Oxidizer Shock vs Ozone Generator

Aug 24, 2013
95
I am still learning the best I can, and have recently discovered the chlorine free shock method of super oxidizing the water. I do not fully understand it, but am wondering if it can be used with chlorine to make the chlorine more effective OR allow me to use lower concentrations of chlorine.

My Hot Springs tub has an ozone generator with bubbles that rise from the floor, so it already has some form of a natural sanitizing system but I still use chlorine. Now I am wondering how related that the ozone method is to the chlorine free oxidizing shock method? Is the concept the same? Can someone break it down and make the relation between the two for me?

Thank You
 
Non-chlorine shock is basically potassium monopersulfate (MPS). MPS is a secondary oxidizer in water treatment, chlorine is your primary oxidizer and disinfectant. MPS is NOT a good disinfectant and so chlorine is absolutely necessary. MPS can be used in a high bather load hot tub (about 2-3 person-hours per day of soaking) to help breakdown bather waste BEFORE chlorine is added. So it's best to use MPS right after people are done soaking so the MPS can breakdown the bather waste and then follow up with chlorine to further reduce bather waste and to disinfect the water. Use of MPS can cut chlorine use nearly in half in most circumstances. It is important to not add both MPS and FC at the same time as you want the MPS to destroy most of the organics so that the chlorine converts less of them into organic combined chlorine (CC) compounds. Organic CCs are much harder to get rid of in a hot tub than inorganic CCs.

There are downsides to using MPS though. One is cost as it is much more expensive than just using chlorine alone. Another is the build up of sulfates in the tub water. Sulfates can lead to advanced corrosion of the heater element especially if the heater is made of a cheaper steel alloy (titanium heaters are less susceptible to sulfate attack). Finally, MPS will screw up your chlorine testing (FC and CC) as it can register as both of those depending on the testing method used (DPD or DPD-FAS). There are extra reagents that can be purchased to help remove the interference of MPS but, again, that just adds to the cost of using them in the first place.

Ozone generators in hot tubs are almost always very cheaply made and typically die within the first year of use. The cheaper units also produce very little ozone, hardly enough to make a major impact on water quality especially when they reach their end-of-life. Ozone is both an oxidizer and sanitizer BUT ozone cannot maintain a proper residual concentration in water so the EPA only classifies it as a secondary oxidizer/disinfection source. Ozonators are typically built into hot tubs that use bromine as their primary disinfectant as ozone can oxidize bromide salts back into active bromine sanitizer. A properly functioning ozonator can act like adding MPS and will cut down on the amount of chlorine needed BUT there is no way to easily test for the presence or concentration of ozone so there's no way to know how much you can actually cut your chlorine use down by. Most hot tub owners with ozonators never realize they're there and most can't even tell any difference in water chemistry once they fail. So I would simply ignore the ozonator as it is likely doing very little, measurable good.
 
Thanks for the write up! I knew that MPS could not be used solely as a sanitizer but knew it helped. My tub (Hot Springs Jetsetter) is less than 6 months old, and was rarely used until recently. It was incorrectly used without FC for a while (lately) and the water stayed extremely clear, then I started learning about how quickly the FC gassed off...and now I am maintaining FC. So with that being said I do believe the ozone is working as of right now.

Rather than complicating the chemistry further with sulfates I would rather just replace my ozone generator once a year or so if I can do so myself or even get an aftermarket better generator.

"Use of MPS can cut chlorine use nearly in half in most circumstances." - Does this mean that MPS reduces consumption like a stabilizer, or makes FC more effective at lower concentrations??

"...to help breakdown bather waste BEFORE chlorine is added. So it's best to use MPS right after people are done soaking..." - Aside from my baseline of FC between uses I add liquid chlorine before I use the tub, so I am not sure when to use MPS if I were to choose to. You say to use it BEFORE chlorine but AFTER a soak, so maybe I should use it once a week after a soak, then shock it with liquid chlorine the following day?
 
Thanks for the write up! I knew that MPS could not be used solely as a sanitizer but knew it helped. My tub (Hot Springs Jetsetter) is less than 6 months old, and was rarely used until recently. It was incorrectly used without FC for a while (lately) and the water stayed extremely clear, then I started learning about how quickly the FC gassed off...and now I am maintaining FC. So with that being said I do believe the ozone is working as of right now.

Rather than complicating the chemistry further with sulfates I would rather just replace my ozone generator once a year or so if I can do so myself or even get an aftermarket better generator.

Generally it's not easy to replace the ozone generators as most of the devices stuffed inside a hot tub are not easy to get to. You might research your specific brand of tub and see how "serviceable" the ozone generator is.

"Use of MPS can cut chlorine use nearly in half in most circumstances." - Does this mean that MPS reduces consumption like a stabilizer, or makes FC more effective at lower concentrations??

Neither. There is no reaction between the two for the most part. When you use MPS and chlorine together, you're just using two different forms of chemical oxidizers. So if you use some MPS to breakdown bather waste, then you need less chlorine since there's now less bather waste to deal with. This POST has some useful rules of thumb when it comes to chemical dosing.

"...to help breakdown bather waste BEFORE chlorine is added. So it's best to use MPS right after people are done soaking..." - Aside from my baseline of FC between uses I add liquid chlorine before I use the tub, so I am not sure when to use MPS if I were to choose to. You say to use it BEFORE chlorine but AFTER a soak, so maybe I should use it once a week after a soak, then shock it with liquid chlorine the following day?

Speaking as someone that does not like soaking in hot, chlorinated water, a lot of people I know with tubs let the FC drop before soaking and then dose with chlorine after they get out. This way, the water is sanitized prior to use but there's no excess chlorine around during their soak. In that scenario, if one wanted to use MPS, then one would first dose with MPS to breakdown the bather waste and then add chlorine about 8-12 hours later to bring the FC up to appropriate levels. The more in-depth reason to do it this way is to avoid the formation of organic chloramines. Bather waste is going to be composed mostly of sweat and urine. Sweat and urine contain urea, arginine, creatine, creatinine, etc. When those compounds become oxidized by chlorine, organic chloramines are formed and those organic CCs tend to persist in the water for long periods of time. MPS is an oxygenating shock that breaks down those organic compounds into much simpler forms of carbon and nitrogen waste. Those simpler forms of oxidized waste can then react with chlorine and form mostly inorganic chloramines (monochloramine, dichloramine and nitrogen trichloride) which are easily gotten rid of over time as they either oxidize further to nitrates, nitrogen gas and carbon dioxide OR they outgas from the water.

But, as you can see, dosing first with MPS then with chlorine can be a bit of a pain as it requires two steps. So I think most people go the other way and and use chlorine on a daily basis and then shock with MPS each week. However, once organic CC's are formed, they are much less susceptible to MPS oxidation.
 
Thanks for your response, always so many directions with water chemistry and it only gets more complicated the more you learn.

I do not mind the smell of chlorine but often wonder what it does to my body with daily use. The scary part is that it will smell like chlorine but when tested there is no FC at all. I know I need to change my water very soon since the CYA is THROUGH THE ROOF since someone here was using dichlor on a daily basis with it not realizing it contains stabilizer. The levels of CYA are way over 300ppm so I believe I am fighting with trying to dial-in the FC.

I am almost prepared to do a water change but I am still trying to make sure I know what I need to balance it first, so I continue to dump 3-6Tsp. of liquid chlorine in daily. I am wondering if liquid chlorine can loose its potency with evaporation, it comes in a can with a vented cap so I assume if it was going to evaporate it would do so through the cap vent. I often wonder if a prefilled shot glass of liquid chlorine sitting on the counter while I soak will be less potent by the time I get out of the tub? The directions on the tub say to add 1/2Tsp. before each use and 1.5Tsp. weekly but I am adding at least 1.5Tsp. per day and that is barely holding FC. I assume this FC drop is all CYA related.

I did order a floating tab/puck dispenser for 1" trichlor, I realize this has CYA but if I dial the dispenser down to its lowest setting and just use it to maintain FC between soaks I can continue using liquid chlorine before/after soaks. If the CYA rises too fast using a dialed down 1" trichlor dispenser I will have to move to a liquid chlorine dosing pump. Personally I do not like the idea of my tub having 0FC at any time. You can kill the bacteria but if there is no consistent baseline of FC you give them an opportunity to grow their bodies out then when you do have FC you just have a bunch of dead bacteria bodies floating around. The idea is to not give it any opportunity to reproduce uncontrolled, if they die immediately without growing your water will not get "thick" or a higher TDS.
 
With a CYA at 300ppm you need to change the tub water. Your active chlorine levels will be much too low for proper sanitation purposes (bacterial and viral kill times will be much too slow). If you follow what TFP teaches in regard to proper sanitation, then you should be maintaining a 7.5% FC/CYA ratio which would require your FC to be 22.5ppm. That’s just not realistic.

Trichlor should NEVER be used in a hot tub. It dissolves way too fast at normal tub temperatures and is very acidic. You’ll wind up reducing your TA to zero and crashing your pH.
 
How did you test your CYA? 300 is off the chart. See link:
http://www.troublefreepool.com/content/128-chlorine-cya-chart-slam-shock
If it's really that high you need to change the water now. I wouldn't even use the tub.

The recommended chlorine level for 100 ppm CYA is 11 to 13 with an 8 ppm minimum. That's a cup of 8.25% bleach per day for a 400 gal tub possibly more depending on your bather load. If you're really at 300, you can do the math.

How are you determining your chlorine dose? You should be testing with a good test kit (not strips) otherwise you are just guessing.

Use the tool at the link below to learn how much chlorine is needed to achieve a desired result.
https://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html

What are your current chlorine level are you maintaining?

The puck dispenser will likely raise your CYA too much after a month or so. It's really not that hard to add the liquid chlorine/bleach after each soak like Matt suggests. I use a similar process. You can let the chlorine drop to about .5 ppm between daily soaks with a proper CYA level. The smell is barley detectable. You just need to use the calculator and chart above to determine the right amount. You'll get to the point where you just add the same amount for a given number of bathers after every soak. You need to test at least once a day while you get your process dialed in.
 
I have been testing several times a day with strips until my liquid test kit comes in. FC level is all over the place, I am the only one who uses it, and the amount of liquid chlorine it consumes varys. The test strips show the CYA at a deep purple so it is way over the tests maximum readout. I have been using it with this CYA level for a few weeks now unfortunately.

I wish I could main FC between uses with liquid chlorine but its a challenge I can not seem to get any pattern down, some days it consumes more than others, bather load does not change, when I first started using liquid chlorine it held FC until the next use it was at 3ppm. Then after a few days of dosing after my soak it stopped holding FC for 24 hours and now it is completely inconsistent. I keep adding more and it keeps holding FC for less and less of time. I shoot to maintain 3ppm at all times between soaks but its a challenge even without bather variables it is just me.

I hope with fresh water and low CYA that I can maintain 24/7 baseline FC using liquid chlorine only, but as a preventative I ordered the trichlor.

I am the last person on Earth you want to do math so that pool math calculator chart is extremely intimidating right now.

I am afraid to refill the tub using test strips which is the hold up. Our tap water has a GH of 232ppm (using an aquarium liquid test kit) and 200-300ppm according to test strips. The reading I get for KH is 50ppm but that may be irrelevant? I can fill the tub using my water softener which puts out water at 0ppm for GH and the same 50ppm for KH. I am not sure what to do, fill with the softener or not?? Pretty sure if I do I need to add hardness or calcium? I do not think KH and calcium are the same thing, so as of now I have no way of determining calcium levels. I understand the rest of balancing just not sure what to do with the hardness and calcium. Worst comes to worst I can refill, balance the best I can and worry about calcium/hardness in a week and still use it with correct CYA levels and that would be better than the way it is now??
 
I believe KH is the same as TA, and if it's 50 ppm, that would be about perfect. Mine was 275 ppm so I had to do the acid/aeration method to bring it down to around 50 ppm.

GH is calcium, magnesium, and other ions, total hardness, where for pools/spas CH, or calcium hardness, is used. That doesn't matter much for pools/spas unless they are plaster/concrete. Mine was like 250 ppm. For you, you'd probably fill with straight, non-softened water.

Have you ordered a pool test kit? If so, how long till it's here?

Since I just got my spa set up last week, I can say as a newbie don't worry about the FC holding steady after dumping your water. I'm still adding dichlor as my CYA is only up to about 19 ppm (going to 30), but for chlorine purposes it's kind of like adding bleach since it dissolves so fast. It's been easy to do. Measure with test kit, then use poolmath to calculate the amount you need to add to get your target ppm, add it, and you're done. We've been using it a lot but so far it seems like it looses about 1 ppm/day roughly if not being used (so if it was at 4 ppm it would take 4 days to run out), and maybe a ppm or two per hour of soaking. It's an easy test. Do yourself a favor and get the speedstir along with your test kit, makes testing cakewalk.
 
KH is a measurement of bicarbonates and carbonates, not sure how that relates to TA.

I have a plaster/tile pool but my spa is fiberglass so calcium is not needed? Therefor why use non-softened water?

Yes I ordered the K-2006C it will be a week for arrival.

I did not plan on using dichlor after a refill, I have a bag of stabilizer for my pool....I do not want dichlor on this property at all or someone will screw the tub up using it for sanitation. I can raise my CYA level to 30-50 instantly with straight stabilizer.

I will order a Speedstir right now!
 

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Wait for your proper test kit and don’t get back into that tub. In fact, look up Ahh-some jetted hot tub cleaner, get some and use your current bad water to purge your tub’s plumbing. It is no doubt fouled with biofilms.

Aquarium test kits won’t work well in a body of water that is chlorinated. The chlorine can attack the indicator dyes used and cause innaccurate readings.
 
I only use the aquarium tests with tap water, not chemicalized pool or spa water.

Can anyone please verify if I need calcium or not in a FIBERGLASS spa tub? I have a Hot Springs Jetsetter, using softened water should be okay? I shoulden't need to add anything to 0ppm total hardness water?
 
With all bodies of water, you want to have some calcium hardness to prevent the formation of foam. TFP typically recommends an absolute minimum calcium hardness (note - CH and GH are NOT the same thing) of 150ppm with a suitable range being between 200-400ppm.

If you fill softened water, you should add CH up to at least 150ppm. You could add half softened and half regular water and basically be right at the minimum.
 
Fiberglass surfaces need CH in order to prevent cobalt spotting. You should raise your CH to the minimum levels suggested when you refill.
 
Thank you, so am I benefiting from using 100% soft water and adding CH up? Is there anything wrong with the "other hardness factors" or am I over complicating? Was not sure if balancing was any easier with 100% soft with the CH up.

Regarding purging is there any DIY solution I can use today? Such as super shock with another household product? Ordering it will take too long. The tub is only 6 months old max. I can make sure to have it on hand for the next water change.
 
The other hardness factor is carbonate hardness. But, did you report results in degrees (dKH) or ppm CaCO3? It matters as there’s a 17.9 scaling factor involved?

Softened water is not any easier to treat or test than regular tap water. The benefit of having it is that you can dial in your CH to the value you want and then top off with softened water to keep the CH from rising. Most people dump their tubs before rising CH ever becomes an issue so it’s up to you if you want to use softened water. Just maintain minimum CH levels.

No DIY purging solutions. Ahh-some is the proven industry leader in tubs cleaners. Even if your tub is brand new from the factory it can have left over stagnant water in it from pressure testing as well as oils and greases from assembly. Even brand new tubs can have biofilms and gunk in the plumbing. Superchlorination is not effective at removing adhered films. You’ll just have to find a locally available tub cleaner product (most are junk compared to Ahh-some) or wait until your next refill when the Ahh-some can arrive.
 
You are VERY helpful, thank you very much.

My 50ppm of KH reported above would be ppm. 50ppm = 3DKH

How does calcium rise in the tub over time? Just from top offs? I will make sure to always top my tub off with softened water.
 
You are VERY helpful, thank you very much.

My 50ppm of KH reported above would be ppm. 50ppm = 3DKH

How does calcium rise in the tub over time? Just from top offs? I will make sure to always top my tub off with softened water.

Yes. Topping off with high CH fill water. It’s usually not significant in a hot tub as most people dump their tub water ever 4-6 months.
 
I plan on dumping my water 4 times a year, every 3 months/season. So even if I use it heavily I guess CH rise from hard water top offs will not matter. What about KH rise though? What is a good KH target range?

KH is not what you want to measure. Total alkalinity (TA) is the important parameter as TA will dictate pH rise from the aeration of the water and outgassing of CO2. For a hot tub, you typically want to keep your TA down at 50ppm and a lot of people will also add 50ppm borates to the water to help keep pH rise under control. TA is increased by adding baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to the water and it is lowered by using the acid/aeration process.

All of this is spelled out in the following sticky in the TFP sub forum for hot tubs - How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?
 

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