In-Floor Cleaning Systems, Venturi Skimmers and LeafVac Containment

[MyAZPool]

Lately, I seem to have noticed more and more OP's posting lists from their PBs containing In-Floor cleaning systems, Venturi type skimmers and these LeafVac Containment systems all bundled together as an entire cleaning system such as the A&A automatic self-cleaning and circulation systems and the like.
Seems the PBs are really pushing these bundled systems especially in the Texas and Southeastern areas.

It would be interesting to hear from not only the OP's who have been using these bundled systems to get their take but also from our TFP Experts and Guides as well as the Hydraulics Guru's to get their experienced opinions on these systems as well. The good and the bad.

I am just really curious to see what everyone's perspectives and takeaways are regarding these bundled packages that are being pushed by the PB's.

Thanks in advance for your input.
r.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Discussions of IFC's almost always devolve into two camps - those that LOVE them and those that HATE them. As is the case of our modern-day politics, there is no middle ground.

Personally, with the advent of robotic cleaners like the Dolphins, I think IFCs are a huge waste of money and only add to the plumbing complexity of a pool as well as the potential for leaks to develop. Given how many pool service companies and pool owners will add chemicals directly into their skimmer, plaster damage around the pop-up heads is almost always assured. The IFC's have gotten better but they were really designed for a different age when one only had a single-speed pump at the pad. With modern VSPs, you can easily make an IFC system completely useless by not programming in enough flow from the pump.

Obviously companies like A&A and Paramount want to do whatever they can to capture business so it's not surprising at all the PB's push their bundled products. Paramount even got into the Ozone and UV business as a way of "enhancing" their IFC sales by making the claim that injecting ozone through the in-floor system was a much more efficient method of sanitizing the water...an unsubstantiated claim at best....

 

[MyAZPool]

Thank you Matt. Your perspective is very logical and appreciated.
What is your take on these Venturi type skimmers and these "LeafVac type containment systems? To me anyway, they seem very "gimmicky", not very user friendly for the OP and seem to inject more complexity and problems into pool maintenance then solve what they are were intended to solve.
Thoughts?
Thanks...
r...
p.s. Yes Paramount. That was the other company I was trying to think of. Thanks!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Is that the "Skim-Doctor" product?? Yeah, they make the claim that because a vortex is created inside the skimmer that the rotational water flow somehow enhances the draw rate of stuff into the skimmer....I've never seen any independent study of that or even a theoretical explanation as to why that might be so....

There's also those "Dyson" type Venturi "pre-filters" that you're supposed to plumb before your actual filter to help separate out large debris and sand before the water gets into your filter. Again, I fail to see the point. You can also just put a hairnet ($0.06 a piece) over your skimmer basket and capture all of the large gunk before it ever makes it into the plumbing...to me, that's a lot simpler....

 

[MyAZPool]

Matt,
Exactly.
A&A has a "LeafVac Debris Removal Canister", Paramount has their "Debris Containment Canister" and there is also a Quik LeafVac Debris Removal System. These canisters are mostly buried in the ground and plumbed in between the main drain and/or skimmers and before the pump. I have just been doing some research on all these items (IFCS, Venturi Skimmers and LeafVac type canisters) because I have no actual experience with these items and I have noticed more OPs listing them in PB proposals and also because I know of at least one TFP member that has all three of these items and has had lots of hydraulics and pump issues.

I am especially skeptical regarding the principles of the Venturi Skimmers and these debris removal canisters. I can only imagine the "problems" that can be introduced into the plumbing and maintenance arena's.

It would be great to hear from some OPs who have these systems and get their take as well.
r.

 

[Jimrahbe]

r,

I agree with Matt, even when I think he is wrong, because over time, I have learned he is almost always right..

I am in the non-IFCS camp, mainly because of all the additional plumbing that is required. Later in life someone is going to have to troubleshoot a problem and the simpler things are the less that can go wrong, and the easier it is to fix.

If I "had" to have an IFCS, I would want to have it as a separate system, that could be turned on and off.. I would want the main system to have standard wall returns so I could run either system...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I agree with Matt, even when I think he is wrong, because over time, I have learned he is almost always right..

I read that line to my wife and the explosive fountain of soda out of her nose was quite amusing ... it’s been several minutes now and I think her rolling-on-the-floor laughter is starting to subside ...

I would say it’s quite sad to see pools around here that were built WITH ONLY IFCs as returns. There was a time not so long ago when IFCs were so popular that people would cut costs by simply going with an IFC only pool....which is all great of course until the leaks start and then it’s a money pit to try to fix....

I think @Arizonarob has some experience with abandoned IFC returns.

 

[Arizonarob]

Lately, I seem to have noticed more and more OP's posting lists from their PBs containing In-Floor cleaning systems, Venturi type skimmers and these LeafVac Containment systems all bundled together as an entire cleaning system such as the A&A automatic self-cleaning and circulation systems and the like.
Seems the PBs are really pushing these bundled systems especially in the Texas and Southeastern areas.

IFCS are a perfect way for a pool builder to capitalize on the laziness of a pool buyer to move up one size in his/her Bass boat.

“Sir/madam, the pool cleans itself!”

Personally, with the advent of robotic cleaners like the Dolphins, I think IFCs are a huge waste of money and only add to the plumbing complexity of a pool as well as the potential for leaks to develop. Given how many pool service companies and pool owners will add chemicals directly into their skimmer, plaster damage around the pop-up heads is almost always assured. The IFC's have gotten better but they were really designed for a different age when one only had a single-speed pump at the pad. With modern VSPs, you can easily make an IFC system completely useless by not programming in enough flow from the pump.

You forgot to add the “Mic drop” on your way out.

Yeah, they make the claim that because a vortex is created inside the skimmer that the rotational water flow somehow enhances the draw rate of stuff into the skimmer....I've never seen any independent study of that or even a theoretical explanation as to why that might be so....

Right! AND, let’s not forget about the “vortex” that happens in a toilet bowl that’s all so drawing that someone invented the plunger!

I agree with Matt, even when I think he is wrong, because over time, I have learned he is almost always right..

Who are you and what have you done with Jim?

I read that line to my wife and the explosive fountain of soda out of her nose was quite amusing ... it’s been several minutes now and I think her rolling-on-the-floor laughter is starting to subside ...

.... which will be followed up by random verbal outbursts of “thinks he right” with continued chuckles in the coming weeks.

which is all great of course until the leaks start and then it’s a money pit to try to fix....

And a money pit it is!!!

Here are some photos of my Friends pool that had to have the IFCS abandoned. (I spent weeks managing this project from finding the leak, to filling it back up after the repair. This was AFTER her pool company dragged it out for 2 weeks and was unable to find it.)

The condition of her pool when I arrived...


I knew right away once I arrived where the leak was, bottom step in the IFCS pop-up.

BUT, I had to fill er back up, so the leak detection company could confirm.....



After it was filled back up, I made her call her pool company up and have them do “their thing” to clean the mess up so the leak could be confirmed. (man did that water stink!!)

Me draining the pool the night before, because the repair company was coming in the morning. (Keep in mind, this repair took place in July of AZ heat! Talk about a nail biter with the plaster exposed to sun and heat!)



Repair in progress. (They also found small leaks at the skimmer throat and light niche.)




Pool filled back up, and the maiden voyage of the S300 she had to purchase to replace the now abandoned IFCS.




Now I ask you ladies-n-gentleman of the jury, is that IFCS really worth it? I think not!!!

 

[Arizonarob]

Oh, and I forgot to mention the costs involved.
So to have the IFCS repaired would have ment to jackhammer the stairs and repair the leaking plumbing, then replace the steps, (And we all know the plaster would match ) to the tune of over 3k! (And there was no guarantee that a new leak wouldn’t happen in another zone) So the abandonment was done for $850 + $250 for the leak detection.

And don’t even get me started on her main drain springing a leak not but 6 months later. Had to go through the whole drain, leak detection, repair, and refill process all over again!!

 

[bdavis466]

I think you guys have the venturi skimmer confused with the skim doctor basket.

The venturi skimmers are actually supposed to work really well especially with the VSPs running at low speeds.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I think you guys have the venturi skimmer confused with the skim doctor basket.

The venturi skimmers are actually supposed to work really well especially with the VSPs running at low speeds.

Says former custom pool boy that liked to install them ....

I'd like to see some data on that .... we can all stand around yours, with beers in hand, and drop peanuts in it from your outdoor bar....whoever gets their peanut in the pump basket first, wins!!

 

[bdavis466]

Says former custom pool boy that liked to install them ....

I'd like to see some data on that .... we can all stand around yours, with beers in hand, and drop peanuts in it from your outdoor bar....whoever gets their peanut in the pump basket first, wins!!

I actually never installed one...I wanted to but always forgot when the time came. There were actually a lot of things I wanted to try on other people's pools but that ship has long since sailed

 

[bdavis466]

I don't understand what stops the debris sucked into the skimmer from getting shot out the venturi return

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I don't understand what stops the debris sucked into the skimmer from getting shot out the venturi return

I guess that’s why you need the five mesh bag. Anything that passes through the skimmer basket can get sucked into the Venturi.

So what is connected to the skimmer? A suction line to the pump AND a return line to drive the Venturi? There are two standard ports on the bottom one for a series connection to the main drain and one for the suction side plumbing??

Do you have an installation guide?

 

[bdavis466]

I

I guess that’s why you need the five mesh bag. Anything that passes through the skimmer basket can get sucked into the Venturi.

So what is connected to the skimmer? A suction line to the pump AND a return line to drive the Venturi? There are two standard ports on the bottom one for a series connection to the main drain and one for the suction side plumbing??

Do you have an installation guide?

I believe there are 3 ports on the bottom. I haven't seen the one in the video before, but the other ones that I have seen had a return port on the back side of the skimmer and the Venturi blew straight through the suction port on the bottom.

The guys that I've talked to that have used them swear by them... my skimmer is just about worthless at low speeds

 

[Jimrahbe]

I only have my personal experience with skimmers to go on, but I think the venturi skimmer is just a solution looking for a problem.

All three of my pools run at about 1200 RPM.. none of them have heaters so that probably is about 1400 or 1500 with a heater. My pool has two skimmers and four returns.. The other two pools only have one skimmer and 2 returns on one and 3 on the other.

All three pools skim just fine for me... Whatever falls into the pools, ends up in the skimmer basket and not much if anything is left on the surface of the pool. I pretty much have very little visible pump action at the skimmers, yet the baskets still fill right up, with no issues.

So, while a venturi skimmer may be better, I say better than what? It can't pick up more stuff, so about the only thing it might do, is to do the job quicker.

Just more stuff to go wrong...

Did anyone notice that in their video of the regular skimmer, they had the water up to almost the coping making the weir almost useless... Nice try, but no cigar... ?

Jim R.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I only have my personal experience with skimmers to go on, but I think the venturi skimmer is just a solution looking for a problem.

All three of my pools run at about 1200 RPM.. none of them have heaters so that probably is about 1400 or 1500 with a heater. My pool has two skimmers and four returns.. The other two pools only have one skimmer and 2 returns on one and 3 on the other.

All three pools skim just fine for me... Whatever falls into the pools, ends up in the skimmer basket and not much if anything is left on the surface of the pool. I pretty much have very little visible pump action at the skimmers, yet the baskets still fill right up, with no issues.

So, while a venturi skimmer may be better, I say better than what? It can't pick up more stuff, so about the only thing it might do, is to do the job quicker.

Just more stuff to go wrong...

Did anyone notice that in their video of the regular skimmer, they had the water up to almost the coping making the weir almost useless... Nice try, but no cigar... ?

Jim R.

Yeah, I noticed that too.

I suppose if I had a jackhammer and enough beers, I’d be tempted to replace my current skimmer. My pool only has one and it’s at the wrong end from the perspective of prevailing winds. Crud on the surface tends to get pushed by the wind towards my deep end...skimmer is at the shallow end ?‍

But, more importantly, I need a new umbrella ... the wind blew my very expensive teak wood sunbrella over and it snapped in a half ? time to start pricing out some good cantilever models.

 

[KDpoolguy]

Paramount even got into the Ozone and UV business as a way of "enhancing" their IFC sales by making the claim that injecting ozone through the in-floor system was a much more efficient method of sanitizing the water...an unsubstantiated claim at best....

I’ve come in contact with an old friend whose had a PB ‘require’ ozone desanitation for their bid. I’ve never heard of it.
I’m almost glad I sold my home with IFCS because I came to really love it, but never would have recommended it to a new builder. I’m just happy I had TFP to help me rebuild it, and the new owners were thrilled with it. It did “clean itself” and was ideal for a no-leaf, high-sand scenario.

 

[MyAZPool]

JoyfulNoise, Jimrahbe, Arizonarob, bdavis466, KDpoolguy
Thank you all very much for some very insightful information and experiences! OUTSTANDING information and photos! Great job sharing!!

I'm hoping to keep this thread alive for a bit, to continue to obtain further input from not only current users of In-floor Cleaning Systems, Venturi Skimmers and those "Containment Systems" mentioned above but also from further pool building experts and hydraulics guru's. Especially one's who have experience (good or bad) with having all three of these systems tied into one bundled cleaning system such as A&A and Paramount propose.

I'm thinking that the information contained within this thread (good or bad), may help others down the road, who's PB's are proposing such systems to them and just help those OPs make "INFORMED" decisions before "checks are signed".
Thanks again!!!
r.

 

[Arizonarob]

Well then, let me wrangle up a couple of folks that I know who like their IFCS.
@proavia @jonpcar
(I think Jon might be on vaca, and Gene might be too. But they’ll chime in when they get a chance.)