20 mule team....Spa

[freesolo12]

Hello! I am new to spa ownership (almost 1 year) and trying to find my way away from FROG "smoke and mirrors." I really appreciate all the posts to help me learn the bleach/Dichlor method. I have a Bullfrog A6L (350 gallons) and I use mostly HTH products. I'm getting ready to fresh fill and I normally try to get to 30CYA (then pool bleach) ph= 7.4, CH 200, TA 50-60. I am going to try and add borate and CSI to my TFP pool app (love the app). I use a Taylor test kit and a Apera ph meter both. My question is to pursue borax usage. I purchased " 20 Mule Team Borax Laundry Booster and Multi purpose cleaner." (65 oz. box )
1) 20 Mule team is NOT pure boric acid, correct? The TFP pool app asks what to input, Borax/Boric Acid/Tetraborate Pentahydrate
2) At a target amount of 50 ppm, the amounts to add are from 13, 16 and 21 ounces. What is the correct input for 20 Mule team?
3) Muriatic acid is mentioned a lot. I do not use it, only Sodium Bisulfate to lower ph. Is this Ok?
4) How to measure borates? I think i have seen 2 brands of test strips?
5) I assume 20 Mule Team is the LAST thing to work on, after, Ph, TA, CH and the sanitizer level?
6) IF , for example, 16 ounces is the correct amount, how fast can it be added? Slowly broadcast as it dissolves? Can It be added all in a reasonable amount of time?
I referenced the Nov 2009 post from J24, it was good info for sure. THANKS to all who makes this so great! I will have more questions, mostly about the "new" info to add dichlor 1-2 days a month and how I need to use non chlorine shock ( not very much I believe)
I hope this all makes good sense. Thanks to all and the Dichlor/bleach pages I have printed and read over and over!
Freesolo12

 

[Mdragger88]

Hello! I am new to spa ownership (almost 1 year) and trying to find my way away from FROG "smoke and mirrors." I really appreciate all the posts to help me learn the bleach/Dichlor method. I have a Bullfrog A6L (350 gallons) and I use mostly HTH products. I'm getting ready to fresh fill and I normally try to get to 30CYA (then pool bleach) ph= 7.4, CH 200, TA 50-60. I am going to try and add borate and CSI to my TFP pool app (love the app). I use a Taylor test kit and a Apera ph meter both. My question is to pursue borax usage. I purchased " 20 Mule Team Borax Laundry Booster and Multi purpose cleaner." (65 oz. box )
1) 20 Mule team is NOT pure boric acid, correct? The TFP pool app asks what to input, Borax/Boric Acid/Tetraborate Pentahydrate

You have borax - it is not boric acid

2) At a target amount of 50 ppm, the amounts to add are from 13, 16 and 21 ounces. What is the correct input for 20 Mule team?

It would be whatever poolmath says for borax

3) Muriatic acid is mentioned a lot. I do not use it, only Sodium Bisulfate to lower ph. Is this Ok?

Dry acid adds sulfates which can damage your heater so we recommend muriatic acid.
Use what you have & purchase muriatic acid in the future

4) How to measure borates? I think i have seen 2 brands of test strips?

For a stand alone spa it really doesn’t need to be measured & replenished often so I have only ever used the Taylor strips - but lamotte is fine too.
Just put in the amount poolmath calls for to increase to 50ppm & assume its there until you exchange water. Spas should be drained & refilled regularly (3-6months) so you’ll always be just adding that initial 50ppm.

5) I assume 20 Mule Team is the LAST thing to work on, after, Ph, TA, CH and the sanitizer level?

Correct

6) IF , for example, 16 ounces is the correct amount, how fast can it be added? Slowly broadcast as it dissolves? Can It be added all in a reasonable amount of time?

If it were boric acid (which we recommend) you just dump it in & move on.
For borax you must counter act the ph rise with acid after adding.
Pics below

I referenced the Nov 2009 post from J24, it was good info for sure. THANKS to all who makes this so great! I will have more questions, mostly about the "new" info to add dichlor 1-2 days a month and how I need to use non chlorine shock ( not very much I believe)

Fwiw - I don’t use mps/non chlorine shock just liquid chlorine or dichlor
These aren’t exact figures but you get the idea.




Boric acid doesn’t require this step
& is much simpler

 

[freesolo12]

THANKS! What a valuable source. Appreciate all the info!
So... I have learned here Boric Acid is better than 20 mule team for my application, as it affects ph less. I can use a fine powder, such as Duda diesel 99.9%?
The reason i was scared away from Muriatic acid is my Bullfrog owners manual, " NOTE: Never use Muriatic or Hydrochloric acid to adjust pH as it can damage the spa shell and surroundings." I assume this is because of the majority of people who cannot handle acids correctly and the various levels of strength can cause problems. Pick a lower percentage such as 14.5% and add slowly to a slow circulating spa ( I have two jet pumps) ? I have a MT degree and a fair amount of chemistry knowledge, just have no water chemistry experience. Thanks for the advice! Greatly appreciated!

 

[newdude]

The reason i was scared away from Muriatic acid is my Bullfrog owners manual, " NOTE: Never use Muriatic or Hydrochloric acid to adjust pH as it can damage the spa shell and surroundings." I assume this is because of the majority of people who cannot handle acids correctly

It absolutely has to do with people mishandling chemicals which may damage the shell. Adding with proper care, to the water and not dumped/splashed on the shell, is fine, but people gonna people.

But then Bullfrog convienently steers said people into buying their dry acid, so that has to come into play to some extent also. Because corporations gonna corporate.

Is it 50/50, 25/75, 75/25 ? We may never know. But both are responsible IMO.

 

[phonedave]

THANKS! What a valuable source. Appreciate all the info!
So... I have learned here Boric Acid is better than 20 mule team for my application, as it affects ph less. I can use a fine powder, such as Duda diesel 99.9%?
The reason i was scared away from Muriatic acid is my Bullfrog owners manual, " NOTE: Never use Muriatic or Hydrochloric acid to adjust pH as it can damage the spa shell and surroundings." I assume this is because of the majority of people who cannot handle acids correctly and the various levels of strength can cause problems. Pick a lower percentage such as 14.5% and add slowly to a slow circulating spa ( I have two jet pumps) ? I have a MT degree and a fair amount of chemistry knowledge, just have no water chemistry experience. Thanks for the advice! Greatly appreciated!

For the record, I have been using MA in my A6 for 18 months now and the shell is just fine.

My head rests have wrinkled up, and that is something I have to figure out, but I doubt it is from acid.

 

[JamesW]

I can use a fine powder, such as Duda diesel 99.9%?

Get the granular.

boric acid | Duda Diesel Alternative Energy, Chemicals & Industrial Supply Store

Granular Boric Acid, 5 lb [boric5] | DudaDiesel Biodiesel Supplies

 

[Mdragger88]

THANKS! What a valuable source. Appreciate all the info!
So... I have learned here Boric Acid is better than 20 mule team for my application, as it affects ph less. I can use a fine powder, such as Duda diesel 99.9%?
The reason i was scared away from Muriatic acid is my Bullfrog owners manual, " NOTE: Never use Muriatic or Hydrochloric acid to adjust pH as it can damage the spa shell and surroundings." I assume this is because of the majority of people who cannot handle acids correctly and the various levels of strength can cause problems. Pick a lower percentage such as 14.5% and add slowly to a slow circulating spa ( I have two jet pumps) ? I have a MT degree and a fair amount of chemistry knowledge, just have no water chemistry experience. Thanks for the advice! Greatly appreciated!

Correct on both accounts
Go with the granular (technical grade) boric acid.
The powder is a booger to mix.
With MA Just like with any other chems - don’t pour it on anything

 

[Mdragger88]

For the record, I have been using MA in my A6 for 18 months now and the shell is just fine.

My head rests have wrinkled up, and that is something I have to figure out, but I doubt it is from acid.

The inside of my cover has done this after 5 years - I presume because I don’t air it out/sun it as often as I should during the winter months.
Initially during good weather I would flip it over in the sun & rinse it off & it became less rigid/ more supple like brand new. During the winter this is harder to accomplish.

 

[phonedave]

The inside of my cover has done this after 5 years - I presume because I don’t air it out/sun it as often as I should during the winter months.
Initially during good weather I would flip it over in the sun & rinse it off & it became less rigid/ more supple like brand new. During the winter this is harder to accomplish.

My headrests have basically "pruned" like fingers do in water.

They are some sort of vinyl covered foam. On the corners the vinyl has become loose and wrinkly, as if it has stretched.

The underside of my cover is some kind of rubberized / plasticized canvas (it is a fabric cover, not vinyl) and luckily that is still like new.

 

[Mdragger88]

My headrests have basically "pruned" like fingers do in water.

They are some sort of vinyl covered foam. On the corners the vinyl has become loose and wrinkly, as if it has stretched.

The underside of my cover is some kind of rubberized / plasticized canvas (it is a fabric cover, not vinyl) and luckily that is still like new.

Seriously, Try rinsing them & laying them out in the sun for a few hours.
My cover under belly has the same “pruning”. Sunning it really does help just not as much as it used to as I let it go too far I believe. The areas that are in contact with the top of the tub rim still look brand new. I assume this is because they aren’t as exposed to the various vapors all the time.