Keeping Spa Open Over Winter

[Royaloaker]

This will be our first winter with pool and separate (no spillover) spa. Both pool and spa share pump/equipment (SWG & gas heater). Our contractor initially said it was no issue to close pool but keep spa open in the winter, but we had a nightmare of a time with him, so now we are hoping he didn’t give us bad info. Wanted to see who else has had this setup in cold climates (we are in Michigan) and how it’s been. Figured we’d keep in spa mode (ofc) after closing pool, keep spa temp at 80 and rev it up to 100 prior to use. Saw some other prior threads but they were old, so mods said to start new thread. TIA!

 

[PoolStored]

This can be done but I dont recommend it. First a concrete spa has poor insulation. They don't work anywhere close to what a standalone spa does for hydrotherapy, again not even close.

2nd the cost of gas heater is going to be hundreds each month.

3rd, if we all learned something from the great freeze of 2021 is pools and spa in freezing temps do not work.. You have no way to ensure you can keep power to the spa in freezing temps. In water temps colder than 68 degrees you can not (are not supposed to or you will damage heater) run the gas heater, so there will be no way to heat the spa in water temps colder than 68 degrees...

From your manual:


From Pentair manual, but applies to all gas heaters:


4th, you have to be very careful to not accidentally allow water past a valve to the pool and freeze damage pipes. IIRC, your pool and spa are on the same pump...then this is an issue.

5th, you would need a generator for power failure, and is great, but what happens if pump goes bad or heater dies a year or a few down the road in middle of winter?

For probably less money a luxury hot tub can be placed that will cost you less than 50 a month in dead if winter, 10 max I summer, and is ready to go at 100+ degrees 24/7. And if it dies you have days before water freezes, even then a small heater in equipment bay can buy you lots of time.

 

[Royaloaker]

This can be done but I dont recommend it. First a concrete spa has poor insulation. They don't work anywhere close to what a standalone spa does for hydrotherapy, again not even close.

2nd the cost of gas heater is going to be hundreds each month.

3rd, if we all learned something from the great freeze of 2021 is pools and spa in freezing temps do not work.. You have no way to ensure you can keep power to the spa in freezing temps. In water temps colder than 68 degrees you can not (are not supposed to or you will damage heater) run the gas heater, so there will be no way to heat the spa in water temps colder than 68 degrees...

From your manual:
View attachment 613640

From Pentair manual, but applies to all gas heaters:
View attachment 613641

4th, you have to be very careful to not accidentally allow water past a valve to the pool and freeze damage pipes. IIRC, your pool and spa are on the same pump...then this is an issue.

5th, you would need a generator for power failure, and is great, but what happens if pump goes bad or heater dies a year or a few down the road in middle of winter?

For probably less money a luxury hot tub can be placed that will cost you less than 50 a month in dead if winter, 10 max I summer, and is ready to go at 100+ degrees 24/7. And if it dies you have days before water freezes, even then a small heater in equipment bay can buy you lots of time.

Hiiii. I don't know why I didn't get notification of your response. :/ Just happened to check to see if anyone replied, and I see a message from my good ol' buddy PS

Welp, we just spent an extra $30k on the in ground hot tub and got rid of our freestanding, so going back to that is impossible. I just find it hard to believe that nobody keeps their in ground spa open in the winter??? Not that I doubt your expertise, but why would any pool company install then? No room for generator. We had zero probs with our above ground spa.

 

[PoolStored]

It is fairly common in warmer climates. Much less common in areas that regularly freeze.

Welcome back!

 

[Royaloaker]

It is fairly common in warmer climates. Much less common in areas that regularly freeze.

Welcome back!

You said concrete but it’s fiberglass…can’t imagine that makes much difference?

 

[PoolStored]

can’t imagine that makes much difference?

If it is fiberglass...was there insulation? That might help with gas costs, but everything else WRT freezing doesn't make any difference...

 

[PoolStored]

Oh, the long sordid history...

After the Polar Vortex of 2019...

January–February 2019 North American cold wave - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We had lots of traffic between 1/10/2019 and 2/20/2019...

Search results for query: freeze

www.troublefreepool.com

As a result, we created the wiki article on how to handle a freeze...which may help you in addition to my guidance above...

Preparing Pool for Cooler Months - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Guide created in 2019...


Fast forward to 2021, lots of people during the great Texas Freeze of 2021...

The Great Texas Freeze: February 11-20, 2021

On February 11-20, 2021, a historical winter event occurred across the state of Texas that set many records, including being the first billion-dollar weather disaster of that year.

www.ncei.noaa.gov

...ended up here with frozen pools/spas because they didn't close them (typical for Texas) and were not prepared for the freeze. 4 pages of search results, 2/1/2021 to 2/29/2021 on TFP, searching only the word froze:

Search results for query: froze

www.troublefreepool.com

And this was in TEXAS, not Meeeechigan. Many of us learned a lot...and we haven't forgotten.

Keep it open at your peril...have your contingencies and be prepared. Or close as recommended....

 

[TopJimmy]

I keep my spa open all year round. We used it all last winter several times per week. I keep it at 70 deg and if I feel I’ll use it, then a couple hrs prior set it to 97 deg or whatever.
I have a 2-body system with no shared equipment, so different from yours. If you have intellivalves, winterize your pool. Then manually switch the intellivalve to spa mode, then switch to spa mode in software, then leave your intellivalve in service mode so you don’t accidentally switch to pool mode.
The risk is a power outage, so I got a Kohler standby gen 100 amps. No problems anticipated. In addition I’ll keep my pool “open” over winter too, heated to 70 deg.

 

[PoolStored]

Low temperatures in Louisville and Detroit, and associated risks and costs are very different in the winter. You have 4 months of lows below freezing in Detroit.

 

[Royaloaker]

Again, no idea why I'm not getting alerts!!! :/

I'm beyond ****** off at my pool contractor. We don't have room for a generator, and because we had an above ground hot tub we have left open for the last 5 years (that we got rid of for aesthetics and to do the in ground), we figured there'd be no issue. I originally received quotes from two pool companies, both said there's no issue with keeping the pool open during the winter, so it wasn't JUST our idiot who messed up our filter install.

Clearly, I know we should close them both, but I'm just ****** AS heck. If I knew we couldn't use it, we wouldn't have spent an extra f'ing $30k to put it in ground.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I wish we would have never, ever done this pool. It's nice and all, but knowing now what I know, I wish I could go back in time and save myself a ton of money, time, and stress.

 

[Royaloaker]

Low temperatures in Louisville and Detroit, and associated risks and costs are very different in the winter. You have 4 months of lows below freezing in Detroit.

View attachment 615859

Do you think we could open both back up mid-late March? I don't even care about how much it will cost to heat.

 

[PoolStored]

Have you talked to the builder, [that told you there were no issues], and ask them what assumptions they made about keeping it open, and the risks of freezing without backup? Any answer from them? Maybe references from others that they have built for in the area, that keep their spas open, that you could talk to about the costs and the risks...?

I think the discussion points are:
1) cost to heat (you are in ground, that helps vs. raised spa
2) ensuring that no water will get to the pool side of the setup
3) the need for a generator if power fails.

I'm sorry you are in this position.

Do you think we could open both back up mid-late March? I don't even care about how much it will cost to heat.

Absolutely. But once you start the heater, keep the spa water above 68. Don't heat, then allow it to get cold again, then reheat. Heat to 68, then heat to hot to sit in, then keep at at least 68.

 

[Royaloaker]

Thank you. I can't even talk to the man bc he enrages me, but I'll ask my husband to ask him about this. We are stuck with having him close the pool because another company who came to do it were perplexed by the set-up, so they don't even want to mess with it. :/ Our original contractor said he'd come out next week to do and then said to my husband, "I don't know why you didn't ask us in the first place" (he still doesn't know we had to get another company to fix the filter situation-- I was waiting to be done with him and we were going to take him to small claims court). Maybe now is the time to tell him since we are going to be stuck with him and his weirdo pool set up.