Hayward Color Logic Might Be Dangerous

[amattas]

I posted about a month ago about replacing my pool lights, I finally got around to doing the replacements, and what I found with my old ones was quite disturbing. I'm glad these were the 12v version and not the 110v version. My suspicion is the glue/sealent used on this part degraded over time, we then had our liner changed and the heat from them sitting out of the pool caused it to shrink, and then after re-install there was water ingress. Both lights had the same failure point.

 

[ajw22]

All pool lights should have GFCI CBs which mitigate the danger.

Water ingress into pool lights is a very common problem.

 

[JamesW]

All pool lights should have GFCI CBs which mitigate the danger.

A GFCI won't protect 12 volt lights.

The transformer separates the lights from the GFCI.

Anything downstream from the transformer is invisible to the GFCI and the circuit breaker.

In my opinion, transformers should be required to have a GFCI breaker for the 12 volt pool lights.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

120VAC is much more dangerous than 12VDC. It’s the current that kills a person (by distrusting cardiac function) but 12VDC supplies can rarely generate enough current to kill a person given the resistance of one’s skin and bodily tissues. Even 120VAC is generally not strong enough to kill a person although it can cause serious burns and, in certain weakened individuals, it can cause cardiac dysfunction. 240VAC and DC voltages above 50V generally have the potential to cause cardiac arrest and so they are classified as dangerous and must be treated as such when designing power equipment.

A properly rated pool light transformer has the primary and secondary windings separated from one another and insulated so that lethal voltages cannot cross over. A GFCI on the primary side does little on the secondary side but good transformers will often have in-line fuses on the secondary to limit current levels. Adding a GFI circuit to the secondary side would certainly make the transformer “safer” but at a cost and it would add complexity that may not be necessary.

My opinion is that 12V (ac or dc) is safe enough on its own that it’s unnecessary to add anything to the secondary side as long as the transformer is rated for pool use.

 

[JamesW]

A GFCI on the primary side does little on the secondary side but good transformers will often have in-line fuses on the secondary to limit current levels.

I think that I have seen only one model that had any type of fuse and that model was discontinued.

What models do you know that have any sort of fuse or breaker?

If there is a short, the current can be high enough to melt the wire insulation.

The current on the secondary side is 10 times as high as on the primary side, so it would take 150 amps to reach the 15 amp rating on a 15 amp breaker and even then, the breaker won't trip.

A 15 amp breaker is not even required to trip until it gets to 20.25 amps (135%), and even then, it can take up to 1 hour.

That's 202.5 amps for 1 hour on the low voltage side.

In my opinion, all transformers should be required to have a GFCI circuit breaker built into the transformer to protect the downstream lights, wires and people.

https://goodsonengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CircuitBreakerMyths_web.pdf

 

[JamesW]

No fuses or breakers.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The fuse was to limit the current on the secondary side that was being supplied to sensitive equipment, not the primary. It wasn’t a pool application. You can always add an inline fuse if you want. So the fuse limit was much, much lower than the potential output current of a dead short.

I agree that on the secondary you can get high currents but those are generally burn and fire hazards, not lethal hazards. The human body can’t conduct enough current at low voltage to be dangerous. It’s analogous to car battery - you can grab both terminals with your hand and you won’t feel a thing (maybe a slight tingle) but if you put a screwdriver across the terminal, you’ll get as much as 400A of current that can melt the screwdriver and boil the electrolyte inside the battery.

 

[amattas]

The human body can’t conduct enough current at low voltage to be dangerous. It’s analogous to car battery

Except that you'r sin salt water which conducts electricity quite well.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Except that you'r sin salt water which conducts electricity quite well.

That doesn’t matter. The electric current will flow mainly over the surface of your skin where the water is and it won’t penetrate your body. Electrocution causing death or severe injury by a low voltage fault is next to impossible under most circumstances. That’s why it is used for exterior ground lighting and pool lighting. It is inherently much safer than high voltage AC with GFCI protection.

Simply replace the light fixture and make sure that the wiring powering it is in good shape and no faults are detectable. Then resume life and worry about other more important things …