Breaker tripping after adding Aquarite SWG

[Yarrbossa]

Hello all! This place has been a great resource in the past, and I'm hoping for some more advice regarding electrical wiring. I'm posting mostly to get a second opinion and make sure my thinking is correct and that I'm not missing any obvious options or things to check. Last summer I had no issues with the electrical at all. The only thing wired on the breaker was the pool light and the pump (single speed 1.5HP).

The current electrical is run from the breaker box in the house. It's wired for 120v on a 20A GFCI breaker. This summer I decided I wanted to install a SWG, so I did some research, bought the thing and got it all installed correctly. I ended up redoing all of the wiring in the pool shed to accommodate the SWG and clean things up from the previous owner (and things like an outdoor outlet was literally rusted into pieces so that had to be replaced. I put a GFCI outlet here for good measure since all the electrical from the pool shed goes through here). I got everything wired up using 12g (to match what was already run) and everything passes a basic smoke test. To recap, all I added was the Aquarite SWG and a fluorescent light. The SWG box lights up, but I haven't connected the cell or flow switch yet because we're still in the process of opening the pool. I've attached a diagram below showing the current wiring setup.

Now to the problem. The pump will turn on and run for at least several hours (i haven't been able to pin down how long yet) and then the breaker will get tripped. I didn't have issues when opening the pool doing things like vacuuming out the pool or having it recirculate while I skimmed and brushed the pool. But when I woke up the next morning the breaker was tripped. The following morning, I flipped the breaker and it all turned on correctly and ran as expected while I was getting ready in the morning. Whenever I came home from work, it was tripped again. I repeated this process several times (because we're in the process of opening the pool) and started doing research today.

I haven't checked the physical pump yet, but it seems from looking at similar models that it's likely that my pump is drawing around 19A, which explains why it might sometimes be tripping if the SWG (even in it's "Off" state) is drawing just enough to trip it (I imagine this will get worse whenever the SWG is actually on and working). I'm trying to figure out the most reasonable solution.

Here are the possible solutions I've managed to come up with and I'd welcome any additional thoughts for things I haven't considered.

1. Swap the 20A breaker out for a 30A breaker, but then my 12g wire isn't thick enough to be up to code, so I'd need to rerun the entire stretch to be 10g instead. Tedious, but doable.
2. Swap the 120/20A breaker out for a 240/20A breaker and run 12/3 wire the entire stretch to the pool shed and rewire everything to be 240 instead of 120
3. Have someone come out and install a breaker box in the pool shed and rewire everything from there appropriately. This is probably the most "future proof" option in case I decide I want to add something else in the future, although I don't have any plans to anytime soon, but it's also likely to be the most expensive because I would want to have an electrician do something that major.
4. Run a separate run off another 120/20A to the pool shed. This is the least desirable because I'd like the pump and SWG to be on the same timer, and I don't think that a timer will accommodate a setup like this, but i'm putting it here for completeness.

Is there something I'm missing along the way that could be causing this breaker to be tripped randomly after several hours of operation? Unless I'm missing something obvious that I haven't checked yet, I'm leaning towards option 1. It would be super tedious to do and I'm not sure what to do about the 12g wiring for the pool light (because I can't access that part under the concrete deck) but it requires just rewiring existing things to a lower gauge which is well within my capabilities.

Thoughts? Thank you in advance for reading.

 

[PoolGate]

It sounds for sure like it is overloaded. If it was me, I would go with a new, remote breaker box (subpanel) and run 30 amp 220 volt service out. If you can run a line and hook it up on both ends, you can wire the box. There isn't anything hard about it.

For the interim, breakers do wear out and if it is close on load, you might get by just replacing the breaker that is tripping with a new one of the same type/size.

 

[Yarrbossa]

Thanks for the advice.

A few more things I've learned. Because I have a timer, I realized I could use it to time how long it runs before shutting off. I ended up turning it on/off 3 times yesterday and every time it was around an hour each time.

I also learned that the pump is 16A not 19A as I had guesstimated. So with the Aquarite T-15 cell which draws anywhere from 3-8A so I'm looking around 24-25A given most things on the same run. So close, yet that little bit is probably gonna cost me dearly.

I've reached out to an electrician, although I might swing by my local permit office since I've heard they are helpful with advising projects like this. The electrician I talked to said he was backed up 4-6 weeks for projects, and my kids aren't going to wait that long to swim. I'll call around to others to figure out what can be done in the interim while waiting for a permanent solution.

Such a small thing, yet the scope of "just installing a SWG" has drastically blown up. Yay for home ownership!

 

[jimmythegreek]

whats the pipe size of the buried conduit? you can probably just add another 12ga hot wire and pull it thru the existing conduit with the ground wire or fish tape it with some lube (sold in electrical aisle at big boxes) and then share the nuetral and ground you already have and add a second 20amp breaker and you would be all set. not very hard to do esp the fact you have a Jbox midway of the conduit feed. If you take some pics of main box and above ground conduit and want to attempt I can walk u thru it

you do NOT want to put a 30amp breaker on that feed, just not safe at all and the wire being in conduit gets extra hot it has nowhere to dissipate the heat, if you ever had a problem or meltdown/fire you would not be covered

 

[Yarrbossa]

That's actually not a bad idea. I'll have to figure out where to put the extra breaker (I have a full box currently, which contains the current pool breaker, and a 60A subpanel off of that that's have relatively minor load things currently wired to it (a single outlet, but plans for a couple more outlets and overhead lights for the future), but that might actually be the easiest way to get 240 out there without completely rerunning everything. You've given me another option to think over, so thank you.

 

[kefjens]

Do not share neutrals between two circuits, it is not safe.

 

[PoolGate]

Do not share neutrals between two circuits, it is not safe.

I have heard this before but never understood why since they are all tied together anyway on a common neutral bar frequently with a common ground also tied in with the neutral bar. Is it total amperage? A 220 volt circuit has 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground. He has everything now accept the extra hot.

If you go this route just make sure you use the proper sized wire and personally I would treat it as a 220 and wire it back at your main panel on a 220 volt breaker. If you plan on running any 220 volt equipment, it needs the ability to break the entire 220 volt circuit (both hots) and not just 1 of them as could happen if they are not physically tied together. You can easily replace your pool equipment breaker box with a larger box that can accommodate more circuits.

 

[Ralph III]

Hello OP,

You're not giving enough details to make any real recommendations. Irrespective, use whatever advice given at your own risk.


1. I'd check how many amps you are pulling on that circuit prior to changing anything. It makes no sense to throw solutions at a problem when you do not even know what the problem is.

If you were not actually running the SWG and Cell; then I doubt you added any draw to the circuit. So there must be something else causing your breaker to trip.

2. When a motor begins to fail it may begin to draw even more amps and/or overheat, in which case that could cause a breaker to trip. If your motor runs fine for several hours before tripping, my first inclination would be that it is possibly overheating. You need to get details on your pump and what it's normal "startup" and "operating" amps should be.

3. If the pump sounds fine, runs fine and is operating within specs; then you may have a breaker that is failing or you've developed an electrical issue of some sort. I'd insure everything is lugged down tightly at all terminals and at the breaker. If it keeps tripping I'd replace the breaker.

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In regards to permanent solutions.


4. You could just run an extra circuit or two. BTW, the NEC allows you to share a neutral so nothing is wrong with that. It is done all the time. However, it has to meet certain criteria. If you are not sure what that is then just run a ground and neutral for each circuit and don't sweat it. It's always better to be safe than sorry. Consider running individual color coded stranded wire, btw. It is much easier to pull through conduit.

5. If an additional circuit doesn't meet your future needs then have a subpanel installed, as suggested. If an extra circuit or two would suffice for future needs though and you had breaker spots for them; I'd just go that route versus the cost and time of the subpanel.


Ralph​

 

[Yarrbossa]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I've decided to unhook the SWG while I figure out the permanent solution. After unhooking it (so only the timer is en route), it still keeps tripping on nearly an hour exactly. The whole "trips close to or exactly at an hour" makes me think something is goofy with the timer or how it's wired. Tomorrow I'm going to remove the timer and rewire the circuit as it was before to try and isolate if that particular breaker is beginning to fault out (apparently GFCI breakers are notoriously finicky when they are going bad) or if something is wrong with the timer or the pump itself.

For the long term solution, I talked to the city inspector while looking to get a permit and he suggested to run a new 30A/240v subpanel off my panel inside out to the pool shed, then run individual 120 GFCI breakers to the pump and the SWG and whatever else is there (lights, outlets, etc). The current 120 run I'll just cap off after it connects to the pool light (rather than continuing onto the shed as it currently does), rather than trying to mess with that at this point in time. Good for future proofing and doing any rewiring in the future, including converting things in the pool shed to 240 at some point.

At this point, I really just want to get my pump able to run continuously so I can finish SLAMing my pool and let the kids swim while I get all the electrical in place, finish inspections, etc. With the pump only running 1-2 hours a day it's been impossible to get it clear. It's blue, but that's about as good as it's been getting. So I'm making that my priority to get the pump running, then I'll feel less rushed to get the wiring done before the pool can be finished opening.

 

[Yarrbossa]

I'm posting an update here just for anyone who's looking at this thread in the future wondering how I ended up resolving this situation (as I frequently find myself doing).

I ended up running a 240v/30a line using 8 gauge wire out to the pool shed and installing a subpanel in the shed. Ran conduit outside and pulled about 120' of 8 gauge wire through (which was nightmarish), then ran another 80' inside the house. I ended up breaking everything out to it's own breaker as recommended, running pump/SWG through a DPST timer. I was really worried about being in over my head after I came home with all the materials, but the next day I just started doing it one piece at a time and ended up having no major issues along the way.

Everything is working as intended, although now I'm dealing with a separate issue with the pump GFCI breaker which I'm going to make a completely new post about.

Thanks for the help everyone. One big headache down, and I feel super accomplished having it all done.

 

[JamesW]

The whole "trips close to or exactly at an hour" makes me think something is goofy with the timer or how it's wired.

Most likely, the circuit was overloaded somewhere between 101% and 134%. At 101% to 134% the breaker might not trip or could take over an hour to trip.

A circuit breaker does not have to trip unless the amperage gets to at least 135% of the rated ampacity of the breaker. Even then, it can take up to an hour to trip at 135%.

For overloads, the thermal element trip time is based on the square of the current. At 105% overload, the time to trip will be significantly longer than at 130% overload. At 105% overload, the breaker might not trip at all.

The basic circuit breaker used in both residential and light commercial applications is called the T-M or Thermal Magnetic Circuit Breaker. Another term that is sometimes used is the MCCB, or MoldedCase Circuit Breaker.

The T-M circuit breaker has two independent trip mechanisms: thermal and magnetic. The former reacts to overloads and causes the breaker to trip, while the latter responds to short circuit fault currents.

The first (and most common) misconception is that a breaker trips when its nameplate rating is exceeded.

A 20 amp breaker must trip at a sustained current of 27 amperes (135 percent) at less than one hour, and at 40 amperes (200 percent of wire rating) in less than 120 seconds—far different from what the cited text implies. These two trip points (135 percent and 200 percent) are defined in NEMA Standard AB-1, MCCBs and Molded Case Switches.

The thermal portion of the circuit breaker works by use of a bi-metallic strip which causes a spring-loaded latch to release and trip the breaker. The deflection of the bi-metallic strip depends on the temperature, thus the breaker has a trip temperature and it is the heat generated within the breaker that causes the temperature to rise, the faster the heat rise, the faster the breaker reaches temperature and trips. Heat is directly proportional to the power (watts), which is proportional to the square of the current (P=I² x R)

https://goodsonengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CircuitBreakerMyths_web.pdf

If you’re changing the voltage, make sure to change the voltage settings in the equipment to match.

What pump do you have? If it’s pulling in excess of 20 amps, then it’s going to be about 2,400 watts. Also, if the pump is drawing substantially more than nameplate amps, it’s probably close to failing and I would suspect that it’s probably overheating and getting really hot.

It’s probably worth considering getting a new pump. A two speed or variable speed is a good choice from a power (money) savings point of view and from a sound point of view.

Single speed pumps are very noisy. A two speed on low or a variable speed on lower speeds is very quiet.

Note: The AquaRite draws about 1 amp at 240 volts and about 2 amps at 120 volts. The higher amperage shown at the cell is low voltage and does not correspond to amperage draw at the supply.

 

[Propbndr]

It does sounds like you were over loading the pannel. For future reference, you could have had a breaker that is going bad. Occasional tripping that gets more often over time is a symptom of that. Breakers do get “weak” over time. Unfortunately, it is also a symptom of a motor that is going bad.

In your earlier post you mentioned having a gfci breaker and then installing a gfci outlet. That is a no-no that many people do not know about. If two gfci devices are in the same circuit, whether they are outlets wire daisy changed together or an gfci outlet in the circuit with a gfci breaker, they can prevent each other from working properly. If two or more are in the circuit one of three things can happen: 1) both COULD work correctly! 2) neither will work as designed and, 3) one will continuously trip. The problem is, unless one of them keeps tripping, you never know which of the other two is going to happen. They MAY work fine today but, may not work tomorrow. The test button will not tell you anything about this issue.

Not to toot my own horn but , I worked with my local power company for 31 years (22 of which was as an instructor). The gfci issue is one subject that was required training prior to every plant outage for the installation of temporary power.

 

[mgarf33]

Why #8 wire? #10 will supply 30A no problem. Also like another advised your SWCG draws 3-8A at 24-29v NOT 120v, it utilizes an internal step down transformer.
Also your motor is internally protected. Not always, but it will typically trip the internal OL before tripping breaker due to high current.

As other's have stated, I too believe you should be replacing the breaker. You can purchase a current clamp digital multimeter for less than the cost of a proper GFCI breaker. I would have started there, and checked the circuit's current draw with all appliances in operation.

I would have gone with the #10 3 wire with ground and a sub panel. Otherwise, I'm not sure how you're powering the light with 230v. You CANNOT use a ground for neutral. Of course, I hope you didn't use NM-B cable as it is not for use in wet locations.

 

[Yarrbossa]

I thought I mentioned this above, but looking back I missed it. Before I did anything else I replaced the GFCI breaker that was initially troubling and it still was tripping regularly, like before.

I was recommended 8 gauge because of the length (200~ feet). I was told it wouldn't do any harm, other than being a bit more expensive.

The other issue I mentioned above is because even after all this work (which I think was definitely a good move, it helped me isolate the pool components onto their own GFCI breakers and give me a panel on the shed for any additions in the future) the new GFCI breaker in the pool shed connected to the pump (through a timer) is still tripping!

However, reading JamesW post above brings up the pump as possibly going bad, which I think is the becoming the more likely case. It's running really hot, as in I can barely touch it for more than a couple seconds. It could also be the GFCI breaker because it's not Seimens brand, but something that only fits in the homeline panel I bought (which I find incredibly irritating since Seimens brand GFCI breaker is the one most recommended here), but im leaning more towards the pump going bad at this rate. The breaker might still be a problem long term and I'll have to figure out what to do since I can't use a Seimens brand breaker in this box (there's some additional metal tab on the bus that prevents the Seimens breaker from attaching), but maybe thats a road I should cross when it becomes an issue. Surely people run pumps off other breakers without much issue....right? Should I bother with a variable speed pump since those seem to have more issues with grci breakers than single speed (just from browsing GFCI threads here anyways)? Or is that just some bias from reading threads here for the past month?

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

 

[Propbndr]

The Semins breaker does fit but of course, it is not on the list of approved replacements by Square-D. If you were to sell your house, a home inspector (one that is worth their salt) will point it out as a concern.

Given what you are saying about the motor temperature, it is probably on it’s last legs. When you ran your 240 volt service, are you sure that you wired the motor up for the correct voltage? Wiring a motor that is jumpered for 120 volts to 240 will take it out pretty quick.

 

[Yarrbossa]

I also want to clarify that I ran 240 out to a breaker box, but the pump and swg are wired on 120 breakers in that box, as is the light. Some comments above make me think you guys thought I wired everything up 240, which is totally not the case. Everything was 120 before, so I kept the same setup. I just ran the 240 to the breaker box and split into 120 breakers from there.

I had assumed the pump was wired for 120 correctly since it's been this way for years, but it can't hurt to double check things just to be sure.

Also, this Seimens breaker def won't fit in this box. I'll have to take pictures to show why, but there's a metal tab on the bus in the breaker box which physically prevents the Seimens breaker from fitting. To force it you either have to clip away pieces of the Seimens breaker back to make room for the additional metal tab or grind/cut off the metal tab, both of which are not options that are gonna happen.

I'll look into a new pump since a lot of signs are pointing towards a faulty pump. Should I order one locally or buy it online? Do I also need to replace the whole impeller housing with a new pump or is it alright to just swap out the pump motor?

 

[Propbndr]

I would look into just replacing the motor. Mine went bad last year and that is what I did. Much cheaper than a whole pump replacement. Your motor should have a name plate with the motor model number on it. If you go that route, check the pump seal for any signs of leakage. They are easy to replace also if needed. Any leakage from it will eventually destroy the inboard motor bearing.

 

[PoolGate]

I also want to clarify that I ran 240 out to a breaker box, but the pump and swg are wired on 120 breakers in that box, as is the light. Some comments above make me think you guys thought I wired everything up 240, which is totally not the case. Everything was 120 before, so I kept the same setup. I just ran the 240 to the breaker box and split into 120 breakers from there.

I had assumed the pump was wired for 120 correctly since it's been this way for years, but it can't hurt to double check things just to be sure.

Also, this Seimens breaker def won't fit in this box. I'll have to take pictures to show why, but there's a metal tab on the bus in the breaker box which physically prevents the Seimens breaker from fitting. To force it you either have to clip away pieces of the Seimens breaker back to make room for the additional metal tab or grind/cut off the metal tab, both of which are not options that are gonna happen.

I'll look into a new pump since a lot of signs are pointing towards a faulty pump. Should I order one locally or buy it online? Do I also need to replace the whole impeller housing with a new pump or is it alright to just swap out the pump motor?

Each box has its own breakers. You need to match brands as they are proprietary. If you are doing the install yourself then buying online makes the most sense.

 

[mgarf33]

I also want to clarify that I ran 240 out to a breaker box, but the pump and swg are wired on 120 breakers in that box, as is the light. Some comments above make me think you guys thought I wired everything up 240, which is totally not the case. Everything was 120 before, so I kept the same setup. I just ran the 240 to the breaker box and split into 120 breakers from there.

I had assumed the pump was wired for 120 correctly since it's been this way for years, but it can't hurt to double check things just to be sure.

Also, this Seimens breaker def won't fit in this box. I'll have to take pictures to show why, but there's a metal tab on the bus in the breaker box which physically prevents the Seimens breaker from fitting. To force it you either have to clip away pieces of the Seimens breaker back to make room for the additional metal tab or grind/cut off the metal tab, both of which are not options that are gonna happen.

I'll look into a new pump since a lot of signs are pointing towards a faulty pump. Should I order one locally or buy it online? Do I also need to replace the whole impeller housing with a new pump or is it alright to just swap out the pump motor?

You're stating that you ran a 240v circuit. Did you run 3 wire or 2 wire with ground. You can't run a 2 wire with two 120v hot legs and one ground, and run 120v circuits off of it. That would be a huge issue. Why? Because you cannot use the safety ground as a current carrying conductor. A neutral wire must be connected all the way back to the main panel. There is a difference between neutral and ground. Everything is bonded back to the main panel with grounding rods to ensure there is a 0 potential throughout the entire circuit.