High Calcium Level and Borates?

[Parabolic]

I am a pool guy that plans on introducing Borate in some of the pools on my route. Most fill water in my area is CH of 160 or slightly less. So I bring all my pools up to 330 to 350 to obtain a slightly positive LSI. I do currently have one brand new pool(5 months old) above 600(not of my doing, I assume from the new plaster).

What concerns might I have adding Borate in a pool with higher than recommend level of calcium hardness?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Calcium and boron do not react. My pool water is currently at 1500ppm CH and I have >50ppm B in it. No problems whatsoever.

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Just add the boron via boric acid not borax. If you use borax, the pH will skyrocket and you’ll get scaling.

 

[ping]

What's your reason for adding borates?

I like to have borates in my pool when the calcium level is high, above 500ppm. The borates help control the pH rise inside the cell while it is generating chlorine thus helping to prevent scale from forming inside the cell.

 

[Parabolic]

What's your reason for adding borates?

From what I've read, mostly from IPSSA material over the years and also reading around here on TFP. I think borates might help mostly with raising pH, and the other benefits i've read about like its Algaestat benefits, and Chlorine protectorate.

I keep detailed amount logs on all the chemicals amounts I use. I want to see if borates will save me money and make pool water care easier.

 

[Parabolic]

Calcium and boron do not react. My pool water is currently at 1500ppm CH and I have >50ppm B in it. No problems whatsoever.

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Just add the boron via boric acid not borax. If you use borax, the pH will skyrocket and you’ll get scaling.

Wow 1500 CH, you must go through a lot of Taylor reagent, 150 drops worth each time you check your CH? I've always kept my CH at no more than what I had read from most published material to be the max. 98% of all my pools are no more than 400 ppm.

What is your fill water CH level?

And yes, I plan on using Boric Acid only.

How many other here have you heard of having CH so high?

 

[jblizzle]

Use a 10ml water sample for the CH test and then each drop is 25ppm. Still a lot of drops.

 

[Parabolic]

Use a 10ml water sample for the CH test and then each drop is 25ppm. Still a lot of drops.

Great idea! Thanks for that, I'm going try that tomorrow. Also faster

 

[lightmaster]

If you need a good source for boric acid, check out DudaDiesel. Bought my boric acid last Thursday, and it arrived on Saturday. I ordered the 25lb option, and it came in 5 lbs resealable bags.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I don’t test CH very often, once or twice per season. Given where I live, my CH only increases over time, never decreases. I also leave my pool uncovered and so, based on Pan Evaporation data, I evaporate away most of my pool volume in a single year. My municipal water has a general hardness of over 250ppm and a specific calcium hardness of about 180-200ppm.

In a few days I’ll be having a high rate water softener softener added to my home with a line out to the pool autofill. After that install, I’ll be draining and refilling to lower my CH.

1500ppm is still manageable. It just takes more frequent acid additions to keep the TA down to 50-60ppm and the pH in the 7.5-7.7 range. That keeps the CSI slightly on the negative side.

 

[Parabolic]

Use a 10ml water sample for the CH test and then each drop is 25ppm. Still a lot of drops.

How do you do all your reagents drop wise?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

How do you do all your reagents drop wise?

10 drops of R-0010
3 drops of R-0011L
Add R-0012 dropwise until the transition completes from red/pink to blue (test ends when final blue shade is reached).

For a 10mL water sample, each drop of R-0012 titrant is 25ppm CH.

 

[Parabolic]

10 drops of R-0010
3 drops of R-0011L
Add R-0012 dropwise until the transition completes from red/pink to blue (test ends when final blue shade is reached).

For a 10mL water sample, each drop of R-0012 titrant is 25ppm CH.

Ok. So the 3 drops of R-0011L produces a correct result. That was the stage I was wondering about.

 

[jblizzle]

It really does not matter how much of the dye you use. You could still add 5 and the test would be fine.

 

[Parabolic]

10 drops of R-0010
3 drops of R-0011L
Add R-0012 dropwise until the transition completes from red/pink to blue (test ends when final blue shade is reached).

For a 10mL water sample, each drop of R-0012 titrant is 25ppm CH.

It really does not matter how much of the dye you use. You could still add 5 and the test would be fine.

Thanks to both of you. I'll try it.

 

[cfherrman]

I do the 10 mil test on ta too

 

[Parabolic]

10 drops of R-0010
3 drops of R-0011L
Add R-0012 dropwise until the transition completes from red/pink to blue (test ends when final blue shade is reached).

For a 10mL water sample, each drop of R-0012 titrant is 25ppm CH.

So I tried this out yesterday at a new pool startup. Using the 20 drop test first it was hard to distinguish the exact endpoint, approximately 420 ppm(salt pool that I added Calcium Prills, 160 was the fill water). With the 10 drop iteration it made it easy to distinguish the endpoint. I like this 10 drop way of testing for calcium. Some pools water seems harder than other to determine the exact(+/- 10 ppm) endpoint of the calcium test.

 

[tim5055]

I just wanted to point out that you need to be consulting with your clients before adding borates to their pools. Borates are toxic to animals at much lower rates than humans. If they have a dog that regularly swims or drinks from the pool there could be health consequences for the dog.

Just a head sup.....

 

[lightmaster]

Borates can also be dangerous to little kids. Anything under 100ppm doesn't pose much of a risk to kids or pets and the recommended level is half that (50ppm). But if you mess up the calculations and put way too much, it could become an issue and you'd likely be held liable for someone else's kids, so definitely be careful when/if they agree to borates.

 

[tim5055]

Borates can also be dangerous to little kids. Anything under 100ppm doesn't pose much of a risk to kids or pets and the recommended level is half that (50ppm). But if you mess up the calculations and put way too much, it could become an issue and you'd likely be held liable for someone else's kids, so definitely be careful when/if they agree to borates.

50 is the area where pets are susceptible to toxicity.

 

[Parabolic]

I just wanted to point out that you need to be consulting with your clients before adding borates to their pools. Borates are toxic to animals at much lower rates than humans. If they have a dog that regularly swims or drinks from the pool there could be health consequences for the dog.

Just a head sup.....

50 is the area where pets are susceptible to toxicity.

You are correct. 50 ppm.

At 50 ppm, the starting point for toxicity for adults humans, you'd have to drink 25 liters.