Need advice on fiberglass pool crack repair and plumbing replacement

[ArizonaBlue]

Hi all. First time poster, long time lurker who has learned so much from all you great folks here on TFP. Thank you!

Here's our issue:

Mar 2021. Latham fiberglass pool installed in Tucson, AZ. Terrible installation.

Sep 2022. Leak in a return. PB dug it up and repaired it.

Jan 2023. Pool shell cracked (photos attached, sorry nothing there for scale); crack was 4-5 mm wide, 10 mm long, vertically offset 2-3 mm). PB dug up the entire side where the leak was, put 18 coats of fiberglass on the outside of the leak, backfilled (properly, this time). Sanded down the crack on the inside, supposedly did a fiberglass repair, but I think all he actually did was apply some gel coat to try to make it look good. A few days after he left and the pool was refilled, I swam down to the repair with goggles and saw a hairline crack had reappeared, 1mm or less wide and 8-10 mm long, vertically flush. Pool is not leaking as far as I can tell. Repair was completed in April 2023.

May 2023. We submitted a warranty claim to Latham after confirming PB never did so. With MUCH effort over several months, we got Latham to agree to repair the shell. But given this was a Latham-authorized installer, and given how nearly impossible it has been to get Latham to even talk to us, we don't know if we trust them to do the repair correctly. Also, they would require us to brace and drain the pool (which we'll have to hire out). We're wondering if the risk of making the repair is greater than leaving it alone.

Sep 2023. Found a company in Phoenix with expertise in fiberglass pool repair. They looked at the pool and, even though the crack is no longer visible (???), they thought we should let Latham do the warranty repair since they agreed to do so. This company also noted a second problem: from the installation photos I provided them, they pointed out that ABS glue (black) was used on the PVC pipe for all the plumbing. We expect that won't last much longer (right?). Quoted us $17K to dig it all up and replace all the plumbing. Also quoted $25K to fully re-glass the pool, with a 10 year warranty if we wanted to do that instead of letting Latham repair just the crack.

We are stumped on how to proceed. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you so much!
Jim & Lisa

 

[ajw22]

This company also noted a second problem: from the installation photos I provided them, they pointed out that ABS glue (black) was used on the PVC pipe for all the plumbing.

Can you post some pics showing some joints with the black cement?

We expect that won't last much longer (right?).

ABS glue will give a weak joint. But it could last for a long time without leaking.

Quoted us $17K to dig it all up and replace all the plumbing.

At this point you know the issue is there. I would hold off and save the $17K and wait and see.

If you start getting leaks then you know what to do.

Let's see what @1poolman1 @AQUA~HOLICS think about the ABS glue on PVC?

Also quoted $25K to fully re-glass the pool, with a 10 year warranty if we wanted to do that instead of letting Latham repair just the crack.

Let's see what @Texas Splash thinks about your crack repair.

I think that crack is now cosmetic and if it is not leaking I would save your money there and wait and see.

 

[Bperry]

Hi all. First time poster, long time lurker who has learned so much from all you great folks here on TFP. Thank you!

Here's our issue:

Mar 2021. Latham fiberglass pool installed in Tucson, AZ. Terrible installation.

Sep 2022. Leak in a return. PB dug it up and repaired it.

Jan 2023. Pool shell cracked (photos attached, sorry nothing there for scale); crack was 4-5 mm wide, 10 mm long, vertically offset 2-3 mm). PB dug up the entire side where the leak was, put 18 coats of fiberglass on the outside of the leak, backfilled (properly, this time). Sanded down the crack on the inside, supposedly did a fiberglass repair, but I think all he actually did was apply some gel coat to try to make it look good. A few days after he left and the pool was refilled, I swam down to the repair with goggles and saw a hairline crack had reappeared, 1mm or less wide and 8-10 mm long, vertically flush. Pool is not leaking as far as I can tell. Repair was completed in April 2023.

May 2023. We submitted a warranty claim to Latham after confirming PB never did so. With MUCH effort over several months, we got Latham to agree to repair the shell. But given this was a Latham-authorized installer, and given how nearly impossible it has been to get Latham to even talk to us, we don't know if we trust them to do the repair correctly. Also, they would require us to brace and drain the pool (which we'll have to hire out). We're wondering if the risk of making the repair is greater than leaving it alone.

Sep 2023. Found a company in Phoenix with expertise in fiberglass pool repair. They looked at the pool and, even though the crack is no longer visible (???), they thought we should let Latham do the warranty repair since they agreed to do so. This company also noted a second problem: from the installation photos I provided them, they pointed out that ABS glue (black) was used on the PVC pipe for all the plumbing. We expect that won't last much longer (right?). Quoted us $17K to dig it all up and replace all the plumbing. Also quoted $25K to fully re-glass the pool, with a 10 year warranty if we wanted to do that instead of letting Latham repair just the crack.

We are stumped on how to proceed. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you so much!
Jim & Lisa

View attachment 530261View attachment 530262View attachment 530263

I might let lantham know about ABS glue on PVC joints from this builder and see if they will authorize a second authorized contractor to repair it. Along with slapping the hands of the original installer.

 

[Texas Splash]

Wow, there are bad installs and then there are nightmares. Sorry to see you going through this. For the crack specifically, if ti is leaking, I would work with Latham. The other contractor will always be there later (if needed), but let the warranty process work itself out. I'm a bit surprised to hear they won't include the bracing though. I would think any FG pool repair contractor already knows supporting the shell is priority #1 before draining the majority of water out. Perhaps @MAPR-Austin can confirm as I know he's been involved with some shell support issues in the past.

 

[ArizonaBlue]

Wow, there are bad installs and then there are nightmares. Sorry to see you going through this. For the crack specifically, if ti is leaking, I would work with Latham. The other contractor will always be there later (if needed), but let the warranty process work itself out. I'm a bit surprised to hear they won't include the bracing though. I would think any FG pool repair contractor already knows supporting the shell is priority #1 before draining the majority of water out. Perhaps @MAPR-Austin can confirm as I know he's been involved with some shell support issues in the past.

Thank you @Texas Splash . Yes, we are the nightmare installation! You wouldn't believe what went on during the installation. Latham specifically states in their warranty that pool owner is responsible for draining and bracing (likely assuming the PB will do that work, but our PB will never set foot on our property again). If the crack is leaking, it's miniscule--bucket tests and careful observation of water levels suggest it is not leaking (yet), but measurement error and other variables (evaporation in particular) that are difficult to quantify could be masking a small leak.

 

[ArizonaBlue]

I might let lantham know about ABS glue on PVC joints from this builder and see if they will authorize a second authorized contractor to repair it. Along with slapping the hands of the original installer.

Thank you! Yes, we were going to let Latham know and try to goad them into paying for it, but I like your idea to ask them to "authorize" another contractor--sounds better than simply asking for a check. Of course, Latham's mantra for nearly everything is "that's your PB's fault, you have to work with them." But it's worth a shot!

 

[ArizonaBlue]

Can you post some pics showing some joints with the black cement?



ABS glue will give a weak joint. But it could last for a long time without leaking.



At this point you know the issue is there. I would hold off and save the $17K and wait and see.

If you start getting leaks then you know what to do.

Let's see what @1poolman1 @AQUA~HOLICS think about the ABS glue on PVC?



Let's see what @Texas Splash thinks about your crack repair.

I think that crack is now cosmetic and if it is not leaking I would save your money there and wait and see.

Thanks @ajw22 . Pics attached. We are considering just waiting until we have plumbing leaks. But if it happens in the heat of a Tucson summer, we don't want to not have our pool. Or if it happens when we're out of town escaping the heat of a Tucson summer, it could leak for a month without us knowing it. The repair company is 2+ hours away and would need to schedule a crew to come stay here for a week--so between that and just normal scheduling backlogs, a responsive repair could have us waiting weeks or months to get our pool back. That's why we we might choose to do it proactively. But yeah, lotta $$$$. We're inclined to leave the crack alone, but if we decide to preemptively replace the plumbing, the pool will be drained and braced so hopefully Latham would come then to fix it the crack.

 

[Bperry]

Thanks @ajw22 . Pics attached. We are considering just waiting until we have plumbing leaks. But if it happens in the heat of a Tucson summer, we don't want to not have our pool. Or if it happens when we're out of town escaping the heat of a Tucson summer, it could leak for a month without us knowing it. The repair company is 2+ hours away and would need to schedule a crew to come stay here for a week--so between that and just normal scheduling backlogs, a responsive repair could have us waiting weeks or months to get our pool back. That's why we we might choose to do it proactively. But yeah, lotta $$$$. We're inclined to leave the crack alone, but if we decide to preemptively replace the plumbing, the pool will be drained and braced so hopefully Latham would come then to fix it the crack.

Possible that it’s CPVC cement?

 

[1poolman1]

Can you post some pics showing some joints with the black cement?



ABS glue will give a weak joint. But it could last for a long time without leaking.



At this point you know the issue is there. I would hold off and save the $17K and wait and see.

If you start getting leaks then you know what to do.

Let's see what @1poolman1 @AQUA~HOLICS think about the ABS glue on PVC?



Let's see what @Texas Splash thinks about your crack repair.

I think that crack is now cosmetic and if it is not leaking I would save your money there and wait and see.

If that is ABS glue, the streaks on some of those pipes should be able to be peeled off as the solvent in ABS glue does not dissolve into the PVC as a proper PVC glue does, so it might adhere, but does not provide the actual chemical weld that takes place in a properly glued joint.

Some of that glue may just be gray PVC glue that a lot of people like because it gives a bit more working time with the joint. Pipes glued with gray (actually designed for use with electrical conduit) needs to be given at least overnight to cure before putting it under pressure. That's why I never use it, and have seen it blow apart even after a couple of days in the cold weather when another company used it. I was soaked on a cold December day.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

ABS glue on PVC, I have never seen this practice used before on any job sites.

 

[ArizonaBlue]

If that is ABS glue, the streaks on some of those pipes should be able to be peeled off as the solvent in ABS glue does not dissolve into the PVC as a proper PVC glue does, so it might adhere, but does not provide the actual chemical weld that takes place in a properly glued joint.

Some of that glue may just be gray PVC glue that a lot of people like because it gives a bit more working time with the joint. Pipes glued with gray (actually designed for use with electrical conduit) needs to be given at least overnight to cure before putting it under pressure. That's why I never use it, and have seen it blow apart even after a couple of days in the cold weather when another company used it. I was soaked on a cold December day.

Well this is encouraging! Didn't realize there was gray PVC glue (but one thing I've done little of over the years is work with PVC so I'm pretty ignorant there). There are some above ground joints with gray glue also, I'll see if I can peel it off. Thanks @1poolman1 !

 

[ArizonaBlue]

ABS glue on PVC, I have never seen this practice used before on any job sites.

@AQUA~HOLICS If you saw the two kids that did 99% of the work after pool set, you would not be surprised by anything that happened on this job site. Sure wish we had a do-over button for this project, especially now that we have the great TFP community to guide us. Thanks!

 

[ArizonaBlue]

Possible that it’s CPVC cement?

Hmmm. No clue personally but I'll grasp at any straw here! But I will say, we're also concerned about backfill supporting the plumbing, the hangers (they just used bailing wire, all of which was broken in the area of the pool dug up for this repair), and even the connection to the shell. These "installers" really had no clue what they were doing (hindsight is 20-20, we should have put a stop work order on this early on...). Thanks!

 

[Texas Splash]

we're also concerned about backfill supporting the plumbing, the hangers (they just used bailing wire, all of which was broken

Not to hijack your thread here, but you're not alone. My installers used old Walmart plastic bags to suspend our plumbing. Years later, my return (branch) line that supports four return jets dropped, pulling down on the fittings resulting in one cracked jet. I am in the process of digging it up to install new jets and properly support that entire line. I was naïve and didn't know any better with this being our first pool.

 

[Texas Splash]

AB, I have a CA friend in this industry who has recommended to other homeowners in situations like yours to contact the local Contractors Board. In his experience, they are the advocates for the consumer and are in a position to solicit the help of a third-party who can evaluate the contract and work performed. If you don't receive the quality work and attention you deserve (and paid for), that might be a route to consider. Of course there is always litigation, but then it's gloves off at that point.

 

[ArizonaBlue]

AB, I have a CA friend in this industry who has recommended to other homeowners in situations like yours to contact the local Contractors Board. In his experience, they are the advocates for the consumer and are in a position to solicit the help of a third-party who can evaluate the contract and work performed. If you don't receive the quality work and attention you deserve (and paid for), that might be a route to consider. Of course there is always litigation, but then it's gloves off at that point.

Thanks TS. Yes, we have the Arizona Registrar of Contractors and we are seriously considering filing a complaint with them. Our current understanding is that the contractor is expected to come fix the problem correctly, and we won't let him muck it up yet again. But we are looking into this more closely. Even if we file a complaint that goes on his record, but don't force him to work on the pool again, that might be enough to prevent someone else from making the same mistake we made in hiring him! And litigation is definitely on the table. We spoke with a lawyer near the start of this repair debacle and we plan to speak with him again soon. Thank you again for all your helpful comments.

 

[ArizonaBlue]

Not to hijack your thread here, but you're not alone. My installers used old Walmart plastic bags to suspend our plumbing. Years later, my return (branch) line that supports four return jets dropped, pulling down on the fittings resulting in one cracked jet. I am in the process of digging it up to install new jets and properly support that entire line. I was naïve and didn't know any better with this being our first pool.

Yikes!! So sorry you're going through this, but it does make us feel "better" (probably not the right word or emotion) that we're not alone in this. Yeah, our first pool also and I was very naive. Stupid thing is, I'm the guy that spends 3 months researching ceiling fans or coffee makers before buying one, yet I didn't do nearly enough research on something costing orders of magnitude more money (and frustration). Live and learn....

 

[MAPR-Austin]

I would try to repair that crack with something that will work underwater. I bet draining and refilling the pool is causes it to flex a little in that spot, which is why it re-cracked after the first repair.

If you have to dig up for plumbing (seems unlikely), I would plug the fittings from the pool side and leave the pool full of water.

In my limited experience, all efforts should be made to keep FG pools full. Bracing helps keep them from collapsing but can't compensate for the thousands of gallons of water and the effect that has on the shell.,

 

[ArizonaBlue]

I would try to repair that crack with something that will work underwater. I bet draining and refilling the pool is causes it to flex a little in that spot, which is why it re-cracked after the first repair.

If you have to dig up for plumbing (seems unlikely), I would plug the fittings from the pool side and leave the pool full of water.

In my limited experience, all efforts should be made to keep FG pools full. Bracing helps keep them from collapsing but can't compensate for the thousands of gallons of water and the effect that has on the shell.,

@MAPR-Austin Thank you! I was indeed thinking of using an underwater repair product, though right now, I can't even see a crack to repair. Either the pool has flexed a tiny bit, and/or it filled in with sand (lots of that blowing around here in Tucson). We too were very concerned about draining (even with bracing) the pool to fix something that ain't meaningfully broken (not leaking, not even visible at this point). Appreciate your input, thank you!