Help choosing a new variable speed pump

[Jahlon]

I recently made a post asking for advice after determining that the SWG system I have is undersized for my pool (see here). As a result, I decided the best option is to upgrade to a variable speed pump, as that will allow me to run my SWG longer and with less energy consumption. I talked to the company that installed my SWG and made the mistake, and they are willing to give me an upgraded salt cell (TCELL940, replacing my current TCELL925). However I think I'm going to ask them instead to install a new variable speed pump, and I'll pay the difference between what that costs and the TCELL940. Before I do that however, I want to make sure I know what pump I want.

My pool is rectangular, 40x20 ft, shallow end depth of 4 ft and deep end depth of 7.5 ft. My current pump is a Pentair SuperFlo single-speed pump Model # SF-N1-1A. I'm not sure what else I would need to know in order to determine what pump would be sufficient, or any other considerations. The one suggested by the pool company was a "Pentair VS 2.2", which I assume is the Pentair SuperFlo VST 2.2 THP model. Would that work, or is there a better option? I know some can be controlled remotely via app - that would be nice, but not necessary if those pumps are way more expensive.

 

[mknauss]

If you have a Hayward SWCG and a Pentair pump, I assume you do not have automation.

If so, you can look at a VS motor and keep the pump wet end.
@1poolman1 can provide some suggestions.

 

[1poolman1]

I recently made a post asking for advice after determining that the SWG system I have is undersized for my pool (see here). As a result, I decided the best option is to upgrade to a variable speed pump, as that will allow me to run my SWG longer and with less energy consumption. I talked to the company that installed my SWG and made the mistake, and they are willing to give me an upgraded salt cell (TCELL940, replacing my current TCELL925). However I think I'm going to ask them instead to install a new variable speed pump, and I'll pay the difference between what that costs and the TCELL940. Before I do that however, I want to make sure I know what pump I want.

My pool is rectangular, 40x20 ft, shallow end depth of 4 ft and deep end depth of 7.5 ft. My current pump is a Pentair SuperFlo single-speed pump Model # SF-N1-1A. I'm not sure what else I would need to know in order to determine what pump would be sufficient, or any other considerations. The one suggested by the pool company was a "Pentair VS 2.2", which I assume is the Pentair SuperFlo VST 2.2 THP model. Would that work, or is there a better option? I know some can be controlled remotely via app - that would be nice, but not necessary if those pumps are way more expensive.

Not a big fan of the Super Flo, or any medium-head pump, for filtration, but you could install a Nidec Neptune NPTQ165 motor to what you have now and it would then be a VSP. Trade off is that with that 1.65THP medium-head pump, the rpms would have to be higher to get a SWG to work negating some of the VSP benefit.
A better option would be the Waterway Power Defender PD270, a 2.7THP high-head pump that could be turned to a lower RPM than the Super Flo to get the flow needed to run a SWG. They have the Neptune motor on them with all its built-in capabilities and are considerably less than other brands for the same horsepower. No automation adapter for them, though relay control is possible, so if automation is involved it may be better to get a matching brand pump.
Of all the ones I have installed, probably 25 - 30, not a single one has failed to date.

 

[Jahlon]

Not a big fan of the Super Flo, or any medium-head pump, for filtration, but you could install a Nidec Neptune NPTQ165 motor to what you have now and it would then be a VSP. Trade off is that with that 1.65THP medium-head pump, the rpms would have to be higher to get a SWG to work negating some of the VSP benefit.
A better option would be the Waterway Power Defender PD270, a 2.7THP high-head pump that could be turned to a lower RPM than the Super Flo to get the flow needed to run a SWG. They have the Neptune motor on them with all its built-in capabilities and are considerably less than other brands for the same horsepower. No automation adapter for them, though relay control is possible, so if automation is involved it may be better to get a matching brand pump.
Of all the ones I have installed, probably 25 - 30, not a single one has failed to date.

So I need some education... What is the difference between one pump and another that determines what RPMs are needed to get the SWG to work? What specs do I need to be aware of about the pump and/or SWG to know that?

Also didn't realize that automation is something typically added to a pump - I thought the pump itself had to come with some automation system for it to work. For example, Pentair has their own app that works with their pumps. How would I typically add automation to a pump (assuming it is supported)?

 

[PoolStored]

So I need some education... What is the difference between one pump and another that determines what RPMs are needed to get the SWG to work? What specs do I need to be aware of about the pump and/or SWG to know that?

Its not about the SWCG, either can get it to work. It is about flow and energy consumption. A higher head pump, at lower RPM, will pump the same amount of water as a lower head pump.

You want to run as slow as possible for the SWCG. With a VSP, you clean the filter, then run the pump rpms down until the SWCG turns off. Then add 200RPM for a dirty filter.

I have a Superflo VSP (medium head pump). I need to run about 1800RPM and 500W. If I had a 3HP Intelliflo (high head pump), I could run lower RPM, move the same amount of water and probably do it around 200W, saving 250-300W. Saves electricity.

Also didn't realize that automation is something typically added to a pump - I thought the pump itself had to come with some automation system for it to work. For example, Pentair has their own app that works with their pumps. How would I typically add automation to a pump (assuming it is supported)?

You are thinking about it backwards. IF you have automation, you typically want to match your pump brand to your automation...makes it easier.

You don't need automation with a VSP, if you don't want it. I have a VSP, and do not want automation. Pump speed maintenance from the pump is sufficient for me.

If you want automation, and you are thinking about replacing the pump, then it makes sense to make a decision about the automation, the explore the pumps within the same brand.

 

[Jahlon]

You want to run as slow as possible for the SWCG.

At the risk of asking a dumb question - why? Is this because the SWG has more time to convert the salt into chlorine if it's moving through the cell slower, making it more efficient? Or is this also just about reducing energy consumption (or both)?

You are thinking about it backwards. IF you have automation, you typically want to match your pump brand to your automation...makes it easier.

You don't need automation with a VSP, if you don't want it. I have a VSP, and do not want automation. Pump speed maintenance from the pump is sufficient for me.

If you want automation, and you are thinking about replacing the pump, then it makes sense to make a decision about the automation, the explore the pumps within the same brand.

So in order to have automation that controls both my pump and SWG, I'd need to look for a Hayward pump, since I have a Hayward SWG? (This assumes the SWG system I have even supports adding automation.)

 

[sande005]

You should define a bit more what you want automation to do for you. How much of an issue is it to look at the pump/SWCG displays, and make adjustments if desired? Are there other things that you would like to coordinate with less hassle - robots, spas, waterfalls, fountains, etc?

The only reason for low pump speed is to save BIG time in energy.
The only critical need with the SWCG is to make sure it is not running during times the pump is off (it never cares about the pump speed, as long as there is the minimum to let it work at all).
Some configurations can be wired to allow the SWCG to only get power when the pump motor is running. Some others (like mine) may need clock timers to keep things in synch.
I keep my pump as low as I can go to keep the SWCG running, and get reasonable skimming. No biggie to hit the "override" button on it when I need max speed for vacuuming or other. Other than that, I never mess with the pump - it just chugs along 24/7. I run so slow, there is no concern about having to have significant off times to save money, the dollar a day I would save is worth it to have skimming happen around the clock.

Once dialed in, the SWCG only needs infrequent tweaking to raise or lower its power. I test for Cl once a week, and it is no issue to walk over and bump it up or down a little, and then see where things are the next week. There have been periods of no change needed at all for a month at a time.

Remote control automation is cool, and some like that. Or you may have a lot of other things to deal with (spas, waterfalls, fountains) where multiple device controls gets problematic. But a lot of the time, it is a "set and forget" scenario.

 

[Lake Placid]

At the risk of asking a dumb question - why? Is this because the SWG has more time to convert the salt into chlorine if it's moving through the cell slower, making it more efficient? Or is this also just about reducing energy consumption (or both)?

It’s about the balance of running the pump slow to save $$ on energy consumption, but move enough water to trigger the SWG’s flow switch so it will operate and produce chlorine.

So in order to have automation that controls both my pump and SWG, I'd need to look for a Hayward pump, since I have a Hayward SWG? (This assumes the SWG system I have even supports adding automation.)

Do you currently have automation? Automation is nothing more than an automated control solution that allows you to control the various components of your pool without manually turning switches and knobs at the pad. For example Hayward OmniLogic or Pentair Intellicenter.

Examples: Automation Pool Automation

If you don’t have automation and a retrofit is unlikely unless you are planning a major renovation to your pool, then you have more options in a pump, because it doesn’t need to communicate with other components in the system via any currently installed automation.

 

[Jahlon]

You should define a bit more what you want automation to do for you. How much of an issue is it to look at the pump/SWCG displays, and make adjustments if desired? Are there other things that you would like to coordinate with less hassle - robots, spas, waterfalls, fountains, etc?

The only reason for low pump speed is to save BIG time in energy.
The only critical need with the SWCG is to make sure it is not running during times the pump is off (it never cares about the pump speed, as long as there is the minimum to let it work at all).
Some configurations can be wired to allow the SWCG to only get power when the pump motor is running. Some others (like mine) may need clock timers to keep things in synch.
I keep my pump as low as I can go to keep the SWCG running, and get reasonable skimming. No biggie to hit the "override" button on it when I need max speed for vacuuming or other. Other than that, I never mess with the pump - it just chugs along 24/7. I run so slow, there is no concern about having to have significant off times to save money, the dollar a day I would save is worth it to have skimming happen around the clock.

Once dialed in, the SWCG only needs infrequent tweaking to raise or lower its power. I test for Cl once a week, and it is no issue to walk over and bump it up or down a little, and then see where things are the next week. There have been periods of no change needed at all for a month at a time.

Remote control automation is cool, and some like that. Or you may have a lot of other things to deal with (spas, waterfalls, fountains) where multiple device controls gets problematic. But a lot of the time, it is a "set and forget" scenario.

Thanks for clarifying that. That's exactly what I want: to run the pump as much as possible with as little energy as possible to save electricity costs. That's the main reason I'd prefer to switch to a VS pump rather than upgrade the salt cell as a solution to my undersized SWCG problem. By my estimates, it will be much more cost effective in the long run.

Still want to understand 1poolman1's suggestion above to get a high head pump rather than medium head. What is the advantage of that? Does it really have anything to do with the SWCG, or is it just that it will provide better filtration at a lower speed? Why would anyone want a medium head pump?

I have literally no need for automation. I don't have any other utilities other than the pump and SWCG and don't plan on getting any. My SWCG only gets power when the pump is on, so I don't have to do any syncing. I mentioned it more because I'm the type of person that likes to make everything in my house "smart" (all the lights in my house, thermostat, etc.). I just figured if I'm replacing my pump anyway, why not look into it? As long as it's not way more expensive without adding any real value other than the "cool" factor.

 

[BMerrill]

Just for comparison.
Have 2" PVC piping, Hayward TriStar 950 VSP with SWCG all on OmniLogic.
Run the Pump 12 hours daily at 1500 rpm flows 50 GPM at 230 watts.
I have a crystal clear trouble free pool.

 

[PoolStored]

At the risk of asking a dumb question - why? Is this because the SWG has more time to convert the salt into chlorine if it's moving through the cell slower, making it more efficient? Or is this also just about reducing energy consumption (or both)?

You can run the SWG at lower % output. You save electrical costs. Filters filter better at low speed.

So in order to have automation that controls both my pump and SWG, I'd need to look for a Hayward pump, since I have a Hayward SWG? (This assumes the SWG system I have even supports adding automation.)

Yes. I don't have automation and won't get it. It is more hassle.

Still want to understand 1poolman1's suggestion above to get a high head pump rather than medium head. What is the advantage of that? Does it really have anything to do with the SWCG, or is it just that it will provide better filtration at a lower speed? Why would anyone want a medium head pump?

I have a Superflo VSP it is a medium head pump. To run my heater, I need 35GPM which requires running 2200 RPM, or close to 700W. If I had a high head pump like an Intelliflo, I could likely run about 1500RPM and 250W. This would save me about $40/month. A high head pump moves the same amount of water at a lower RPM saving electrical costs.

 

[Jahlon]

It’s about the balance of running the pump slow to save $$ on energy consumption, but move enough water to trigger the SWG’s flow switch so it will operate and produce chlorine.

Ok, so for a SWCG there is some minimum flow needed for it to kick on, and after that the amount of flow doesn't matter in terms of chlorine generation? Out of curiosity, is there some specification to look at on the SWCG to know what that minimum flow is, or is it more of a test and see kind of thing?

If you don’t have automation and a retrofit is unlikely unless you are planning a major renovation to your pool, then you have more options in a pump, because it doesn’t need to communicate with other components in the system via any currently installed automation.

I do not have automation, however since I have a Hayward AquaRite 900 SWCG system, I'm thinking it may be worth looking for a Hayward VS pump. Even if I don't add automation right now, later down the road if I decide I want to have fun and add automation, I could get the Hayward OmniLogic controller and everything should be compatible without any major renovations. Maybe this is stupid because as I said before, I really have no reason to add automation, and from a quick google it looks like it is at least a couple thousand dollars... But this is the way I think, I like to keep my options open .

Looks like this would mean a Hayward TriStar VS 950 - which I think is a high-head pump? (Not sure how to tell, doesn't specifically say, at least not anywhere I can find...)

You can run the SWG at lower % output. You save electrical costs. Filters filter better at low speed.

I have a Superflo VSP it is a medium head pump. To run my heater, I need 35GPM which requires running 2200 RPM, or close to 700W. If I had a high head pump like an Intelliflo, I could likely run about 1500RPM and 250W. This would save me about $40/month. A high head pump moves the same amount of water at a lower RPM saving electrical costs.

So, sounds like in general, a high head pump is always better. In other words, definitely get a high head pump.

 

[PoolStored]

Ok, so for a SWCG there is some minimum flow needed for it to kick on, and after that the amount of flow doesn't matter in terms of chlorine generation? Out of curiosity, is there some specification to look at on the SWCG to know what that minimum flow is, or is it more of a test and see kind of thing?

Yep, just minimum flow. Test and see.

Look at the Hayward Tristar 950 VSP.

 

[sande005]

This may help you to compare as you shop:

Pump DOE Regulations - Further Reading

 

[1poolman1]

At the risk of asking a dumb question - why? Is this because the SWG has more time to convert the salt into chlorine if it's moving through the cell slower, making it more efficient? Or is this also just about reducing energy consumption (or both)?



So in order to have automation that controls both my pump and SWG, I'd need to look for a Hayward pump, since I have a Hayward SWG? (This assumes the SWG system I have even supports adding automation.)

You Do Not need automation to control your SWG and a VSP. I don't have any, with my Hayward VSP and Hayward SWG. The pump will have its own control to set when it starts, stops, changes speeds. A SWG can be on a time clock set to start after the main pump starts and shut off either a bit before (best) or the same time as the main pump.
A larger total horsepower VSP will move more water for each revolution of the impeller than a smaller one will, so the smaller THP will have to run faster to accomplish the same amount of work which negates the main advantage of a VSP. The faster the RPM the more energy used.

The recommendation is get the largest in THP pump and a SWG that has the capability of a pool twice your size for the best in efficiency, cell life, energy savings, etc.

 

[Jahlon]

You Do Not need automation to control your SWG and a VSP. I don't have any, with my Hayward VSP and Hayward SWG. The pump will have its own control to set when it starts, stops, changes speeds. A SWG can be on a time clock set to start after the main pump starts and shut off either a bit before (best) or the same time as the main pump.
A larger total horsepower VSP will move more water for each revolution of the impeller than a smaller one will, so the smaller THP will have to run faster to accomplish the same amount of work which negates the main advantage of a VSP. The faster the RPM the more energy used.

The recommendation is get the largest in THP pump and a SWG that has the capability of a pool twice your size for the best in efficiency, cell life, energy savings, etc.

Yes I am clear on the fact that I don't need automation, and I'm not in any hurry to get it. If I do in a couple years I want to add automation "just because", I don't want to regret that I didn't get a matching brand pump. You may be convincing me however not to bother with automation. Right now it looks like I'm between your suggestion of a Waterway Power Defender PD270 and a Hayward TriStar VS 950. The Hayward would open up the option of automation in the future if I want, but it seems to be significantly more expensive. I think they are both 2.7 THP, so probably no advantage to the Hayward other than the possibility of automation. So probably not worth the extra money.

 

[1poolman1]

Yes I am clear on the fact that I don't need automation, and I'm not in any hurry to get it. If I do in a couple years I want to add automation "just because", I don't want to regret that I didn't get a matching brand pump. You may be convincing me however not to bother with automation. Right now it looks like I'm between your suggestion of a Waterway Power Defender PD270 and a Hayward TriStar VS 950. The Hayward would open up the option of automation in the future if I want, but it seems to be significantly more expensive. I think they are both 2.7 THP, so probably no advantage to the Hayward other than the possibility of automation. So probably not worth the extra money.

Automation is able to control a Power Defender, just a bit more difficult.

 

[Jahlon]

Automation is able to control a Power Defender, just a bit more difficult.

Would that be the "relay control" you mentioned above? Any idea where I can learn more about how that works? I'd be interested to look into that.

 

[1poolman1]

Would that be the "relay control" you mentioned above? Any idea where I can learn more about how that works? I'd be interested to look into that.

Download a PowerDefender or Nidec Neptune NPTQXXX manual.

 

[Woody007]

You should define a bit more what you want automation to do for you. How much of an issue is it to look at the pump/SWCG displays, and make adjustments if desired? Are there other things that you would like to coordinate with less hassle - robots, spas, waterfalls, fountains, etc?

The only reason for low pump speed is to save BIG time in energy.
The only critical need with the SWCG is to make sure it is not running during times the pump is off (it never cares about the pump speed, as long as there is the minimum to let it work at all).
Some configurations can be wired to allow the SWCG to only get power when the pump motor is running. Some others (like mine) may need clock timers to keep things in synch.
I keep my pump as low as I can go to keep the SWCG running, and get reasonable skimming. No biggie to hit the "override" button on it when I need max speed for vacuuming or other. Other than that, I never mess with the pump - it just chugs along 24/7. I run so slow, there is no concern about having to have significant off times to save money, the dollar a day I would save is worth it to have skimming happen around the clock.

Once dialed in, the SWCG only needs infrequent tweaking to raise or lower its power. I test for Cl once a week, and it is no issue to walk over and bump it up or down a little, and then see where things are the next week. There have been periods of no change needed at all for a month at a time.

Remote control automation is cool, and some like that. Or you may have a lot of other things to deal with (spas, waterfalls, fountains) where multiple device controls gets problematic. But a lot of the time, it is a "set and forget" scenario.

If I run the pump all the time at a flow rate that satisfies the SWCG or higher, then I don't need to worry about cutting power to the SWCG, right?
Currently I have a single speed pump on a timer. The SWCG gets its power from the same timer as the pump. With new VS pump I would just take the pins out and let everything be on all the time?