I can’t do Leslie’s water testing anymore

[LDswims]

Howdy from SE Texas. I’m new to the forum, found it the other night when trying to learn about this wonky thing they call “chlorine lock”. I’ve had my pool nearly 10 years (completed three days after hurricane Ike hit, sept ‘08). My husband and/or I have always done the maintenance. We generally have a gorgeous pool 99.9% of the time. So I’ve never invested in a water testing kit, instead, we’ve taken samples to Leslie’s when we want a real picture. HA!!!

That has generally worked. We don’t buy chems from Leslie’s. Periodically parts, but even rare for that. We our Amazon Prime. ?

So here we are today. Spring startup. We’ve been swimming since February. Not sure we can call that spring but it’s SE Texas. We did get a TON of rain from Hurricane Harvey last summer (51” in 3 days recorded 0.5 miles from my house). But other than rain, and constant overflow as our drains could not keep up with the amount of water being added, we did not flood. Nothing seemed to go out of whack. About a month ago, for spring startup, we took a sample in for testing. The day before, my boys swam and had major red eye. That NEVER happens for us. Never smell it, never red eye, never blah blah blah. I tell “Marsha” this just as she’s completing the test. And she says “ah-ha, you’re in chlorine lock”. Whothewhatsit? I’ve had this pool for almost 10 years and I’ve never heard of such a thing. I was a chemist for years and never heard of such a thing. So....uh...come again? She says “I can sell you some product but it’s cheaper to drain and refill with fresh water”. She then went on to explain this mythical creature called chrlorine lock. My CYA was “over 99”, the upper limit of their test.

I go home. I drain 1/3. We have a big pool. That hurts. Fill it back up, let it settle for a week, take another sample in. Still “over 99”.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

We've done this 5 times now. As of Monday, they’re now telling us they can run a dilution and pinpoint higher numbers, so my theoretical pinpointed by dilution number for CYA was 130.

I've done research at this point. Surely I’m close. Go home. Wash, rinse, repeat. Tuesday, sample back in. Mind you, I’ve emptied and refilled 1/3 of my 42,000 gallon pool now 6 times. My CYA Tuesday was 180. After being 130 on Monday, emptied by a third, and refilled with fresh, unstabilized water.

Unless my city, in SE Texas, still reeling from hurricane Harvey, is now suddenly stabilizing water. ???

I no longer trust or have confidence in Leslie’s water testing. My water bill is the most expensive it has ever been. Including after the first fill. And the second fill after replastering 2 years ago.

Prior to this, our only “problem” was black mold in our sandstone on our beach entry. We live on a lake, aka a glorified retention pond with pretty lighted fountains. A “lake” filled with untreated, mucky, algae-filled water. Our black mold comes from that. A little bit of shock straight to the beach once a week keeps that from being a problem these days.

And now this CYA problem. Which I now believe is not really the problem I’m being told it is by Leslie’s. But here’s where my questions are starting to come in. I have spent the past couple evenings perusing this website and learning. So...what do I do with my 2 bottles of phos-free that I never needed (and I can vouch for that, as I never used them). What about the hardness issue I now have since so much of my water was dumped down the drain? Anyway to get that back without investing in hardness? I’m also afraid my pH is shot as while my pool is clean, clear, and algae free, I am seeing scaling on our rock water wall. A TF test kit is being ordered and when “I” can do the tests, I’ll post my numbers.

I'm so flipping frustrated that we dumped so much water. Especially after going back in Tuesday and seeing their stabilizer reducer on sale for $40 a bag. A VERY small bag. But we’ve spent $200 on draining and refilling. So a $40 bag wasn’t so expensive after all. What a fool I’ve been. ?

 

[jblizzle]

Welcome to TFP!

This exact story could come from so many of the members we get here

Did you search the forum for threads about that cya reducer? Because in all the experiments that were done by members I don't think anyone actually reliably found their cya dropped.

Replacing water is the best solution to lower the cya and or calcium. Of course more ideally is to never allow them to get that high in the first place

You are certainly in good hands now!

 

[aussieta]

welcome to tfp
sorry you have been poolstored
take the phosfree back and ask if they will exchange it for liquid chlorine or calcium hardness increaser
the cya reducer very rarely works, from feedback on this site appears less than 1 percent have been successfull (maybe that 1 percent didnt want to admit they were duped as well)
scaling is caused by TA, PH and calcium being too high not too low

 

[PoolGate]

CYA builds up over time when you use the chlorine "pucks". Eventually your CYA is so high that your chlorine becomes ineffective. The only real solution is to drain the pool and start over. As you know, dilution is the solution to pollution. 1/3 at a time was not a good strategy. If possible and with the advice of pros, you should have gone perhaps even 100% water change all at once, which can be dangerous with an inground pool. But for sure at least 50% at a time. The strong advice of this forum will be to convert to a saltwater pool and start generating your own chlorine. The other method is to use straight bleach from the grocery store (and nothing but). The only chemical I add to my pool is typically muriatic acid to control pH. I added enough CYA in the beginning to get to the proper level.

First thing is to get a proper test kit from the links above in the title of this forum. Take a full set of tests and post the results here. You can get back to crystal clear water probably better than you've ever seen before.

Keep in mind you probably have been swimming in dirty water for at least a season or 2 since you can no longer maintain sanitized water with your high cya level. The pool store has been selling you chemicals that mask the filth and give you a false sense of security.

 

[LDswims]

The part of this that truly boggles my mind, though, is this pool is nearly 10 years old. We have not changed a thing. We’ve always used pucks, have always had crystal clear, beautiful water, and have NEVER had a problem with CYA, based on Leslie’s testing. The only thing that is different this year vs everything in the past, was being hit with a TON of rain (annual rainfall in 3 days time) from hurricane Harvey. Nothing else has changed. All the same chemicals (we keep pucks in a floater and shock once a week, that is all). We don’t use that phos-free I was recommended over 2 years ago (so I’m afraid I’m stuck with it, and we didn’t buy it from Leslie’s as they’re just too expensive). We don’t use clarifier. We learned the very hard way to not use copper based algaecides as 1) they don’t work, and 2) we wound up with a bad stain in our deep end and ultimately had to replaster to fix it. In the whole time we’ve had the pool, we’ve had to adjust hardness twice, after filling. We’ve had to adjust pH twice, after filling. (Obviously not in this order.). We’ve had to adjust alkalinity at spring startup once and twice, after filling. Basically, we’ve had to adjust nothing. It’s simply chlorine and shock.

I always figured we were quite quite fortunate to have no trees in our backyard. So nothing introduces debris. I always figured that’s how we’ve gotten away with such minimal maintenance. Our skimmers are rarely full and our vacuum picks up anything that does get to the bottom very quickly. Our yard crew skims our pool for us, after mowing (spoiled much?). So...we really have done nothing for this pool other than chlorine (even in that evil puck form) and shock. I can’t say we got their immediately on our own, to only use our pucks and shock. In the early days was when we used that copper based algaecide. But then Warehouse Pool Supply sold out to Leslie’s and we literally could not get that copper based algaecide anymore. We then had to figure out something else and it turned out, keeping up with chlorine and shock was all we had to do. ��

But being here where we are now...my mind is absolutely boggled. None of it makes any sense. And it’s not even a new batch of pucks possibly made differently. We bought our current buckets o’chemicals in the spring of 2017. We stocked up for a rainy day.

So, literally, nothing has changed. Except Harvey. Maybe pH was wrong back in Sept and because of that, we’ll, everything was wrong? But then...why do I still have crystal clear beautiful water? Right now, as I took the photos shown below, the only thing we have is rocks in our leaf catcher for our zodiac cleaner. And a little sand in our hot tub that I need to scrub out.

The test is being ordered today and I cannot wait to see what I get for results. Just doesn’t make any sense, at this point.

 

[Rollercoastr]

Welcome LD! While reading your first post, I found myself thinking, "she's going to become a contributing member of TFP".

Well done on the TF-100. You certainly won't regret that. I highly recommend adding a Speed-Stir while you're at it. It's not a necessary component, but it really makes it easier - even fun.

I joked when the batteries in my Speed-Stir died that I was tempted to just let the pool go green!

 

[splashpad]

The part of this that truly boggles my mind, though, is this pool is nearly 10 years old. We have not changed a thing. We’ve always used pucks, have always had crystal clear, beautiful water, and have NEVER had a problem with CYA, based on Leslie’s testing. The only thing that is different this year vs everything in the past, was being hit with a TON of rain (annual rainfall in 3 days time) from hurricane Harvey. Nothing else has changed. All the same chemicals (we keep pucks in a floater and shock once a week, that is all). We don’t use that phos-free I was recommended over 2 years ago (so I’m afraid I’m stuck with it, and we didn’t buy it from Leslie’s as they’re just too expensive). We don’t use clarifier. We learned the very hard way to not use copper based algaecides as 1) they don’t work, and 2) we wound up with a bad stain in our deep end and ultimately had to replaster to fix it. In the whole time we’ve had the pool, we’ve had to adjust hardness twice, after filling. We’ve had to adjust pH twice, after filling. (Obviously not in this order.). We’ve had to adjust alkalinity at spring startup once and twice, after filling. Basically, we’ve had to adjust nothing. It’s simply chlorine and shock.

I would venture to guess (not an expert) that: being in TX w/no trees, you were able to get away with higher CYA levels (and if it was cal-hypo shock, it wasn't adding additional CYA)

I always figured we were quite quite fortunate to have no trees in our backyard. So nothing introduces debris. I always figured that’s how we’ve gotten away with such minimal maintenance. Our skimmers are rarely full and our vacuum picks up anything that does get to the bottom very quickly. Our yard crew skims our pool for us, after mowing (spoiled much?). So...we really have done nothing for this pool other than chlorine (even in that evil puck form) and shock. I can’t say we got their immediately on our own, to only use our pucks and shock. In the early days was when we used that copper based algaecide. But then Warehouse Pool Supply sold out to Leslie’s and we literally could not get that copper based algaecide anymore. We then had to figure out something else and it turned out, keeping up with chlorine and shock was all we had to do. ��

This is part of it

But being here where we are now...my mind is absolutely boggled. None of it makes any sense. And it’s not even a new batch of pucks possibly made differently. We bought our current buckets o’chemicals in the spring of 2017. We stocked up for a rainy day.

The test is being ordered today and I cannot wait to see what I get for results. Just doesn’t make any sense, at this point.
{pic} {Pic} {Pic}

I'll be curious to see your personal test results!

 

[Pool_Medic]

Many thousands of pools operate effectively on pucks....until something changes, air quality, different pucks with more stabilizer, maybe a different pattern, it can be anything. I suspect your ph is what caused the eye irritation.

Its how you chose to chlorinate your pool that can affect its effective strength.

kudos to that store for at least knowing there is a relationship between cya and it’s affects.

 

[Rollercoastr]

The part of this that truly boggles my mind, though, is this pool is nearly 10 years old. We have not changed a thing. We’ve always used pucks, have always had crystal clear, beautiful water, and have NEVER had a problem with CYA, based on Leslie’s testing.

There's no claim that pool store methods can't keep a pool clear. MOST pools follow traditional pool store / pool industry methods and yet satisfy the caretakers/swimmers.

It's the unseen issues that TFP addresses. Staining, wasted money, harshness, under-chlorination, over stabilization and as you've noticed, basic ignorance of chemical principles combined with sloppy testing.

Your water very well could have been "ok" all along. It will be much better in the future.

- - - Updated - - -

LD, did you laugh when you realized that your first post, at 12:37 a.m. received a reply from an expert 11 minutes later? This site is crazy!

 

[funandsun]

Wonderful observations from a very long time pool owner. I know it can be quite a "shock" no pun intended but lets look at this "scientifically" for a moment.

Proven countless times throughout TFP that Pool Store CYA testing is questionable at best as you just experienced with your CYA increasing after a partial drain and refill.

Let's assume that there testing is 100% accurate. Do you have all of your test records/print outs from Leslie's from the last couple of years? At least you could look back and compare those readings to known Trouble Free Pool methods and compare.

Trouble Free Pool has an app that for a small annual subscription ($7.99) it will track your test results that you enter in to it, that is new and I personally keep all of my records in an Excel file. But I know a lot about my pool so when/if something happened, I can immediately know what my tests where and what corrective actions need to be taken. I have not had this happen since I went TFP for our 2017 swim season.

So, yes, your pool passed a sniff and sight test, but unless I am mistaken, you did not perform the OCLT during the previous 10 years, thus you don't really have anything concrete to assess that your pool was fine for the last 10 minutes let alone the last 10 years, other than sensory observations.

Also, it is possible that your CYA was much higher, then Harvey came and bought you time with all that free water that diluted you back. This could have happened 2 years ago but it was further masked until now.

Hypothetical absolutely. And without 10 years of accurate test results, so is the observation that everything was fine.

You are/were a Chemist. So, I assume you get it.

All you can do now, is get your test kit, run the tests, confirm your CYA level and make any adjustments from there. Plenty of good and equally intelligent people around here such as yourself that will be glad to dig into the further mysteries of "why", but right now, you would need some pretty hard scientific test results to have that discussion, an easily affordable highly accurate test kit can do just that.


Cheers,

ps:

One of these pools would never have passed an OCLT test and one of these DID pass an OCLT test. Can you tell which one?

 

[Melnic]

Did you test your own chlorine level?
Keep in mind that the "one thing that changed" may have been on the Leslie's side and your CYA is not what they are saying it is. You already are reporting inconsistent results from Leslie's employees doing the tests.
What method did they use to test the CYA?

The nice thing about your test kit is that you will be able to test your pool water and your fill water separately. I was using a 2 different pool stores last year. One seemed consistent and the other had more variation (used electronic equipment to do the test). The lady used test strips for CYA so the resolution of the results were poor so you could only tell when it was "bad".
I"m new to the TF100 test kit this year but my test results vary so little. CYA test is the most subjective but the nice thing you will find, is that you can dump the water back in and do it over again and average the results.

 

[PoolGate]

"Shocking" is not a part of regular pool care for most people on this site. Sadly, it is for pool store managed pools since your pool frequently is not chlorinated enough (and they want to sell you stuff). I have never, ever, "shocked" my pool. Not even once. Once you unlearn all the bad Leslie's habits you'll find your pool is cleaner, healthier and you'll spend a LOT less money.

What you are seeing with your pool is exactly what happens with the pucks. Eventually the CYA level builds so much that chlorine and the masking chemicals Leslie's sells you to hide what they pucks do no longer do any good anymore and you seek help.

 

[geko29]

CYA builds up over time when you use the chlorine "pucks". Eventually your CYA is so high that your chlorine becomes ineffective. The only real solution is to drain the pool and start over. As you know, dilution is the solution to pollution. 1/3 at a time was not a good strategy. If possible and with the advice of pros, you should have gone perhaps even 100% water change all at once, which can be dangerous with an inground pool. But for sure at least 50% at a time.

This is important, and something that's not immediately intuitive. Let's say a hypothetical pool has an astronomical 300 CYA and you want to bring it down to the recommended range.

If you drain 1/3 of the pool and refill, you will be at 200
Drain another 1/3 and refill, you will be at ~130
Drain another 1/3 and refill, you will be at ~90
Drain another 1/3 and refill, you will be at 60
Drain another 1/3 and refill, you will be at 40
You are done, and have replaced 166% of the volume of the pool.

Alternatively,
Drain 1/2 of the pool and refill, you will be at 150
Drain another 1/2 and refill, you will be at ~75
Drain another 1/2 and refill, you will be at ~40
You are done and have replaced 150% of the volume of the pool

But:
Drain 2/3 of the pool and refill, you are at 100
Drain another 2/3 of the pool and refill, you are at ~30
You are done and have replaced just 133% of the volume of the pool, have done less work, AND have a lower CYA than either of the examples above. Getting to 30 would require 175% replacement doing half at a time (4 changes total), or 200% doing a third at a time (6 changes total).

For a 42,000 gallon pool, the difference could be as much as 30,000 gallons.

 

[skimmerswimmer]

Welcome to TFP! We see it time and time again...folks following pool store advice and using pucks for a long time, then BOOM, it all goes wrong all of a sudden when the CYA/FC relationship goes astray. Once you have your TF-100 kit and get the pool under control by giving it only what it needs, you will be a happy camper with a very manageable and healthy, predictable pool. Glad you found us!

 

[Rollercoastr]

Once you have your TF-100 kit

...and Speed-Stir.

 

[LDswims]

I appreciate all y’all and all the welcomes and advice already received. My TF100 just got ordered (along with the necessary fun magnetic stirrer...once upon a time I was a chemist...and I love me some magnetically stirred tests). I also opted for the pH meter.

I turly suspect Harvey threw our pH way out of whack and since we didn’t test post Harvey, since swim season was over and we have never had to do anything through the winter, we didn’t know. This winter, unlike any other in our 10 years, we had to shock and chlorinate once or twice a month, even with pool temps in the low 50’s, (our pool hit the coldest temp it’s ever seen this winter, at 52 degrees). We are already at 86 degrees, which is actually quite early for us. In the past, mid-May sees around 82. Anyway, with pH wrong, everything went wrong, and we, unknowingly, made it worse by shocking and adding tabs.

Yes, at this point, it’s quite apparent a 100% water exchange from the get-go was in order. Assuming Leslie’s tests were ever accurate. Which even they say, once over 99, they’re not. So who knows what our CYA was back in April when this ordeal came to light.

What I know now is I’m going to get to build a fun excel spreadsheet with all kinds of fun equations to track the everloving *&#) out of our pool forever and ever Amen. And while we got away relatively unharmed with being poolstored, never again will I trust my beloved pool to someone else’s subjectivity. Even though I’m still a subjective liability, I’ll be consistently my own subjectivity. My husband and I even already have a plan in place for how to see our remaining 90lbs of pucks we still have to work through (minimal pucks through the winter when CYA is less stable and/or when we’re on vacation and need to maintain chlorine while we’re not home). Now the shock...that I’m not sure about. Or the phos-free I mentioned previously.

So, off to research where best to acquire liquid chlorine and how much we’ll need to keep around for our not-so-small backyard pool. We tried it once and it was an insane amount but to never get here again, I’m already a convert.

 

[splashpad]

I appreciate all y’all and all the welcomes and advice already received. My TF100 just got ordered (along with the necessary fun magnetic stirrer...once upon a time I was a chemist...and I love me some magnetically stirred tests). I also opted for the pH meter.

Yeah for testing!

What I know now is I’m going to get to build a fun excel spreadsheet with all kinds of fun equations to track the everloving *&#) out of our pool forever and ever Amen. And while we got away relatively unharmed with being poolstored, never again will I trust my beloved pool to someone else’s subjectivity. Even though I’m still a subjective liability, I’ll be consistently my own subjectivity.

I LOVE record keeping! I think it's fun to go back and see/notice trends

My husband and I even already have a plan in place for how to see our remaining 90lbs of pucks we still have to work through (minimal pucks through the winter when CYA is less stable and/or when we’re on vacation and need to maintain chlorine while we’re not home). Now the shock...that I’m not sure about. Or the phos-free I mentioned previously.

The shock (if it's Cal-Hypo) is fine for you to add (it's calcium + sodium hypochlorite but not CYA), No phos-free, can the pucks be returned for store credit on Liquid Chlorine?

So, off to research where best to acquire liquid chlorine and how much we’ll need to keep around for our not-so-small backyard pool. We tried it once and it was an insane amount but to never get here again, I’m already a convert.

Here are some quick links to get you started
Best Places to Buy Liquid Chlorine
2018 Bleach Prices

 

[PoolGate]

I appreciate all y’all and all the welcomes and advice already received. My TF100 just got ordered (along with the necessary fun magnetic stirrer...once upon a time I was a chemist...and I love me some magnetically stirred tests). I also opted for the pH meter.

I turly suspect Harvey threw our pH way out of whack and since we didn’t test post Harvey, since swim season was over and we have never had to do anything through the winter, we didn’t know. This winter, unlike any other in our 10 years, we had to shock and chlorinate once or twice a month, even with pool temps in the low 50’s, (our pool hit the coldest temp it’s ever seen this winter, at 52 degrees). We are already at 86 degrees, which is actually quite early for us. In the past, mid-May sees around 82. Anyway, with pH wrong, everything went wrong, and we, unknowingly, made it worse by shocking and adding tabs.

Yes, at this point, it’s quite apparent a 100% water exchange from the get-go was in order. Assuming Leslie’s tests were ever accurate. Which even they say, once over 99, they’re not. So who knows what our CYA was back in April when this ordeal came to light.

What I know now is I’m going to get to build a fun excel spreadsheet with all kinds of fun equations to track the everloving *&#) out of our pool forever and ever Amen. And while we got away relatively unharmed with being poolstored, never again will I trust my beloved pool to someone else’s subjectivity. Even though I’m still a subjective liability, I’ll be consistently my own subjectivity. My husband and I even already have a plan in place for how to see our remaining 90lbs of pucks we still have to work through (minimal pucks through the winter when CYA is less stable and/or when we’re on vacation and need to maintain chlorine while we’re not home). Now the shock...that I’m not sure about. Or the phos-free I mentioned previously.

So, off to research where best to acquire liquid chlorine and how much we’ll need to keep around for our not-so-small backyard pool. We tried it once and it was an insane amount but to never get here again, I’m already a convert.

You are a prime candidate for a 60k gallon saltwater chlorine generator. Your pool salt level will be around 3.2ppt as apposed to the ocean which is 35ppt. Most people can't even taste the salt in the water. Before your water change my guess is your salt level was probably around 1-2ppt anyway. So you were already 1/2 way to a saltwater pool.

 

[Rollercoastr]

My husband and I even already have a plan in place for how to see our remaining 90lbs of pucks we still have to work through (minimal pucks through the winter when CYA is less stable and/or when we’re on vacation and need to maintain chlorine while we’re not home).

I have a puck in the floater in my pool as I type this. It's common for people to assume that pucks are against TFP methods. That's not at all true. TFP is about accuracy and understanding. I need to add some CYA to my pool. The water is cold and I'm not swimming now. Pucks work great, if used cautiously/sparingly.

 

[CJadamec]

90lbs of pucks is a lot of pucks to get rid of but they hold up in storage for a very long time if stored cool and dry. Pucks can be a useful tool when you are away on vacation and can't manually dose chlorine. So long as you know, and you do now, that every puck brings with it additional CYA and as long as you are tracking CYA levels and maintaining proper FC ratio you will be all set.

The pool math app for your phone is a really handy and easy to use tool to track your pool and it automatically calculates the amount of chemicals you need to bring your pool into range based on your current test results. You can also use the pool math tab on this site as well but it's doesn't track your test results.

When shopping for chlorine pay close attention to the % of chlorine concentration it used to be easy to find 8.25% in most retail outlets but it seems this year most brands have switched to 6% while still charging what the same. Avoid the Clorox products that have the "cloromax technology" symbol on them or there is a target brand the "protects fabric". These bleaches are using an additive that has caused havoc with a few of our members pools. More and more this year it is looking like finding a source for 12.5% liquid chlorine is the most economical way of getting chlorine into the pool if you are using liquid chlorine.

If you aren't keen on buying and storing liquid chlorine getting a Salt water chlorine generator is a really good option. You would need a large cell or possibly two medium sized cells for your pool but you would be amazed at how easy your pool would be to maintain with an SWG and using TFP practices.