Curious about TFP Knowledge Base

wdsheffer

Bronze Supporter
Jul 25, 2023
47
Katy, TX
Pool Size
12000
Surface
Plaster
I've read anecdote after anecdote on this site about pool guys or pool store employees doing a poor job testing water, not understanding the chemistry, and pushing potions instead of developing good practices. I have no basis on which to deny any of that, but when I'm telling other people about some website where a bunch of pool owners say the pool stores and pool guys don't know what they're talking about, the natural response is, "Why does this group of internet randoms think they know more than the experts?" Fair question, so I'm asking it here in a genuine spirit, "Why do you know more than the experts?"

Some answers that could be valid singly or in combination:
1. Years of empirical evidence gathered by members through trial and error have shown that these certain chemicals and practices yield the best results. That's not nothing, but it doesn't equip someone to speak with authority about, for example, the various chlorine compounds formed in the pool through interactions with cyanuric acid and organics or burnoff rates as a function of UV flux.

2. There are sufficient chemists, engineers, and other technically minded people in this group whose professional knowledge base and ability to review the available published literature, give them the authority to hold forth on topics that should be familiar to the "experts," but a combination of the inability to hire or train knowledgeable staff and the inability to turn a profit on inexpensive products leads them to remain willfully ignorant of that industry knowledge.

3. There is a group of mad scientists among the users at TFP who have gone beyond the published literature through original research and experimentation to more thoroughly understand the mechanisms by which pool water is sanitized and the interplay between the various chemicals in the pool water. The pool stores can't keep up with TFPC, because TFP are the experts now.

So which answer(s) is it, and is there a short list of published items in a thread somewhere that users can refer to? Or is this all such basic chemistry/organic chemistry that we can be referred to a 50 year old handbook whose validity stands unimpeachable, but unread by Leslie's employees?
 
1. Years of empirical evidence gathered by members through trial and error have shown that these certain chemicals and practices yield the best results. That's not nothing, but it doesn't equip someone to speak with authority about, for example, the various chlorine compounds formed in the pool through interactions with cyanuric acid and organics or burnoff rates as a function of UV flux.

Over 350,000+strong real life members contributing their experiences.

2. There are sufficient chemists, engineers, and other technically minded people in this group whose professional knowledge base and ability to review the available published literature, give them the authority to hold forth on topics that should be familiar to the "experts," but a combination of the inability to hire or train knowledgeable staff and the inability to turn a profit on inexpensive products leads them to remain willfully ignorant of that industry knowledge.

Those experts contributed to this area. Go take a look...



3. There is a group of mad scientists among the users at TFP who have gone beyond the published literature through original research and experimentation to more thoroughly understand the mechanisms by which pool water is sanitized and the interplay between the various chemicals in the pool water. The pool stores can't keep up with TFPC, because TFP are the experts now.

Lots of that happening in various threads and much captured in...


In summary, it is all the above. Folks can visit here and decide for themselves and try our methods. They work...

 
but unread by Leslie's employees?
Leslie's employees don't read. They TikTok. :ROFLMAO:

2 months from now, they're the 15 year old kid working retail somewhere else. And that's part of the problem.

The method they are taught in their short stint of summer work, is based upon government guidelines which haven't been updated since the 80s. Then the major players such as Bioguard fine tuned the method to sell as many chemicals as possible. You are not a customer at a large chain. You are a metric. The back wall of the employee area is full of spreadsheets highlighting your days between visits and dollars per transaction. Not you specifically, but the 'customers' that are reduced to metrics that constantly need improving.

Anecdotally, my own stores kids pushed copper based algecides on me only to ask why my copper levels were high.

The GC from the pool building side of it told me his liquid shock was 99%, with total confidence he was right. In 30+ years, he never read the bottle to see the 12.5%.

All *5* of them agreed that they'd need a water sample to know the CYA level of my fill water when CYA is not naturally found in water. Or. The store has the same fill water as me and they've had 30+ years to learn it's 0 anywhere in out town at least.

In a half day of reading here, I knew volumes more than they did. I don't tell friends because they aren't ready to listen.
 
The stories aren't anecdotal. Most of us as new pool owners have been to the pool store only to be sold lots of chemicals and the results were not great. A return to the pool store most always was a repeat performance...more chemicals suggested and still a cloudy pool. Follow the money...their goal is to sell product. In search of a better solution, the TFP method makes sense. Educate yourself and take care of your pool without the pool store and be your own pool boy (or pool woman). I find it's not worth trying to convince other pool owners to use the TFP method unless they ask me how mine looks so good. I ask them to check out troublefreepool.com and ask any questions.
 
"Why does this group of internet randoms think they know more than the experts?" Fair question, so I'm asking it here in a genuine spirit, "Why do you know more than the experts?"
What definition is given to a pool store expert? Is a summer high school student testing your pool water considered an expert? Does the manager of the pool store have a chemistry degree? Let the pool store demonstrate how they are defined as an expert in pool care other than attending a sales class or how to increase profits for the sale of products. I would like to know how many pool store employees have a degree in chemistry or similar science.
 
Why do you know more than the experts?


One of the things that I applaud @ajw22 for doing so well with the Wiki is preserving the technical details of TFPC and how our teachings are molded over the years. There’s a ton of the history that’s formed TFP’s methods that he’s linked to over the years. Many of these threads have been from “the experts” whom are very active in the pool industry, but were able to call rubbish on pool stores methods and form a better way.
 

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Rest assured I’m not trying to be rudely confrontational or to cast aspersions on anyone’s motives or expertise. I simply don’t want to be overly credulous when reading websites like this (as I tend to) so this is kind of like asking the doctor where he went to med school or did his residency.

I appreciate all the answers. There’s so much information on this site, and I’ve only scratched the surface. It wouldn’t exactly be practical to pore through thousands of threads looking for citations, but @ajw22 ’s pointer to The Deep End seems like an apt resource. And I completely missed that there was a Wiki. Thanks, @Leebo, I’ll be hitting that.
 
The method they are taught in their short stint of summer work, is based upon government guidelines which haven't been updated since the 80s.
So is there an updated body of literature outside of TFP, or are you the vanguard?

Sorry, that’s reads a little sarcastic, but I mean literally, is TFP the vanguard.
 
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The stories aren't anecdotal. Most of us as new pool owners have been to the pool store only to be sold lots of chemicals and the results were not great.
Again, not trying to disparage, but that is precisely anecdotal. But anecdotes are valuable, they point to where research is needed. I don’t want to take away from that. Just wondering about the body of research.
 
The same could be said about Pool Stores.. What training, or experience, has made them "experts"??? Sales training does not count.
That’s true, and I don’t expect sales clerks to be experts in much of anything. The company that formulated the recommendations is a different story. If they are going to hold themselves as the experts and I’m going to go counterculture, I want to be sure I know why.
 
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Tell those "other people" that we welcome them with open arms and gladly encourage them to try any aspect of what this forum teaches and to challenge it.
To be quite honest, the first “other person” I mentioned it to was my wife. She has not tried to fight me on it, but she’s a smart lady and immediately wondered what kind of cult pamphlet I was reading, lol.
 
So is there an updated body of literature outside of TFP, or are you the vanguard?
There are a number of individuals that contributed to the TFP work over multiple years.

When I was "Pool Stored" and taken for $1500, and left with a green pool, I started researching. I figured an A+ in AP chem, I can figure this out. I did, but not on my own!

After lots of CDC research, it was clear to me, no one would share the actual chemistry, or they actually had it incorrect.

One of the foundational papers on the relationship cyanurates can be found here (1974):

Richard Falk and others pioneered more work and research on the chemistry. It is all here:

Posts 1-5 convinced me. The chemistry is correct.

I think the CDC and the pool industry are way behind the chemistry. I might also posit that there are powerful players that make big $$ of pool chemicals, and a large industry of pool stores dependent on these recommendations. I don't think it will change anytime soon.

While Richard is no longer here, he is a stalwart in the industry and has worked to change the understanding and guidance with respect to pool chemistry. I wish him luck, but he has a hard row to hoe...
 
And I completely missed that there was a Wiki
It's in the quick navagation section at the bottom of any page. (y)


So is there an updated body of literature outside of TFP,
That's exactly the problem. We evolved with the science that the government didn't care to include in its guidelines. Then we had 17 years and 1/3 of a million folks to road test it and report what worked best in each climate/locale.

The industry has zero desire to change because they have a cash cow going, so they won't be lobbying for it to say the least.
But anecdotes are valuable, they point to where research is needed
Exactly. We have all read 1000, or 10,000 posts about people being 'poolstored'. Not phony bots or paid reviews mind you. Actual real world members. If you see enough folks posts all saying the same thing about the testing inaccuracies and the horrible advice, you can't deny the link at some point. What's funny is the original posts from 17 years ago have the *exact* same newbs coming in on the daily. And 17 years later it's the same struggle to convince each and every one of them that we know what they've been through and have a better way.
 
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'poolstored'
season 6 boating buddies GIF by SpongeBob SquarePants


The struggle is real.
 

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