New Gunite Pool Water Chemistry - Please Help

[Weemonks19]

Hello. I am new to this site and looking for some much needed guidance. I am currently in week 2 of my new pool startup and having difficulty balancing the water. The interior of my pool is a PebbleFina finish which I have been brushing regularly as it cures to remove the plaster dust, but I cannot seem to get my water levels where they need to be. My PH in particular has been above 8 since the day after the pool was filled. I've been using a Taylor K-2006 test kit and my initial acid demand test on day 2 required 10 drops of R-0005. Following daily additions of dry acid, it has since been reduced to 1 drop of R-0005 as of this morning, BUT, now my TA level is significantly lower. My total levels are as follows:

TA: 60
PH: >8
CH: 150
CYA: <30 (water sample never clouded and black dot in test tube was clearly visible)
FC, TC, CC: 0 (haven't added chlorine yet since other levels are out of range)

I am not sure what to do next. I was advised by a local pool store to lower the PH to within range before tackling the other levels. But since this is new pool plaster I am not sure if that is the correct approach, as it would seem the TA should now come up. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Stop going to the pool store as you are just a sale to them and they're often clueless, and stop using Dry Acid.... it is not a great way to get anything done quickly and it leaves behind sulphites you don't want in the water anyway. Use 31% Muriatic Acid (standard precautions apply) found in the paint section or pool section at Lowes.

You MUST get some bleach in there TODAY or it will be green soon. Plain, unsecented, 8.25% bleach. Add a gallon per day until you get your own test kit (one of the recommended ones please) and we'll know how to advise you based on accurate test results.

Start reading PoolSchool above- specifically :
Pool School - Start-up New Plaster
WELCOME to TFP! We can teach you how to ROCK THIS!

Maddie

 

[Geebot]

Did you install this yourself or did you hire someone to do it? If you hired someone did they not advise you on proper maintenance for the first month?

 

[Weemonks19]

Thanks for the feedback. The test results I posted are mine based on the Taylor 2006-K test kit and not the pool store's. Is the Taylor not a recommended kit? Also, is it fine for me to add both the acid and bleach on the same day? I have an in-line chlorine feeder already loaded with 1" tablets. I just haven't turned it on (again, based on other guidance). If that's an option I can just open that up tonight to add chlorine....unless I need to get more in the water than that can provide. Appreciate the quick response and guidance!

 

[Weemonks19]

Did you install this yourself or did you hire someone to do it? If you hired someone did they not advise you on proper maintenance for the first month?

The pool was installed by a builder and, yes, they did provide advice on proper maintenance during the first 28 days. However, the guidance is a bit vague in terms of complete water care. They stress to first maintain a TA of 80-100 PPM and then bring the PH into a range of 7.2 - 7.6. Then, only after the TA is adjusted to at least 80 PPM and the PH is stable in the range, to add calcium to raise the CH to a minimum of 150 PPM. After that, I can add chlorine to achieve 1.5 - 3 PPM, but again, ONLY if TA, PH, and CH are stable at their recommended levels. The problem I am having is I cannot get the PH into the desired range. The addition of acid has helped to some degree, at least based on the acid demand test, but the sample still registers above Taylor's top threshold of 8. Now, as a result of the acid treatments, my TA has dropped to 60 PPM, which seems to put me right back at step 1, except this time my CH has self-adjusted to 150 PPM. Because the PebbleFina plaster is brand new, I don't want to do anything to aggressive that could ruin the finish, but I seem to be stuck in a vicious cycle that is delaying me from getting other needed chemicals into the pool. I guess what I want/need to know is can I just start adjusting the other levels even though the PH is still not in range? I've read elsewhere that new plaster in general can have an adverse affect on PH for up to a year, so something has to give. Thanks.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Thanks for the feedback. The test results I posted are mine based on the Taylor 2006-K test kit and not the pool store's. Is the Taylor not a recommended kit? No no! Its a great kit...I just totally missed that you already had this.

Also, is it fine for me to add both the acid and bleach on the same day? Abso-freakin'lutely!!! Space 'em out by about 10 minutes and brush between additions while the pump is running.

I have an in-line chlorine feeder already loaded with 1" tablets. I just haven't turned it on (again, based on other guidance). We discourage the routine use of pucks as they do add almost as much CYA as chlorine, but in your case you can afford them *if* you monitor your CYA test level carefully to not overdo it. Take'em out and go to bleach or SWG after you hit 30ppm. Don't leave them in the device at all.

If that's an option I can just open that up tonight to add chlorine....unless I need to get more in the water than that can provide. Appreciate the quick response and guidance!

NEVER add anything except the proper type puck in a autochlorinator device. Like, never EVER. Bad practice and potentially dangerous as heck.

Just pour the bleach in a thin stream in front of a return and let the flowing water help mix it in to the pool.

Mother Maddie

 

[Clyde]

I am certainly not an expert, but I put in a plaster pool two years ago. During the first two years, my pH was out of control (very similar to what you are experiencing). I just adjusted the TA to around 100, and then literally on a weekly basis, had to add muriatic acid (don't remember how much, but it was at least a quart or two a week, maybe more. My pH would be at least 8, then I would knock it down within range, and then the folowing week would need to do it again.

My pool builder said this is common in the first year or two until the plaster cures (not sure if that is true, but now it's the third year and everything is perfectly stable).

I never added acid and bleach at the same time. I always waited at least a few hours between them. The pool guy told me if you mix acid and the bleach, it make chlorine gas, which is fatal. Not sure if this is right, but I didn't take the chance.

Hope this helps.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

I am certainly not an expert, but I put in a plaster pool two years ago. During the first two years, my pH was out of control (very similar to what you are experiencing). I just adjusted the TA to around 100, and then literally on a weekly basis, had to add muriatic acid (don't remember how much, but it was at least a quart or two a week, maybe more. My pH would be at least 8, then I would knock it down within range, and then the folowing week would need to do it again.

My pool builder said this is common in the first year or two until the plaster cures (not sure if that is true, but now it's the third year and everything is perfectly stable).

I never added acid and bleach at the same time. I always waited at least a few hours between them. The pool guy told me if you mix acid and the bleach, it make chlorine gas, which is fatal. Not sure if this is right, but I didn't take the chance.

Hope this helps.

Yup, all very common the first year to have that pH rise repeatedly. And each time you knock it down to 7.2, it helps bring that TA down too, and that is how we tell folks to lower their TA when needed.

Bleach and Chlorine are NOTORIOUSLY dangerous. You read this warning on every cleaning product found in bathrooms and such.... scary. Individually they're fine, you just don't EVER EVER NEVER mix bleach, acid, ammonia and the like......Ok?

You can add them closer than a couple of hours apart. 15 minutes and each at a different end of the pool is good practice. Once mixed in the water they're fine.

Maddie

 

[skimmerswimmer]

When I had my Pebble Fina finish installed, I went through A LOT of muriatic acid (I was adding almost a gallon a week for the first few months). Did they do a hot start on your pool? If so, then in order for you to get rid if the residual "cream", you need to keep the PH low...like 7.0-7.2. Keep brushing, and keep adding acid. A low TA will help keep your PH from rising so fast, so you can bring that down to 50-60 if need be. You can also redirect your returns so they don't expose so much water to the air (point them slightly down). My PH rise didn't settle down until the following season, and the first winter I closed the pool, I wound up with some scaling upon opening because I didn't bring the PH down low enough before closing.

Add stabilizer (or use pucks in a floater) until you get your CYA up to 30-50 ppm. Pucks will help keep the PH down as well, so it is not bad to use them upon startup, but discontinue them once your CYA gets to where it needs to be. Add bleach to get your FC up to target levels...1-3 PPM is not a good target once your CYA is in the proper range, so ignore those instructions. Read about the FC/CYA relationship to figure out your proper levels.

Good luck!!

 

[Weemonks19]

I am certainly not an expert, but I put in a plaster pool two years ago. During the first two years, my pH was out of control (very similar to what you are experiencing). I just adjusted the TA to around 100, and then literally on a weekly basis, had to add muriatic acid (don't remember how much, but it was at least a quart or two a week, maybe more. My pH would be at least 8, then I would knock it down within range, and then the folowing week would need to do it again.

My pool builder said this is common in the first year or two until the plaster cures (not sure if that is true, but now it's the third year and everything is perfectly stable).

I never added acid and bleach at the same time. I always waited at least a few hours between them. The pool guy told me if you mix acid and the bleach, it make chlorine gas, which is fatal. Not sure if this is right, but I didn't take the chance.

Hope this helps.

Thanks! This was helpful, at the very least a sanity check for me. Did you just go ahead and start adding other chemicals to balance everything else out while the PH was bouncing up and down? That seems to be where I am at now. Do I continue the fight or just move ahead and add the other chemicals needed to get some semblence of good water chemistry.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Thanks! This was helpful, at the very least a sanity check for me. Did you just go ahead and start adding other chemicals to balance everything else out while the PH was bouncing up and down? That seems to be where I am at now. Do I continue the fight or just move ahead and add the other chemicals needed to get some semblence of good water chemistry.

You're missing the message here-With new plaster the pH will be bouncing around for up to a year and you'll treat it and move on. And you'll treat it again, and again yet it still needs other chemicals in there the entire time too.

Maddie

 

[Weemonks19]

You're missing the message here-With new plaster the pH will be bouncing around for up to a year and you'll treat it and move on. And you'll treat it again, and again yet it still needs other chemicals in there the entire time too.

Maddie

Message was well received! I think I misstated what I was really questioning which was, can I go ahead and just start adding all the other chemicals? The answer is obviously a resounding yes. I know th PH issue will be a constant battle. Being a first time pool owner I'm just overthinking everything! Thanks again for the good advice.

 

[Weemonks19]

When I had my Pebble Fina finish installed, I went through A LOT of muriatic acid (I was adding almost a gallon a week for the first few months). Did they do a hot start on your pool? If so, then in order for you to get rid if the residual "cream", you need to keep the PH low...like 7.0-7.2. Keep brushing, and keep adding acid. A low TA will help keep your PH from rising so fast, so you can bring that down to 50-60 if need be. You can also redirect your returns so they don't expose so much water to the air (point them slightly down). My PH rise didn't settle down until the following season, and the first winter I closed the pool, I wound up with some scaling upon opening because I didn't bring the PH down low enough before closing.

Add stabilizer (or use pucks in a floater) until you get your CYA up to 30-50 ppm. Pucks will help keep the PH down as well, so it is not bad to use them upon startup, but discontinue them once your CYA gets to where it needs to be. Add bleach to get your FC up to target levels...1-3 PPM is not a good target once your CYA is in the proper range, so ignore those instructions. Read about the FC/CYA relationship to figure out your proper levels.

Good luck!!

Thanks for the additional information. I'll give this a try. Considering you also have a PebbleFina finish I'm hoping this will do the trick. Painful to have these hot temps in the Northeast but not able to swim.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Don't forget to register your finishes with PebbleFina

Product Registration - Pebble Tec

Maddie

 

[Clyde]

Message was well received! I think I misstated what I was really questioning which was, can I go ahead and just start adding all the other chemicals? The answer is obviously a resounding yes. I know th PH issue will be a constant battle. Being a first time pool owner I'm just overthinking everything! Thanks again for the good advice.

I agree. Keep treating the water as you normally would (chlorine, etc.) with the understanding that the pH is going to keep rising. Just keep putting more acid in on a weekly basis to get the pH down to normal, and realize the following week it is going to be high again (and just use more acid). As indicated, I did this for 2 seasons, and now in the third season, the pH is stable and everything else is great. Good luck. Read the Pool School materials and do a search online of water chemistry (there is a good online book (free) that's about 25 pages from a chemist that is easy to read and that's basically all you need to know (in addition to posting questions here about specifics). I read the Pool School and that online paper several times over and over. I was just as crazy when I first got my pool, but now it's actually fun now that I understand how water "works".

 

[mknauss]

I noticed three items ( though I think they are really only two) in your signature that are not harmful, but you may have been told are more helpful than they really are.
Paramount Clear; O3 Ozone Genreator; Paramount Ultra UV System

These will not reduce your need for FC (free chlorine). So if you were told that, I recommend you search this forum for the threads that discuss this.

Take care ---

 

[Weemonks19]

I noticed three items ( though I think they are really only two) in your signature that are not harmful, but you may have been told are more helpful than they really are.
Paramount Clear; O3 Ozone Genreator; Paramount Ultra UV System

These will not reduce your need for FC (free chlorine). So if you were told that, I recommend you search this forum for the threads that discuss this.

Take care ---

Yes, I am now aware of this having read through a number of different posts in this forum. If only I had this information prior to making the purchase. I had originally intended to purchase a SWCG but was swayed by the salesperson to consider ozone and UV because with this setup I would only need 1/8 of the actual chlorine necessary to sanitize the pool, which could be administered by an inline chlorinator. I now know this is not true. Fortunately, the price was the same as the SWCG, except now I'll need to buy more chemicals than I was expecting.

 

[mknauss]

Sorry to hear that. A SWCG would have been a far better value. Makes pool water chemistry 'nearly' maintenance free.

Also realize that the UV system will more readily destroy your FC. I would suggest unplugging it or disabling it. Otherwise you will need to add more chlorine to maintain safe levels of FC.

Take care.

 

[Weemonks19]

Stop going to the pool store as you are just a sale to them and they're often clueless, and stop using Dry Acid.... it is not a great way to get anything done quickly and it leaves behind sulphites you don't want in the water anyway. Use 31% Muriatic Acid (standard precautions apply) found in the paint section or pool section at Lowes.

You MUST get some bleach in there TODAY or it will be green soon. Plain, unsecented, 8.25% bleach. Add a gallon per day until you get your own test kit (one of the recommended ones please) and we'll know how to advise you based on accurate test results.

Start reading PoolSchool above- specifically :
Pool School - Start-up New Plaster
WELCOME to TFP! We can teach you how to ROCK THIS!

Maddie

Hello. I took your advice and purchased some 8.25% bleach last night and added it to my pool as instructed. The Lowes near me did not have muriatic acid in stock so I purchased some at another location this afternoon and will re-check my levels when I get home from work. And so, my levels taken early this morning were:

TA: 50 PPM
PH: >8 PPM
CH: 130 PPM
FC: 2 PPM
TC: 2 PPM
CC: 0 PPM
CYA: 0 PPM

I plugged these numbers into the pool math calculator and have a pretty good idea of what amounts of each chemical need to be added to balance the water. I guess my next (and hopefully last) question is in what order should I be adding them?

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Start with either the bleach or the MA, just space them apart by about 15-30 min. I added some MA to my pool tonight also, I always brush right away the water and surfaces near the return where the MA goes in just on the chance that the acid is heavy and speed up the mixing. Just a few strokes all directions.

Wait an hour after both are in and retest those. Your TA isn't terribly high, so don't be surprised if it lowers a skosh. We can deal with that later. MA has that affect on TA.

Holler back if you have more questions

Maddie