Bullfrog A7 getting heater may be dry, heater too hot after running for ~20 minutes, shuts down

[Venicetub]

Hi there,

I have a 2016 Bullfrog A7. Here's what's going on:

• Running the tub with both pumps running full speed for about 20 minutes is resulting in "Heater may be dry (28)" and "Heater is too hot (30)"
• The tub shuts down and I am unable to turn the jets back on
• This happens usually to one jet or the other, but sometimes happens to both of them. The thermostat on the screen also reads 109 degrees (it's not that hot, I am in the tub when this happens)
• The repair guy repaired the sensors and we tested it and it worked (of course) while he was there
• However, it's clear that both the pumps were getting way too hot (when the door is on you can smell it getting hot in there)
• Bullfrog says to replace the entire control board which of course I would like to avoid and also I am not sure how that would help if the pumps are getting too hot
• The filters are brand new...

Anyone have any ideas? Thank you so much... really trying to enjoy my new tub...

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

Let’s see what ideas @RDspaguy has when he wanders by.

You say the tub is new. Did you buy a used tub? From a store or another owner?

 

[RDspaguy]

Post pics of equipment area, circuit board, and wiring diagram so I can see what's in there. Include voltage ratings of all pumps. The brand and model of controls determines operation, and I'm unsure what's in that one. I think they used balboa.
High heater temps are usually a result of low flow through the heater, often caused by a dirty or old filter. This could also cause a dry error (which it is also using the temp sensors to determine). Remove filter and see if it clears up. If so, replace filter.
The fact that it only occurs when pumps are running, and is not specific to one pump, complicates the issue. This should be unrelated to the jet pumps, especially jet2.

it's clear that both the pumps were getting way too hot (when the door is on you can smell it getting hot in there)

That does not mean it's the pumps. You could be smelling overheating electronic components on your circuit board. Do you have any evidence that it's the pumps getting hot, or is that just your assumption?
Check circuit board for heat damage.

 

[Venicetub]

Thanks for your response. The repairman touched them and they were "very hot" according to him. The circuit board is fine.

Yep - both pumps get hot, but only when the circulation / filter pump gets hot does it throw the error message and turn off. Otherwise pump 2 will just turn off. They then take hours to be able to be used again.

The filters are new. I can try to take the filters out and run it again to reproduce the error. Is that what you're suggesting?

The components are as follows:

- Balboa BFBP20, Domestic 2013
- 2.5HP 240V Pump 60Hz 2 speed

 

[Venicetub]

Welcome to TFP.

Let’s see what ideas @RDspaguy has when he wanders by.

You say the tub is new. Did you buy a used tub? From a store or another owner?

It's a used tub from another owner.

 

[RDspaguy]

The repairman touched them and they were "very hot"

Ok. An experienced tech can tell if a motor is "very hot" by touch with a fair degree of reliability. However, the odds of it happening simultaneously on both pumps is extremely slim unless something is causing it. Frankly, it's rare at all as you describe it. That does not mean it can't happen, it just means I'd make absolutely certain BEFORE dropping big$ on two new pumps. Not that it's a bad investment in your new used spa anyway.

The circuit board is fine.

Your optimism is admirable. If I were there, I'd first (after removing the filter) be testing voltage to the motor when it happens to verify that it is in fact a motor issue. If the motor stops but the power is on at the board then it's in the motor, but if not it's the board, programming, or a safety component.

both pumps get hot, but only when the circulation / filter pump gets hot does it throw the error message and turn off. Otherwise pump 2 will just turn off. They then take hours to be able to be used again.

Ok. That makes alot more sense, and does suggest a possible thermal cutout, though those usually reset in a matter of minutes not hours. But I still suspect there to be a cause if it's happening to both. Specifically, I suspect the pumps to be wired at the wrong voltage. Pictures of the circuit board and wiring diagram for your tub would answer that, and several other, questions. It's hard enough to do this via internet by text in my spare time, but without pics I'm guessing. So...

Post pics of equipment area, circuit board, and wiring diagram

The filters are new. I can try to take the filters out and run it again to reproduce the error. Is that what you're suggesting?

Yes. Even with new filters, removing them can at least isolate this as a flow issue if it suddenly starts working. Plus, we may not have the same definition for the word "new". I hear that alot about 2 month dirty filters (which could account for your issues from the details you have provided), so I am still on the fence about yours. Nothing personal, but after 26 years at this, I know what people say compared to what I often find when I get there. "New filter" is second only to "well maintained" in the customer mis-information category.
I can't understand it, as it costs $100 to get me in the driveway and another to get me out of my truck for an hour, and I'm happy to offer advice on simple things to try before booking a repair. Nothing I hate more than charging $200 to hose off a filter or reset a breaker, but it happens alot. (Ok, honestly I usually waive the hour minimum , but even $100 hurts for 5 minutes with a hose.)
Sorry, it's late and I'm rambling...

Balboa BFBP20, Domestic 2013
- 2.5HP 240V Pump 60Hz 2 speed

Is this from paperwork or the actual equipment labels in the spa?
The "BF" stands for "Bullfrog", making this a proprietary system unlike standard balboa models in some way. I am not familiar with the details of this system.

 

[Venicetub]

Thanks for your help on this...

Filters were replaced at beginning of January... also problem persisted with old filters too. I would for it to be filters... do you suggest I remove the filters and run at high speed to see if error still happens? Do I run risk of clogging the line if running at high speed without the filters in there?

Here are the other photos you requested:

 

[RDspaguy]

you suggest I remove the filters and run at high speed to see if error still happens?

For the third time, yes.

Do I run risk of clogging the line if running at high speed without the filters in there?

Do you have a bunch of stuff floating around in your tub?
Why is it so incredibly dirty in there? Was it in a flood?

 

[Venicetub]

Okay - went back and did some testing.

Test 1:
- Filters REMOVED
- Equipment door removed (resting against front panel)
- Heater not on
- Both circulation / heater pump (pump 1) and pump ran at full speed for about 30 minutes. Shut off and were able to be powered back on - seems to be ideal behavior
- No error message

Test 2:
- Filters cleaned and re-installed
- Equipment door removed (resting against front panel)
- Heater on
- Both pump 1 and pump 2 running at full speed
- Pump 2 stopped around 20 minutes and unable to be turned back on even though topside indicates it's on. When trying to turn back on here clicks, but no circulation
- Pump 1 full speed stopped at 30 minutes but low speed still worked, was able to be turned back to high speed
- No error messages
- Temperature reading started increasing to 105

So in this case it looks like Pump 2 got tripped / overheated and not Pump 1, but Pump 2 is unable to be turned back on. Topside indicates it should be running.

Update:
- After about 1 hour the tub still says 105
- Pump 2 is able to be turned back on now (seems like cool off period is somewhere around 60 minutes)

 

[RDspaguy]

So, opening the equipment area caused improvement?
That is one of the dirtiest equipment bays I have ever seen. Motors are cooled by a fan in the front. If that dirt is coating the blades and was blown into the motor to coat the coils it could cause overheating and extend cool-down time. With hot ambient air temp to begin with, as with it closed up, it would overheat faster. Do you have an air compressor? You could try blowing it out through the motor vents, it might do the trick. If you see a cloud of dust blow out you might bring them to an electric motor shop for a good cleaning and new bearings and seal. Much cheaper than buying new pumps.

 

[Venicetub]

Not completely. Pump 2 still shut off with the equipment door open and when the heater was on.

So based on this we don’t think it’s the filters or incorrect voltage to the pumps?

I have an electrical blower. Not sure it is as concentrated as an air compressor, but I may be able to get my hands on one. So use that to just spray into the parts and see if there’s dust in there?

 

[RDspaguy]

So based on this we don’t think it’s the filters or incorrect voltage to the pumps?

Filters could be a contributing factor, any flow restriction will result in increased heat from the motor, but I don't think it's the deciding factor. I'm not even sure if pump2 is filtered, it's not on most brands. It appears to be wired correctly, though it is difficult to see the pump common (white) wire connection due to all the wires there.

use that to just spray into the parts and see if there’s dust in there?

Yep. If you blow a bunch of dust out it might solve the problem, or not, and could be the cause that I suspected was there as soon as I heard both motors were effected. The odds of two different pumps, one of which runs ALOT and the other almost never, going out simultaneously is just too slim. Something is not right. And that is among the dirtiest equipment areas I have seen in 26 years in this business. I can't say for certain, but I strongly suspect it's related.

 

[bradgray]

While I am not as scholared as RD, 70% of our spas are Bullfrog and we've seen the issue you're describing in various forms.

• Running the tub with both pumps running full speed for about 20 minutes is resulting in "Heater may be dry (28)" and "Heater is too hot (30)"

As RD said, this is usually indicative of poor/no flow. The 2 temp sensors look for discrepancies between them to confirm normal operation. If they detect temps around 120, they'll fault as "heater dry, or OHH"

The tub shuts down and I am unable to turn the jets back on

I may have missed it, but have you tried power cycling? A simple "heater dry/OH" error can be cleared and tried again with a power cycle. But a pump that has physically tripped it's thermal switch will not try to come back on at all until it has cooled. Even after a power-reset, all you'll hear is a simple "click" of the relay.

This happens usually to one jet or the other, but sometimes happens to both of them. The thermostat on the screen also reads 109 degrees (it's not that hot, I am in the tub when this happens)

If flow is an issue, it should only happen to your filtration pump. Your 2nd pump has it's own loop and it doesn't run through the heater tube. Also, 109 may be the water temp at the sensors, but not your main basin temp. If both are actually overheating, that is informational.

The repair guy repaired the sensors and we tested it and it worked (of course) while he was there

I'm inclined to agree these are not the issue.

However, it's clear that both the pumps were getting way too hot (when the door is on you can smell it getting hot in there)

The Aquaflo pumps do seem to run hotter in the Bullfrog enclosures than the aftermarket pumps we've installed. We regularly smell what you describe and it has even assisted in raising the cabinet temp to the degree of warping panels near the pumps. We've had several pumps replaced under warranty because they "ran too hot" according to the dealer, and the new pump would do the same thing and hit the same temps when read by an IR gun; knocking on 300F.

Bullfrog says to replace the entire control board which of course I would like to avoid and also I am not sure how that would help if the pumps are getting too hot
The filters are brand new...

We've had this done several times on Tropic Seas Spas. Which use the same Balboa parts most BF do, and it solved the issue of pumps shutting off abruptly and refusing to come back on. However, you've described some additional symptoms that may not fit this scenario.

 

[bradgray]

Just for kick and giggles, can you send a photo of your dip-switches?
It's the red colored block behind the wire.

 

[bradgray]

Okay - went back and did some testing.

Test 1:
- Filters REMOVED
- Equipment door removed (resting against front panel)
- Heater not on
- Both circulation / heater pump (pump 1) and pump ran at full speed for about 30 minutes. Shut off and were able to be powered back on - seems to be ideal behavior
- No error message

Can you run Test 1 again? If it's the board, it could be intermittent. It is ideal behavior, but you may have gotten lucky.

Test 2:
- Filters cleaned and re-installed
- Equipment door removed (resting against front panel)
- Heater on

You changed too many variables with Test 2: Filter + Heater. Try not engaging your heater (set a low temp) next time.

- Pump 2 stopped around 20 minutes and unable to be turned back on even though topside indicates it's on. When trying to turn back on here clicks, but no circulation

If stopped at 20, that's indeed early. Clicks are from the relay opening and closing the pump circuit. It would be informative to see if there is current being sent to the pump terminals during the relay action. Do you have a multimeter and a helper? If voltage is absent when open, this would indicate board issue. I'm inclined to rule this out first. I've always diagnosed equipment under the mantra "where the power stops, the problem starts".

- Pump 1 full speed stopped at 30 minutes but low speed still worked, was able to be turned back to high speed

This is normal. High speed will time out at 30 minutes. Low speed is set to 1 hour for your pack. This is the pump that would most likely be unhappy with flow restriction.

At this point I believe RD and I have equally possible theories:
- Your pump/s are overheating. This would be from: 1) suffocation/resistance, 2) poor ventilation, 3) improper voltage
- Your PCB is failing

P.S. Have you checked the return jets in your spa? Are they free-flowing at the most open positions? I.E. are you creating any resistance on the pump by trying to consolidate the jet pressure into a few nozzles? Open any diverters to "both" positions.

 

[RDspaguy]

The Aquaflo pumps do seem to run hotter in the Bullfrog enclosures than the aftermarket pumps we've installed. We regularly smell what you describe and it has even assisted in raising the cabinet temp to the degree of warping panels near the pumps. We've had several pumps replaced under warranty because they "ran too hot" according to the dealer, and the new pump would do the same thing and hit the same temps when read by an IR gun; knocking on 300F.

Interesting. These Aqua-flo pumps are using US motor, which is not always the case. I wonder if it's the same with other motors on the aqua-flo wet-end.
Warping panels is pretty extreme, and high ambient temps can and do cause all kinds problems with circuit boards.
If this is a recurring issue for these tubs then different motors may be the solution, or perhaps a lower hp which would run cooler on a given plumbing system.
Good to know. Thanks!

 

[bradgray]

Interesting. These Aqua-flo pumps are using US motor, which is not always the case. I wonder if it's the same with other motors on the aqua-flo wet-end.
Warping panels is pretty extreme, and high ambient temps can and do cause all kinds problems with circuit boards.
If this is a recurring issue for these tubs then different motors may be the solution, or perhaps a lower hp which would run cooler on a given plumbing system.
Good to know. Thanks!

Yes, it definitely seems to be the US motor. The Waterway and even the cheap LX pumps run cooler, though not a ton. But our spas also run during the middle of summer, when our outdoor ambient temps are easily 110+ for several months of the year .. so we've always blamed compounding heat issues. As far as the Bullfrog panels, they warp from anything slightly warm. So this is probably more a statement of the panel than the motors

Semi-related, the Arctic Spa brand has a similar issue; much too warmth trapped within the cabinet and pumps will overheat. Why people would even buy a brand named "Arctic Spa" for use in the mojave desert, I'll never know! Kidding aside, they make simpler models and they're a fine spa, but we have several wood-cabinet Arctic Spas that we had to manually Louvre the panels for.

 

[Venicetub]

Filters could be a contributing factor, any flow restriction will result in increased heat from the motor, but I don't think it's the deciding factor. I'm not even sure if pump2 is filtered, it's not on most brands. It appears to be wired correctly, though it is difficult to see the pump common (white) wire connection due to all the wires there.


Yep. If you blow a bunch of dust out it might solve the problem, or not, and could be the cause that I suspected was there as soon as I heard both motors were effected. The odds of two different pumps, one of which runs ALOT and the other almost never, going out simultaneously is just too slim. Something is not right. And that is among the dirtiest equipment areas I have seen in 26 years in this business. I can't say for certain, but I strongly suspect it's related.

Will try. Any other tips on how to clean

Yes, it definitely seems to be the US motor. The Waterway and even the cheap LX pumps run cooler, though not a ton. But our spas also run during the middle of summer, when our outdoor ambient temps are easily 110+ for several months of the year .. so we've always blamed compounding heat issues. As far as the Bullfrog panels, they warp from anything slightly warm. So this is probably more a statement of the panel than the motors

Semi-related, the Arctic Spa brand has a similar issue; much too warmth trapped within the cabinet and pumps will overheat. Why people would even buy a brand named "Arctic Spa" for use in the mojave desert, I'll never know! Kidding aside, they make simpler models and they're a fine spa, but we have several wood-cabinet Arctic Spas that we had to manually Louvre the panels for.

Can you run Test 1 again? If it's the board, it could be intermittent. It is ideal behavior, but you may have gotten lucky.

You changed too many variables with Test 2: Filter + Heater. Try not engaging your heater (set a low temp) next time.

If stopped at 20, that's indeed early. Clicks are from the relay opening and closing the pump circuit. It would be informative to see if there is current being sent to the pump terminals during the relay action. Do you have a multimeter and a helper? If voltage is absent when open, this would indicate board issue. I'm inclined to rule this out first. I've always diagnosed equipment under the mantra "where the power stops, the problem starts".

This is normal. High speed will time out at 30 minutes. Low speed is set to 1 hour for your pack. This is the pump that would most likely be unhappy with flow restriction.

At this point I believe RD and I have equally possible theories:
- Your pump/s are overheating. This would be from: 1) suffocation/resistance, 2) poor ventilation, 3) improper voltage
- Your PCB is failing

P.S. Have you checked the return jets in your spa? Are they free-flowing at the most open positions? I.E. are you creating any resistance on the pump by trying to consolidate the jet pressure into a few nozzles? Open any diverters to "both" positions.

I have a voltmeter yes…

So what are my next steps? Should I try to blow air into the pumps?

 

[RDspaguy]

Will try. Any other tips on how to clean


I have a voltmeter yes…

So what are my next steps? Should I try to blow air into the pumps?

It's worth a try, but it's sounding like you may have to replace those motors anyway if this is a known bullfrog issue. If you're mechanically inclined you can pull that motor apart yourself to clean it. There are numerous videos online.
I'd do the voltage test too, just to be sure. High temps can make circuit boards act very strange.

 

[Venicetub]

It's worth a try, but it's sounding like you may have to replace those motors anyway if this is a known bullfrog issue. If you're mechanically inclined you can pull that motor apart yourself to clean it. There are numerous videos online.
I'd do the voltage test too, just to be sure. High temps can make circuit boards act very strange.

Do you mind providing the instructions on which part to test?

Also BradGray - "We've had this done several times on Tropic Seas Spas. Which use the same Balboa parts most BF do, and it solved the issue of pumps shutting off abruptly and refusing to come back on. However, you've described some additional symptoms that may not fit this scenario."

What were the additional symptoms?

Just completed another test:

- Tried using air compressor but it didn't look like any dust was moving around anywhere
- Equipment door completely removed / full ventilation of panel area
- Heater off
- Both pumps running

It worked fine... shut off after 30 minutes. Was able to put jets back on...