My pool is due for a renovation. The main issue is the infinity edge is leaking causing water to get behind the weir wall stone and behind the catch basin pebble finish. Everything on the “dry” side of the weir wall is delaminating. I had 3 highly recommended pool contractors come take a look and provide a quote. The first contractor came out in June, the 2nd contractor came out in early July, and the 3rd contractor came out last week. I have received no quotes and only “we are working on it”. Is it typical to wait months for a quote? I realize my renovation is more complex than usual, but months to quote seems excessive. I’m now considering doing the tile and stone repairs myself and hiring a plaster company to refinish the pebble. Is that crazy? I’ve done tile and stone repairs on the pool already. One of the pool contractors even complimented the work without knowing I did the repairs.
Infinity Edge Pool & Spa Renovation
- Thread starter birdman579
- Start date
- Jul 21, 2013
- 64,749
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Renovation work is more of a PITA and probably less profitable then new builds.
They will get back to you if or when their new build work slows down and they need work.
They will get back to you if or when their new build work slows down and they need work.
My pool needs a renovation: new tile, re-install loose coping, fix infinity edge weir wall, and new finish. So far 3 pool contractors have been out and said they would provide an estimate, but none have provided anything yet (waiting over 2 months). Therefore, I’m considering performing the renovations myself. The finish I would sub out, but I could do all the other work myself. I might hire a pool mason or tiler depending on how much time I have. Are there any good threads or members that have done their own renovation? I have enjoyed reading the various owner build threads, but cannot find any owner renovation threads. Maybe my search skills are lacking. Please help!
The hardest part of doing it yourself is finding the subs willing to do the work for you. If you do it during the off season they might be hungry enough to work for you. Care to show us you are working with?
Had a minute to find his thread.
www.troublefreepool.com
bperry’s pool renovation
I started a new project trying to level out the existing deck around our pool rather than trying to find a contractor to replace it. I guess all the concrete guys are rolling in cash right now cause they won’t call back. Here’s the first one that I was able to raise up level with a hydraulic...
www.troublefreepool.com
Lots of the contractors out here appear to be swamped in work or don’t want to do smaller jobs and so give you outrageous estimates to see if you have deep pockets. If they haven’t called you back yet, it’s almost guaranteed they don’t want the job.
You can try what I did. Find a local pool store and see if they have a business card for a guy they recommend for renovations. I was able to find a contractor that actually came and did the work himself with his own crew. But I did a lot of work ahead of time to try and keep costs down.
My opinion on
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,627
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I guess technically I did manage my own renovation, but it was simpler than yours. Still: full chip out, new pebble, tile restoration and minor tile installation, slight plumbing modification. The key to the ease and success of my project was that I only had to hire one sub, the pebble installer. They did everything else, or brought in their own subs (or crews) to do the tile restoration and a second tile guy to do some other tile work. The pebble guys did the minor plumbing work themselves.
So maybe forget the general (who's only going to take a big cut for doing none of the actual work), and start with finding the finish installer. See what other parts of your project they can handle themselves, or that they can share with other subs that they know and have worked with. Figure out with them what parts of your project would be covered by that arrangement, and then do anything left over yourself. You and only one sub to manage will make for a tidy project. If you have a bunch of subs, especially if they don't know each other, that's when things can fall apart.
Not even bothering to get back to you to say they're not interested, let alone do what they promised, is a huge red flag. Cross those contractors off the list. If they won't perform before the job even starts, that's a pretty good indicator that they'll jerk you around the entire project. And with a job as small as yours, they'll push your schedule around to accommodate their bigger jobs, or blow you off altogether for another project that falls into their lap after they start your job. Red, red, red flags! When you hear horror stories about jobs that start and sit unfinished for months or years, those are the kind of contractors that are involved.
The company I went with had an amazing showroom, and a sales staff, and a project manager and several crews. They were a big outfit, not a couple of guys working out of their garage. I think that made the difference. The project manager was in essence the general and did all the scheduling and coordinating, and the job went very fast from start to finish. Look for that kind of outfit.
So maybe forget the general (who's only going to take a big cut for doing none of the actual work), and start with finding the finish installer. See what other parts of your project they can handle themselves, or that they can share with other subs that they know and have worked with. Figure out with them what parts of your project would be covered by that arrangement, and then do anything left over yourself. You and only one sub to manage will make for a tidy project. If you have a bunch of subs, especially if they don't know each other, that's when things can fall apart.
Not even bothering to get back to you to say they're not interested, let alone do what they promised, is a huge red flag. Cross those contractors off the list. If they won't perform before the job even starts, that's a pretty good indicator that they'll jerk you around the entire project. And with a job as small as yours, they'll push your schedule around to accommodate their bigger jobs, or blow you off altogether for another project that falls into their lap after they start your job. Red, red, red flags! When you hear horror stories about jobs that start and sit unfinished for months or years, those are the kind of contractors that are involved.
The company I went with had an amazing showroom, and a sales staff, and a project manager and several crews. They were a big outfit, not a couple of guys working out of their garage. I think that made the difference. The project manager was in essence the general and did all the scheduling and coordinating, and the job went very fast from start to finish. Look for that kind of outfit.
Thanks for the helpful tips! Here are some pictures of what I’ve got to repair.
Overall view of the pool (need to finish the playhouse I’m building in the background so I can get to fixing the pool):
The main issue is cracking/leaking of the tile along the infinity edge. This leaking has caused most of the stone to delaminate from the dry side of the weir wall and delaminate the pebble in the basin. Everything sounds hollow when tapping on it.
I don’t like how the tile and grout was installed on the top of the wall and has cracked within 3 years of repairing.
My other main issue is a spa leak. I had some pool and leak companies come out and removed the coping stone to determine the cause. It looks like the pebble delaminated from the tile causing water to flow behind the pebble. The finish is hollow along this wall.
I feel like I can handle all these issues individually which is why I’m inclinced to perform most of the repairs myself, but combined might be too much time.
Overall view of the pool (need to finish the playhouse I’m building in the background so I can get to fixing the pool):
The main issue is cracking/leaking of the tile along the infinity edge. This leaking has caused most of the stone to delaminate from the dry side of the weir wall and delaminate the pebble in the basin. Everything sounds hollow when tapping on it.
I don’t like how the tile and grout was installed on the top of the wall and has cracked within 3 years of repairing.
My other main issue is a spa leak. I had some pool and leak companies come out and removed the coping stone to determine the cause. It looks like the pebble delaminated from the tile causing water to flow behind the pebble. The finish is hollow along this wall.
I feel like I can handle all these issues individually which is why I’m inclinced to perform most of the repairs myself, but combined might be too much time.
Last edited:
Cracks in the plaster are caused by shifting soil underneath/behind the structure, most likely caused by a long term water intrusion. The spa jet heating water would be way way way down on a long list of likely causes.
You need to fix the soil movement first by determining if the soil is moving because of the water leaking through those cracks or whether it moved first and caused the cracks (which are leaking more water causing further soil movement).
If you just fix the stuff above the waterline without addressing the leak, the repairs will just fail again, which sounds like you have already experienced.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,627
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Yes, we really enjoy the pool and backyard! Lots of great family parties.
The pool was originally built in 2007 so this is the 18th swimming season. We have only lived here for 5 seasons.
Wow, that is an incredible pool. I so wish my flat subdivision had a slope I could have built out like yours.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,627
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I was sniffing around for some possible cash for this repair, if it turns out the pool was not built correctly. I won a suit against my home's builder, even though I was not the original owner/buyer, because I proved him liable for a construction defect, and I sued him within the statute of limitations. But I expect there is no statute that would span that 18 years. Hopefully, if there is an underlying problem, as @Bperry suggests (which is a sound theory), it won't be too bad of a fix.
Some pool builders offer a "lifetime" warranty on the shell. That might be something to investigate. It's a stretch, of course, because "lifetime" could mean a lot of different things, even if there was such a warranty. Whose lifetime? Yours? The builder's? The original owner's? The pool's? The house's? In reality, in means the lifetime of the builder's business! It's not worth pursuing if the repair is up to a few grand, but if this turns out to be a bigger deal, it might be worth a look.
I'm getting ready to renovate my infinity edge pool and spa. The primary issue is the waterline tile along the infinity edge was not properly installed and allowed significant water to penetrate behind the tiles and stone on the weir wall. Nearly all of the stone on the weir wall has delaminated and needs to be replaced. I plan to replace all the waterline tile, replace the weir wall stone with tile, and refinish the pool with a pebble finish. I was hoping to only replace the tile and stone, but the finish in the catch basin has delaminated due to the water issues on the weir wall. I have consulted with 3 pool renovation companies and may do some of the tile work myself. All 3 companies had different recommendations for how to waterproof and tile the weir wall. I consulted the P602 spec at Laticrete for partially tiled pools to help create the attached drawings for the waterproofing and tile work. I'm hoping folks can review what is proposed and provide feedback. A few comments and questions I'm looking to address:
Thanks for all the help!
- I know most folks on here recommend a full chip out when refinishing a pool, but none of the 3 companies recommended this. One of them specifically wanted to leave the existing finish in place to act as additional waterproofing on the positive side of the weir wall. One only wanted to acid wash the finish which is concerning since there are clear delaminated areas. These companies were highly recommended.
- Should Laticrete Hydroban Cementitious Waterproofing be applied under the mortar in addition to over the mortar bed? My concern about under the mortar bed is getting a smooth enough surface on the pool shell to allow for an even layer to be applied. One of the main purposes of the mortar bed is to smooth out the uneven surface of the pool shell after the stone and tile is removed.
- Should the tiles on the top of the weir wall extend over the edge of the negative side? My diagram shows bullnose tiles to enable a well-defined Latasil joint at the change in plane from top to vertical. Also, with 2x2 tiles on the top of the wall, I'm concerned about properly supported them if they extend over the vertical tiles. For example, if I extend them 1/2" then the most bonding surface is 75% of the tile which is less than the 95% specified in P602.
- By replacing stone with tile on the weir wall, I need to build up the wall with mortar to achieve the same final vertical location since tiles are much thinner than the existing stone. One of the pool companies recommended using 8x8x2 concrete blocks to build up the wall and smooth over with a mortar bed. Does this seem reasonable? Are multiple coats of render/mortar better? I might have to do a wait and see on concrete blocks until I remove all the stone to see how much I truly need to build out the surface.
- My drawings show the existing pebble finish being removed 6" below the existing waterline tile to enable the waterproofing to extend below the cold joint at the bottom of the tile. Do I show this properly? Is this a good idea? I incorporated this per the drawing from Laticrete.
- I am considering Latapoxy 300 epoxy thinset instead of the more standard Laticrete 254 to increase the bond strength and reduce the chances of efflorescence. Do you think this is worth the trouble and cost?
- How critical is the type/brand of bond coat?
- Any other comments on the drawings attached?
Thanks for all the help!
Attachments
- Jul 21, 2013
- 64,749
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Are you going to be standing over the workmen doing quality control and critiquing as they work?
You can specify all the top quality materials but if the workman are not professionals who take pride in their work you can end up with problems.
My concern is that you are specifying all of this and not your contractor. Your contractor should be demonstrating how they intend to do quality control on your project.
@AQUA~HOLICS works with contractors who have demonstrated they meet his quality standards. That is more difficult for a pool owner who is doing this once and has never worked with the contractor.
You can specify all the top quality materials but if the workman are not professionals who take pride in their work you can end up with problems.
My concern is that you are specifying all of this and not your contractor. Your contractor should be demonstrating how they intend to do quality control on your project.
@AQUA~HOLICS works with contractors who have demonstrated they meet his quality standards. That is more difficult for a pool owner who is doing this once and has never worked with the contractor.
I would prefer not specifying anything, but I’ve found pool contractors don’t know that much about the engineering details of building a pool. Just like how most pool maintenance companies and pool stores don’t understand any of the details discussed here at TFP. They can make it look great initially and it will look good for a couple of years until the warranty expires, but it won’t last beyond that. Maybe I’m jaded because the original pool builder didn’t follow any TCNA specs for the tile and caused my tile and pebble finish to fail years before it should have. The one contractor I found that is an expert and has this experience never provided a quote. My guess is they are too busy and even a $70K renovation is not worth the trouble. I believe renovations are challenging to get good companies to work because the profit margin is higher and the risk is lower for a new build.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 64,749
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I agree with all you said.
My observation is over the last 15 years between the Great Recession and COVID many quality craftsman have left the business. Many folks today do not know what high quality is or how to use high quality materials. And many don’t read the manuals or attend any training.
I would have discussions with contractors about expectations, specifications, familiarity with the materials and processes, quality control, and specific people assigned to your project. Some may not choose to engage in those discussions. You need to determine if you can get comfortable with any contractors standards.
Expect to pay for quality and consider specifying measurable quality standards that can earn the workmen a bonus.
I decided to start the preliminary renovations at the spa and a decent portion of the wall crumbled as I was removing the coping. Upon further investigation, I believe most of the damage was caused by poor/no sealing around the mouth of the skimmer. All the damage basically spread from the skimmer. There were huge gaps between the tile and skimmer that I sealed a few years ago, but I think the damage was already done so I was just putting a bandaid on a huge flesh wound. I think a secondary issue was minor leaking around the pipe for the spa control wires.
I contacted one of the pool renovation companies to help with the process and perform the major steps. I think I will give the tiling and coping a shot on my own. The one contractor is very willing to work with me and could step in to finish tiling or other work if I get overwhelmed. I may start a new thread detailing my entire renovation journey.
I contacted one of the pool renovation companies to help with the process and perform the major steps. I think I will give the tiling and coping a shot on my own. The one contractor is very willing to work with me and could step in to finish tiling or other work if I get overwhelmed. I may start a new thread detailing my entire renovation journey.
Attachments
- Jul 21, 2013
- 64,749
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Keep it all here.
Edit the subject line in the first post to what you want to focus the thread on.