at least 2X your pool volume.

What will your pool finish be?

What size plumbing?

Everything should be specified so you know what you are buying.

What is the payment schedule?



 
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Thank you for the comments on water depth. My main concerns are the maintenance, cool factor and functionality. It would be nice to be able to swim laps, play pool volleyball and have the sound of water. I'm looking forward to a third concept that would tie the three areas together (fire pit, pool and kitchen).

I was considering doing pebbletec and glow in the dark bottom.

I will get all the specifics for things that really matter and post those before committing. Right now I would love input on the size, location of the pool, shape, features so I can get all that hammered out first. We're close to the water so I think we are doing 12 or so 20' sub surface pilings.
 
Hey, I’m also in S DE and somewhat recently had a pool built (about 4 yrs ago). I probably don’t have much in the way of specific advice — pool itself isn’t really a regional thing. A few universal principles (in the seems to me category :) ):

1. The PB you choose is likely the single most important factor driving how happy you end up with the process and final product. Vet them carefully and prioritize the satisfaction of their existing customers and what you thought about pools they’ve already done over price. We got three bids, which really were not all that far apart, and went with the PB that has done most of the pools in our neighborhood, did designs that we could go see and we liked, and the existing customers were happy with.

2. If you don’t know much about pools, learn as much as you can before plunking down a deposit. A pool design is a very individualistic thing. Do you want a big pool, smaller pool, integrated spa, sprays, a waterfall over a rock ledge, grotto, slide, lounging ledge, umbrella mounts, sports net supports, in water bar and seats, large single patio area, small patio with close in landscaping, multiple patios, pergola, on and on. What I like probably isn’t exactly what you like or what anybody else likes and vice-versa. The key is to know as much as possible about what’s available out there, go nuts on the internet in reviewing different designs and ideas, then as you start to narrow down what you really want based on how you plan to use the pool, you should ask here because there’s a near certainty that somebody here has whatever the feature is and can comment on the pros and cons from first hand experience. I can say for us, at our age, pool parties turn into more like parties that happen to also have a pool, so the whole “outdoor experience” geared at entertaining at different outdoor “scenes” or “rooms” with strategic landscaping between was an important part of the whole concept. The pool was important, of course, but find a builder who sort of gets your vision for an entire project and can design with accommodations in mind for where you’re ultimately going.

3. Maintenance is what it is. You can do it yourself with the right tools and knowledge. You can hire it out if you’re willing to do some supervision (and around here it’s crazy expensive — the last bid I got was over a hundred a week). Either way, get the right test kit the day a shovel goes in the ground so you’re ready to keep your eye on the water chemistry and sanitation.

Anyway, ask away and you will get good advice on this website!
 
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I don't have the quote yet but I like this design the most. It takes the three separate areas I was planning to do and combines it into one.

Two lounge ledges, waterfall, infinity edge, swim up bar, fire put cut in, fire torches and recessed kitchen. The pool overall size is 20' with bowed front x 32'

PB mentioned we would need to do a variable speed pump and I think add a second pump for the infinity edge. 3" plumbing. There will probably be other pertinent information on the quote.

Do you see any potential future headaches with this design?

IMG_20231005_100828.jpgIMG_20231005_101147.jpgIMG_20231005_101155.jpg
 
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Do you see any potential future headaches with this design?
Welcome to the forum.
Very complex design. Cleaning the pool will be challenging with lots of places that vacuums/robots cannot reach. Infinity edge automatically makes it very complex. Typically have to run the pump at high rpm when running over the infinity edge. It takes significant water flow to make a continuous covered edge.

As long as you are prepared for the expense and time to manage and maintain this complex design, it is pretty.
 

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I think the design is beautiful. I also think its a pool trying to do too many things for my liking. To me, fire pits are distinct things from pools. Enjoying a fire, as I do many nights per year, is a very separate thing from swimming. They often happen at different times of the year (with overlap for sure). Your pool will be closed for 5-6 months per year during which your fires will be next to a covered pool (same with the bar). And there is no comfortable seating near the fire pit. I always sit by mine using a chair with a back. Nor space to move about near the pit. I picture our many nights of friends wandering around the fire pit and elsewhere. The price per square foot of water surface area is very high. That may not matter, but for me, having pool space was about 80% and environment was 20%. Yours seems to be more like 50/50. Not enough "free" water space for me. Kids jumping and splashing will put a good bit of water on the bar area. You may not have kids, but there will likely be someone's kids there during the life of the pool. Sitting in some of those areas will have significant blind spots for watching small swimmers for safety purposes. I don't thing there's one place to sit and see the whole pool, expect maybe in the bar area standing up. Covering this for the winter seems problematic. Yes, they'll design a cover, but the realities of it may not be ideal at all. I do also agree with Marty on cleaning. I certainly value my robot's ability to clean my pool. This pool will be manually brushed/vacuumed often.

Again, it's beautiful until I let my personal 'lens' think about how it will be used and maintained.

The design compromises of an autocover also comes with significant benefits that are hard to appreciate until you'll enjoyed them for several seasons. Day to day cleanliess, safety, early & late season cleanliness, heat retention are among my top items.
 
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Infinity edge pools require A LOT of careful design and engineering work especially if you are trying to achieve that look over all four sides. You won’t realize it from the pretty pictures but to get even a 3/16” bead of water to build up around the perimeter of the pool and do so evenly requires atomic-level accuracy at creating straight and plumb edges as well as a large amount of water volume to push over that edge. Assuming the builder gets the pool level (which is a bad assumption to make), you’re likely going to need separate pumps for the infinity edge versus filtration and sanitation.

I would very carefully investigate how infinity edge pools are constructed and the engineering requirements for them. Unless your chosen builder is an expert at infinity pools or has built dozens of them, just letting any old PB do the job is asking for a lot of headaches. Most people think "Oh, the PB is an 'expert' and I'll just rely on their knowledge and they'll be responsible for making everything work right ..." and that's where the troubles begin. So I suggest you take a pause with the designs you have and start to really investigate the design of these types of pools and what will be required to make them operate properly. Then you can better understand builder proposals and make necessary changes early in the process when its easier and less stressful. Once the excavator puts its shovel into the ground, the clock is ticking and the PB will want the job finished as quickly as possible to maximize profit. So trying to stop work in the middle of a build to correct or make changes is a huge issue and will cause lots of angry feelings on both sides.

Perhaps @setsailsoon can give some insights into infinity edge pool design as he was also building one. Maybe Chris can share some his learning.
 
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Infinity edge pools require A LOT of careful design and engineering work especially if you are trying to achieve that look over all four sides. You won’t realize it from the pretty pictures but to get even a 3/16” bead of water to build up around the perimeter of the pool and do so evenly requires atomic-level accuracy at creating straight and plumb edges as well as a large amount of water volume to push over that edge. Assuming the builder gets the pool level (which is a bad assumption to make), you’re likely going to need separate pumps for the infinity edge versus filtration and sanitation.

I would very carefully investigate how infinity edge pools are constructed and the engineering requirements for them. Unless your chosen builder is an expert at infinity pools or has built dozens of them, just letting any old PB do the job is asking for a lot of headaches. Most people think "Oh, the PB is an 'expert' and I'll just rely on their knowledge and they'll be responsible for making everything work right ..." and that's where the troubles begin. So I suggest you take a pause with the designs you have and start to really investigate the design of these types of pools and what will be required to make them operate properly. Then you can better understand builder proposals and make necessary changes early in the process when its easier and less stressful. Once the excavator puts its shovel into the ground, the clock is ticking and the PB will want the job finished as quickly as possible to maximize profit. So trying to stop work in the middle of a build to correct or make changes is a huge issue and will cause lots of angry feelings on both sides.

Perhaps @setsailsoon can give some insights into infinity edge pool design as he was also building one. Maybe Chris can share some his learning.

It's not the first infinity edge this particular PB has done but I will ask exactly how many and ask for those as references.

The placement of the kitchen directly in the middle of the infinity edge does kind of mess up the illusion of water from the pool carrying on into the river behind the house. Maybe another design for that wall would be easier to install but still provide the sounds of running water and be visually interesting to look at?
 
Infinity edge pools require A LOT of careful design and engineering work especially if you are trying to achieve that look over all four sides. You won’t realize it from the pretty pictures but to get even a 3/16” bead of water to build up around the perimeter of the pool and do so evenly requires atomic-level accuracy at creating straight and plumb edges as well as a large amount of water volume to push over that edge. Assuming the builder gets the pool level (which is a bad assumption to make), you’re likely going to need separate pumps for the infinity edge versus filtration and sanitation.

I would very carefully investigate how infinity edge pools are constructed and the engineering requirements for them. Unless your chosen builder is an expert at infinity pools or has built dozens of them, just letting any old PB do the job is asking for a lot of headaches. Most people think "Oh, the PB is an 'expert' and I'll just rely on their knowledge and they'll be responsible for making everything work right ..." and that's where the troubles begin. So I suggest you take a pause with the designs you have and start to really investigate the design of these types of pools and what will be required to make them operate properly. Then you can better understand builder proposals and make necessary changes early in the process when its easier and less stressful. Once the excavator puts its shovel into the ground, the clock is ticking and the PB will want the job finished as quickly as possible to maximize profit. So trying to stop work in the middle of a build to correct or make changes is a huge issue and will cause lots of angry feelings on both sides.

Perhaps @setsailsoon can give some insights into infinity edge pool design as he was also building one. Maybe Chris can share some his learning.
Sorry for the delay... family health issue got the better of us for last month+. So here's a summary of what I learned about knife edge (also called zero edge) and infinity edge pools:

  • As Matt points out any kind of edge flow requires a LOT of flow to make it work right. Mine is 32' long and will easily need the large 5 hp commercial Pentair VS pump. Thanks to @JamesW for his help on this.
  • Construction is more difficult since the edge will need to be +/- 1/16" on any of the flow-over edges, In my case it's all edges since mine is zero edge on 3 sides and infinity edge on the 4th edge over the back looking toward a lake behind the house.
  • The spill over basin needs to be sized for the worst case to fill pipe volumes and basin, bather surge, volume of edge raised in pool and to overcome variances in edge tolerance.
  • The gutters may require a two step spray. First they spray outer part then insert foam then spray the inside. Foam is removed when the concrete dries.
I hope this is helpful.

Chris
 
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Here's my new quote on the pool. Does the payment schedule seem normal? Does the equipment selection seem correct? Everything else normal? Any concerning things? All input is welcome :)

It's mostly 3" and 2" piping.

The price is for the pool only. All the hardscaping, lighting, pavilion is additional.
poolquote2.jpg
poolquote.jpg
 
I don’t have much to say on design or equipment, others will. But the payment schedule is heavily front loaded with no retainer at the end. On any project of this size, holding a 10% amount until YOU are satisfied the job is complete is reasonable.

$143k x 10% ≈ $15k

I would ask for at least the $80k part of the payment to be reduced by $15k and hold that at the end of the job until your final punchlist is satisfied.

EDIT - actually, ask for 15% but be willing to compromise down to 10%
 
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Also, get a lot of details on the excavator payment. It is not just a flat fee typically but based on the number of truck loads that are hauled off and the type of material excavated, ie, mostly sand/soil or will there be big boulders and lots of rocks. You need to know what the potential additional charges will be if the excavator takes longer than the proposed time to finish the job or if they hit “hard dig” conditions and require heavier equipment.
 
You also need to know who is responsible for property damages during the dig. In my dig ten years ago, the PB failed to mark off the electrical feed line from my main panel to the guesthouse. When they excavator started digging, they yanked up and broke the conduit that had the feed lines in it. Thankfully the lines were not damaged but the pull ripped the lines out of my main panel and sent hot wire shorting into the neutral bar. That caused an overload in several circuits and damaged a ton of electrical appliances inside my home. The PB was willing to foot the bill to fix the conduit and panel but he said all the stuff inside my home was on me. My HO Insurance wouldn’t cover any of it as they said it was the excavators fault and I should go after them.

Little details like that are important.
 
I would never agree to that payment schedule with that much paid before any work is done.

How are you going to chlorinate your pool? You should get an Intellichlor SWG.

  • FMS 48 Filter - Does the FNS Plus 48 DE filter include the required MPV?
  • IntellaCenter ISP - IntelliCenter 5P or 8P or 10P? How many relays are you getting?
  • 3 HP Whisper Flow Vari-Speed Pump - WhisperFlo VST pump is 2.6HP. What model number pump are you getting?
  • 250,000 BTU Pool heater - What model? MasterTemp? Max-E-Therm? Why 250K and not 400K?
  • Water to fill pool - Builder delivering water on water trucks?


1699640132633.png
 

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