Where to place electrical outlet on pool deck, and control for autocover?

[quantase]

My salt water inground pool is currently being built and they have done the plumbing and the gunite. The electrical will be installed soon. I will receive an outlet at the equipment (pump, filter, heater) area (approximately 40 ft from pool), and I will get another outlet on the deck. Where should I have them place the electrical outlet on the deck? I want it to be usable so I can plug in a water pump for the pool cover, pool robot cleaner, and other potential hook ups that I am not aware of at this time. This is my first pool and I want to make sure I have most things in place where I need it. Here is a schematic of what the pool and the deck will look like. In the cut out area (10x18) on the diagram, that will be for a future pergola or covered structure. I will not have the pergola structure up on the deck this season, but it will be there in the future (a year or two). Also, do you think I should run electrical conduit pipe from the home breaker box to the "future pergola" space while the electrician have the trench open so that I can add electricity to the pergola when it is up? I want the pergola to be on a separate breaker than the pool equipment so that I have more control of the lighting in the pergola. In addition, I'm trying to decide on having a keypad or a key operated auto pool cover control. Do anyone have any thoughts of which one is best and will last the longest without malfunction? Thanks in advance for advice.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You contractor has to follow NEC pool code on the proper placement of outlets around the pool. Typically any electrical device must be 5ft away from the edge of the water. It will have to be an outlet in a proper environmental enclosure and on an GFCI circuit. Again, this is all controlled by pool electrical safety code and your contractor must follow that in order for the pool to pass inspection.

 

[quantase]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, they plan to follow the code; however, they said that it could basically be anywhere outside of the 5ft perimeter of the water in an enclosure. Thinking if they put the one outlet on the flooring within the deck on the 7ft side, should I ask them to place right outside of the pool deck on a small pedestal on the 7ft side, or in the area where the future Pergola will be. The flooring seems like it would look better. Thoughts? How about the keypad vs physical key control for the automatic cover? Thanks.

 

[Dirk]

The outlet should not be within the perimeter of the deck, but just outside of it. Reachable from the deck so you're not stepping in landscaping or dirt to get at it. Mine is on the conduit that supports my pool light j-box, hidden behind a plant.

Have them run a big fat empty conduit to the pergola location. If it were mine, I'd want to run:

- electrical for receptacle(s)
- electrical so I could turn on the pergola lights on a 3-way circuit (at pergola and back inside the house, next to the door to the yard)
- another three-way circuit (first was for the main lights on the pergola, the second for the bistro lights!)
- a third three-way circuit for the landscape lighting transformer that I'd put somewhere in or near the pergola
- speaker wire
- ethernet wire (for wifi extender)
- a second run of ethernet (ethernet wire can be used to deliver hdmi tv, intercom, video, surveillance cam, security, all sort of things)
- a third run of ethernet (because it's cheap and I might want several of those options)
- a pull cord so I could pull even more cables for whatever I didn't plan for

all in a big fat 2+ inch conduit (give or take). But maybe that's just me!

I'd want a hose bib or two run out there, too, for watering and cleaning. Plus PVC and/or drip tubing for landscaping irrigation.

Now's the time to run this stuff, as it is much harder to (or impossible) once the deck is down.

 

[PoolguyinCT]

Typically placed outside a barrier wall. If home is a barrier member, lagged to building.

Many states are starting to adopt key placement outside of barrier envelope, which I hope all will.

 

[quantase]

Thanks for the suggestions! Our J-box will be about 8-10 feet from the edge of the decking on the 7ft. side. We have a large bush there and the thought was similar to you, where we could hide the J-box; however, I think it may be quite far to place the other electrical outlet there unless we get some sort of waterproof extension cord.

I was thinking about running a 1.5 in. empty conduit to the pergola, but I might go up to 2in. for the extra room. I didn't think about drip tubing for landscaping since we were just planning to have grass surround the deck, but it may be worth installing just in case. On the 7ft side near the 10'x18' cut out, a 5' x25' Travertine sidewalk (connecting the deck to the house) will be there and grass on both sides of that as well. I was thinking about putting those stick in the ground solar lights on each side of the side walk and maybe around the decking. Do you or anyone have any ideas (or websites) on what looks nice and reliable for the lighting?

Thanks

 

[Dirk]

I went the other way. I've gone through too many big box store lighting solutions. I looked for the best, most expensive solution instead!! I definitely found expensive!! Three and a half years in and they are everything I expected, no issues at all. Mine are hardwired, low voltage, solid brass, LED. I expect them to outlast me. After that, they're my daughter's problem!!

There might be better, and/or more expensive, but I'll put these up against 'em:

Outdoor Lighting - Shop Exterior LED Light Fixtures at Factory Direct Low Prices | VOLT Lighting

They offer kits, which help with the cost a bit. I installed them myself, the kits come with everything you need. Very easy to do.

I have path lighting, which is great. But also uplighting, under trees and shining up through them, which really make the whole effect. Not something you can do with solar lights, which always look anemic to me.

 

[Dirk]

This pic doesn't do justice to what the lighting looks like in my yard. My cam couldn't capture it, at all. But this illustrates what's possible with wired lighting, and not possible, at all, with those little solar lights.

Of course, if you're looking for just a hint of subtle light, to make your way around the pool at night, then what I've suggested would be complete overkill!

 

[santacruzpool]

I have a pergola that I just added electrical to after 3 years. Absolutely run the conduit to that area, as others have already mentioned - I would do 2 conduits - one for line voltage, one for low voltage (speaker, Ethernet, etc).

We have a key box for our safety cover - it is right next to our control panel and is in view of the pool as required by code. I don't know if a keypad would be better as I have never used one but it sounds like a nice alternative.

We had to replace one of the key switch actuators in ours already - apparently some water got in the box. It was a $20 part I got on eBay (cue Weird Al).

 

[Dirk]

I have a pergola that I just added electrical to after 3 years. Absolutely run the conduit to that area, as others have already mentioned - I would do 2 conduits - one for line voltage, one for low voltage (speaker, Ethernet, etc).

Separate conduits is the better way to do it.

 

[ajw22]

Separate conduits is the better way to do it.

In general it is against the NEC code to mix line voltage and low voltage in the same conduit. It can also add 60hz hum to audio lines.

725-54. Installation of Conductors and Equipment
(a) Separation from Electric Light, Power, Class 1, Nonpower-Limited Fire Alarm Circuit Conductors, and Medium Power Network-Powered Broadband Communications Cables.
(1) In Cables, Compartments, Cable Trays, Enclosures, Manholes, Outlet Boxes, Device Boxes, and Raceways. Cables and conductors of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits shall not be placed in any cable, cable tray, compartment, enclosure, manhole, outlet box, device box, raceway, or similar fitting with conductors of electric light, power, Class 1, nonpower-limited fire alarm circuits, and medium power network-powered broadband communications cables.
Exception No. 1: Where the conductors of the electric light, power, Class 1, nonpower-limited fire alarm, and medium power network-powered broadband communications circuits are separated by a barrier from the Class 2 and Class 3 circuits. In enclosures, Class 2 or Class 3 circuits shall be permitted to be installed in a raceway within the enclosure to separate them from Class 1, electric light, power, nonpower-limited fire alarm, and medium power network-powered broadband communications circuits.
Exception No. 2: Conductors in compartments, enclosures, device boxes, outlet boxes, or similar fittings, where electric light, power, Class 1, nonpower-limited fire alarm, and medium power network-powered broadband communications circuit conductors are introduced solely to connect to the equipment connected to Class 2 or Class 3 circuits to which the other conductors are connected, and
a. The electric light, power, Class 1, nonpower-limited fire alarm, and medium power network-powered broadband communications circuit conductors are routed to maintain a minimum of 0.25 in. (6.35 mm) separation from the conductors and cables of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits, or
b. The circuit conductors operate at 150 volts or less to ground and also comply with one of the following:
1. The Class 2 and Class 3 circuits are installed using Type CL3, CL3R, or CL3P or permitted substitute cables, provided these Class 3 cable conductors extending beyond the jacket are separated by a minimum of 0.25 in. (6.35 mm) or by a nonconductive sleeve or nonconductive barrier from all other conductors,

 

[quantase]

Those are very nice lights! I'm getting the itch to go for these, which would spruce up the look and give enough light to see where I'm putting my feet at night. I could not open your photo attachment. Could you please resend? I'm a DYI'er so I may try for one of the kits and install myself. Thanks for the hints!

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for the reminder about the code. I will probably lay two 1.5 conduits in the trench then.

 

[Dirk]

I could not open your photo attachment.

Weird, not sure why it came in as an attachment. Try now...

What my iPhone can't capture is that the light is not that bright. It's much more subtle than that. And pine trees don't work all that well for uplighting, so you have to back off the light and hit them from the side. Most of my trees are not as dense, so the light is very close to the trunk, shining almost directly up. So the trunk, branches and inner leaves are lit up well, but the outer leaves are still mostly in the dark. It is a very stunning effect in the tree, and also casts a soft glow around the perimeter of the tree, perfect for lighting up a walkway enough to see. The walkway lights are also much more subtle than in that pic, and just cause a circle of light enough to see the concrete, not light it up like a landing strip! I need a better camera to capture what it really looks like...

 

[quantase]

Thanks for the info on the key switch. I haven't heard of too many people with the keypad either, but it is an option. I may go with the key since it seems that it would be more reliable and less likely to cost a lot if it would break or malfunction in the future. Unless others have used a keypad for the automatic cover and think differently.

 

[quantase]

I see it now. Awesome pool with the lighting! In the pic, I assume to the Left near the umbrella is a path light. Do you recall what size LED bulbs you have in them?

 

[Dirk]

I see it now. Awesome pool with the lighting! In the pic, I assume to the Left near the umbrella is a path light. Do you recall what size LED bulbs you have in them?

Yes, four pathway lights surround the pool (which is also not that gaudy, that's the cam again!).

I used 3W for the pathway lights. Plenty for my application.

If you go Volt (or any wired system, really), here's what I would do differently if I could.

I bought a kit, plus a few extra lights. Then later added a few more. Then one more after that!! They recommend the total wattage of the system not exceed 75% of the transformer rating. I'm probably pushing that now by a few watts. But I wish I had bought the next bigger transformer. They're addictive, and I already wish I had about six more lights, including two or three big monsters to light up more of my yard. In my pic, beyond the fence in the blackness back there, are a row of giant oak trees. I want to light them up, subtly, of course, as a backdrop to my yard. They'd look amazing, from the yard and from inside my house. But I'm maxed on my transformer now. I can add another, but they're not cheap and the better value would have been to buy a bigger one to begin with. I suppose the advantage of having two is to be able to wire them to separate switches, so I could turn one set of lights on independently from the rest.

As you can see, I'm addicted, and will likely need more of the good stuff to feed my habit!!

Install tip, no matter what brand you end up with, if they are wired: it's the wires that cause most of the problems. The bulbs can go, and the cheaper housings can corrode and fall apart, but usually it's the wiring. It lays on the dirt, and/or gets slightly buried, and invariably the connections corrode and fail. Volt gives you really good wire nuts to put things together, but they are still the weak link, and have been in every system I've ever strung. So this time...

I took the trouble to drag around a soldering iron via extension cord to each connection. I soldered them all. Then used the wire nut (with the waterproof goo) on top of that. I will never have a corroded connection again! Overkill for sure, but that is my middle name!! Do it right, do it once.

I also used the larger gauge wire, 12 I think. You get a better run out of that larger size, can add more lights and suffer less resistance (resulting in brighter lighting).

BTW, my entire yard uses about 50 watts. LEDs are awesome in that way.

 

[bmoreswim]

Thanks for the info on the key switch. I haven't heard of too many people with the keypad either, but it is an option. I may go with the key since it seems that it would be more reliable and less likely to cost a lot if it would break or malfunction in the future. Unless others have used a keypad for the automatic cover and think differently.

Our autocover switch is by the equipment which is 10' from the corner of the pool. We also have several outlets along the decking edge/retaining wall 13' from the pool edge. I use the middle one along the long side of the pool for the pool cover pump and robot.

I originally had the Coverstar Wi-Fi keypad. I never setup the Wi-Fi. The pad also failed after about 2 years. I replaced it with their standard keyed electrical box with a momentary contact toggle switch.

 

[quantase]

Thanks for the information! This is very helpful! Lots of things for me to think about and burn more cash out of my pockets! I do like the lighting around the pool, so I probably will invest in a larger transformer to accommodate my potential new habit.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for telling me about the keypad. Yes it sounds like the manual key control is the way to go for reliability. I was mainly worried about losing the key at some point. I will just need to get a piece of string and tie it to my neck for safekeeping.

 

[Dirk]

I do like the lighting around the pool, so I probably will invest in a larger transformer to accommodate my potential new habit.

I got good support from Volt. If you find a kit you like, give them a call and see if they'll upgrade just the transformer for the difference in cost...

Or just PM me your credit card number. I'll take care of everything!

 

[bmoreswim]

I was mainly worried about losing the key at some point. I will just need to get a piece of string and tie it to my neck for safekeeping.

It was a small detail, but our cover key came on a keychain that was foam so it floats if you were to drop the key in the pool.