GE GFCI trips under certain conditions.

[Orion7319]

The power factor is lower at lower speeds which might be why you are having problems at low speed.

I would try the Siemens breaker if it will fit in your breaker box.

Or, get a new individual box for the new beaker if necessary.

Siemens 20 Amp Double Pole Type QPF2 GFCI Circuit Breaker US2:QF220AP - The Home Depot

Prevent a ground fault in construction applications like spas, hot tubs, kitchens or bathrooms with this Siemens Double Pole Type QPF GFCI Circuit Breaker.

www.homedepot.com

Is there any reason this breaker won’t work in this box (other then it’s old and probably getting kinda crusty) The breaker feeds the old timer. I used the lugs in the timer to feed the pump directly and just bypassed the timer. The timer feeds and only controls the Hayward salt cell. I do have a double pole 20 amp (I think if I remember correctly) switch that I was using to turn the salt cell off in the winter so I could still run the old single speed pump and I did have that pump hooked to the timer. I can delete that now as it’s no longer needed. The old box labeled “Polaris” is just there with no wiring. I really need to clean this stuff up some…. Oh and yes someone “secured” the main and skimmer lines with a rope…

 

[laprjns]

I'm using a QF215 in a GE load center. The GE breakers in the box are THQL style. Also, fyi I use a current sensing relay (see my avatar) to power my SWCG. When then pump is pulling amps above what needed for the controller, the relay pulls in and switch 115V to the SWCG. The current trip point level is adjustable.

BTW my GE Load center is in my shed also.

 

[Orion7319]

I'm using a QF215 in a GE load center. The GE breakers in the box are THQL style. Also, fyi I use a current sensing relay (see my avatar) to power my SWCG. When then pump is pulling amps above what needed for the controller, the relay pulls in and switch 115V to the SWCG. The current trip point level is adjustable.

BTW my GE Load center is in my shed also.
View attachment 343183View attachment 343185

Ok, thanks! It looks like my existing GE breaker is a GE THQL as well. So I should be able to simply swap it out. Also I found this and it states. “Siemens plug-on breakers are very similar to the GE THQL and in most cases will physically fit however UL listing may be lost when using Siemens breakers in GE equipment. Always contact the manufacturer of your equipment to verify what devices are approved before installing.” So what should I make of that statement?? The relay that your using sounds interesting! I run my pump 24/7 and so I recently started running my salt cell 24/7 as well. So far I am having good results!

Siemens QP series circuit breakers

Siemens QP series standard overcurrent, GFCI, AFCI, and tendem circuit breakers

www.rileyelectricalsupply.com

 

[laprjns]

So what should I make of that statement??

I went through that last year when I was trying to resolve my breaker tripping problem. In end I had to satisfy myself that using the Siemens breaker was the safest solution. Here's what I posted in a similar thread last July in regards to what I found during my research of this problem.

After running VS pump last season without a GFCI breaker I finally got around to installing one this season. Given that I have a GE load center panel I installed a GE THQL2120GF double pole ground fault breaker ($93) which is listed on the panels label. It didn't work, GFI trips immediately when breaker is switched on. In researching this I found the following, in no particular order.

1) This is apparently a common problem with the noise from the high frequency inverter and or rectifier of the VFD causing the GFCI protection to trip. In some cases it may just be intermittent but my case it was immediate. Never was able to run the motor.
2) Siemens QPF2 GFCI are designed to be immune to this noise.
3) Pentair has their own GFCI breaker which they have listed for their load center panels. This breaker is just a re-branded Siemens QPF2 GFCI.
4) Listed breakers - All loaded center panels have listed on their labels breakers that are approved for use in the panel. In order to be listed, they must be approved by UL. To get UL approval, the manufacture of the panel needs to pay UL for design assessment and/or test of the breaker for use in the panel. No manufacture is going to pay for the approval of another manufactures breaker in their panel.
5) Classified breakers. Some manufactures (Eaton) have replacement breakers that have been tested and approved in other manufactures panels. Eaton has a cross reference of their Classified replacement breakers to other manufactures breakers.
6) It's my understanding that the use of classified breakers (note that the classified breaker list the various panels that it is approved for in the supplied documentation) does meet the code requirements, although some building inspectors may balk at it. Some manufactures (Square D) are resisting the use of Classified breaker in their panels for obvious reasons.
For my GE panel, there appears to be no classified double pole GFCI breaker available. The Siemens QPF breakers do fit in my panel and from what I found on the internet and told by an electrician, will work without problems. However it is neither listed nor classified for use in my panel. So my choice is to be non code compliant by either using normal breaker (non GFCI protected) or use the Siemens QFP breaker. I'm going with the Siemens breaker.

 

[Orion7319]

I went through that last year when I was trying to resolve my breaker tripping problem. In end I had to satisfy myself that using the Siemens breaker was the safest solution. Here's what I posted in a similar thread last July in regards to what I found during my research of this problem.

Thanks! Sounds like if I want to make sure it’s code and UL listed then I might as well replace the box while I’m at it. That shouldn’t be that big of a deal. I am assuming that this is a more then adequate replacement for my application?

Siemens EQ 60 Amp 2-Space 4-Circuit Main Lug Surface Mount Load Center E0204ML1060SU - The Home Depot

www.homedepot.com

 

[ImpalaSS]

The Siemens breaker should work in the GE panel but may not fit perfect with the cover in all situations. If it was a new installation the inspector would not allow because of the UL. New Pentair control panels are listed for several manufacturers.

 

[Orion7319]

The Siemens breaker should work in the GE panel but may not fit perfect with the cover in all situations. If it was a new installation the inspector would not allow because of the UL. New Pentair control panels are listed for several manufacturers.

So the consensus is to just try and replace the Siemens breaker in the GE box then? When adding a breaker I have always just used the same brand as the box. This is kinda new territory for me.

 

[ImpalaSS]

The breaker may, or may not be your problem. What is the listed amp on your motor nameplate? If its over 15a you could have a problem with a 20a breaker. You can go up to a 30a breaker.

 

[Orion7319]

The breaker may, or may not be your problem. What is the listed amp on your motor nameplate? If its over 15a you could have a problem with a 20a breaker. You can go up to a 30a breaker.

It’s a pentair superflow VST. I’m not sure how it’s different then a superflow VS.

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/pentair-pool/residential/manuals/pumps/superflovs/supervs-install-english.pdf

 

[laprjns]

Breakers protect the wiring, not the devices connected to it. A 30 amp breaker is used on circuits with 10 gauge wiring. I doubt that you have 10 gauge wiring, most likely it's 12 gauge wiring which requires a 20 amp breaker or less.
According to the manual (page 22) the listed current for 230V input voltage is 8.2 amps, so it well inside the capability of a 20 amp breaker.

 

[Orion7319]

Breakers protect the wiring, not the devices connected to it. A 30 amp breaker is used on circuits with 10 gauge wiring. I doubt that you have 10 gauge wiring, most likely it's 12 gauge wiring which requires a 20 amp breaker or less.
According to the manual (page 22) the listed current for 230V input voltage is 8.2 amps, so it well inside the capability of a 20 amp breaker.

I’m pretty sure all the old stuff is 12 guage, but I I haven’t paid much attention to it really. When I wired the double pole switch to the SWG, I used 12 gauge. I do have an old house that was built in the 60s and it looks to me that a lot of the outlets in the original part of the house are 14 gauge, so who knows. The pool contractor who fixed up my pool and installed the pump had his electrician wire the pump and install the GE GFCI breaker. I’m pretty sure the electrician used a GE breaker simply because it’s a GE box.

 

[Orion7319]

The breaker came in today. I hadn’t planned to install it today however I never looked at the wiring in the existing box before so I decided it probably would be best to look at it beforehand to see if I needed anything for the installation. This is an old house, built in the 60’s and the pool was installed in the late 70’s or early 80’s. Also I’m pretty sure that the previous owners did a lot of the wiring themselves, which is allowed in my county for remodels and stuff. They don’t inspect that kind of stuff in the county, but do in the city… makes no sense! At any rate I think I probably need to call and electrician, after opening this thing up. I noticed that the pig tale from the GFCI breaker is installed to the neutral bar. However I thought the neutral going to the pump was supposed to be hooked to the neutral slot on the breaker. There is no ground, only a neutral, the timer that this is hooked to has ground connections with ground wires hooked to them. There is a 40 amp breaker that seems to feed the 20amp GFCI breaker. It only seems to kill one of the two legs though and will kill the pump motor, but not the display. I’m not an electrician however, should there be a ground or is this acceptable for a 60’s 70’s structure and would it just be grandfathered in? Should I just install the new GFCI and simply hook the existing white wire load wire to the new GFCI?

 

[Orion7319]

I’m thinking the white wire has to be ground. 240 doesn’t need a neutral. It even says right on the box that neutral isn’t used. But then why do these GFCI breakers have the neutral pigtail? All the videos show them hooking them up to the neutral bar. How is this supposed to be installed if it has no neutral bar? And only 110 needs neutral….I’m confused, but then again I’m not an electrician…

Why Do 240V Circuits Not Require Neutral?

Someone told me that a 240V circuit does not require a neutral wire in the cable. Can anyone explain this phenomenon from the electricity perspective and generally explain why circuits do and do not

diy.stackexchange.com

 

[JamesW]

The breaker has a neutral so that you can connect 120 and 240 to the breaker at the same time.

The breaker works by measuring the current on all three wires at the same time so that the current comes out to zero.

The load neutral has to go through the breaker so that the breaker can account for the current on the neutral wire.

If you only connect a 240 load to the breaker, then you won't use the neutral terminal on the breaker, but you still connect the neutral pigtail from the breaker to the neutral bar.

You need an equipment grounding conductor (green ground wire) from the main breaker panel to the subpanel.

You should have an electrician check the installation to make sure that it is up to current code.

 

[Orion7319]

The breaker has a neutral so that you can connect 120 and 240 to the breaker at the same time.

The breaker works by measuring the current on all three wires at the same time so that the current comes out to zero.

The load neutral has to go through the breaker so that the breaker can account for the current on the neutral wire.

If you only connect a 240 load to the breaker, then you won't use the neutral terminal on the breaker, but you still connect the neutral pigtail from the breaker to the neutral bar.

You need an equipment grounding conductor (green ground wire) from the main breaker panel to the subpanel.

You should have an electrician check the installation to make sure that it is up to current code.

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking that I need to have another company come out and look. I did have an electrician remove the original breaker and install the current GFCI breaker that’s there now, which has me really confused. I had it installed because I was concerned about it not having a GFCI and wanted to make sure it’s safe. My mother knew someone who had a pool. He had a heater installed. Whoever he hired to install it apparently did something wrong and when he got into his pool and when the heater kicked on, he was electrocuted and killed. I was frustrated when I opened it up yesterday and could tell it’s missing either the neutral or the ground. At least I know the sub panel in the shed that feeds this one has a proper neutral and ground because my cheap tester tells me the 110 outlets have them.

 

[ImpalaSS]

Its hard to really tell what you have just from pictures. Depending on that feed wire your panel may or may not be grounded.

I would have a licensed electrician look at this and make the appropriate corrections based on what he sees in the total power feed to this equipment. Don't rely on input from me or anyone else on this site who hasn't seen this in person. You or someone else's life may depend on it.

 

[Orion7319]

Its hard to really tell what you have just from pictures. Depending on that feed wire your panel may or may not be grounded.

I would have a licensed electrician look at this and make the appropriate corrections based on what he sees in the total power feed to this equipment. Don't rely on input from me or anyone else on this site who hasn't seen this in person. You or someone else's life may depend on it.

Yes, that’s my plan. It has been wired like this for a long time, since way before I bought it, so 40 years of luck perhaps. I would hope that white wire is tied to ground. I do know that no one can really diagnose anything without seeing it in person. I just need to get on someone’s schedule. I imagine there is the possibility that they might have to pull a whole new line back to the sheds main panel, so I would anticipate this is going to be expensive…. The home inspector that we paid extra to inspect the pool should have caught this one, but in my experience they don’t really always catch serious issues. It’s another story but I bought a house a long time ago with a crack in the foundation that my home inspector at the time swore up and down wasn’t a structural issue. Fast forward to when we sold it and had to pay $12K to have helical peers installed….

 

[Orion7319]

Got an electrician coming tomorrow evening.

 

[Orion7319]

Had a licensed electrician come out and he got me squared away. This was a huge mess and I could have very easily gotten killed out in my shed. He replaced the GE GFCI breaker and the box for the Siemens (which I had bought already and had on hand) and got the pool pump working no problem. He thinks it was actually tripping because it was hooked up to that 40 amp breaker that I showed earlier. Well someone had plugged in all kinds of stuff directly into that 40 amp breaker including this really old and dangerous looking heater. A few of those wires we couldn’t figure out where they went, probably to the old Polaris pump and some other stuff that aren’t there anymore. All those got disconnected and capped off. Some other breakers I had didn’t seem to do anything so I had him just remove them. Now for the really scary thing we found. For some reason a live 220v line was inside that service panel that wasn’t even capped off. He took care of that for me as well. All I have to do is go buy some breaker filler plates. He does recommend that I bulldoze the shed. The best part is he only charged me $90.00. How??? I worked at a technical college on staff for 10 years of my life and I still have a few connections in various trades

 

[Orion7319]

Not pool related, but I thought some of the electricians here might enjoy seeing this 1960s oddity. I also got a quote to replace this with a modern 200amp panel. Probably going to be our next major home project.