White crystals forming on plaster

voidpointer

Gold Supporter
Oct 8, 2020
547
Prosper, TX
Pool Size
19440
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Jandy Aquapure 1400
I didn't notice these during the summer. I noticed using the spa this winter that something sharp like thorns was poking my legs. There are small and jagged white crystals stuck to the plaster in the spa. It's been too cold to see if they're in the pool as well. Is this salt or calcium or something?

The picture below is of one of those crystals I plucked from the plaster.

PXL_20240214_203410442.jpg
 
Probably calcium scale. Put a drop of acid on it and see if it fizzes up.

Have read through this thread:

In recent years, calcium crystals have been forming during the winter at a higher rate in some newly plastered swimming pools. From the reports we have heard, this problem seems to occur more often in the northeast of the country. Apparently, pool builders, plasterers, and service techs involved have not been able to determine the cause of these sharp and abrasive crystals and how to prevent them from forming on new plaster surfaces, including quartz and pebble.

(It should be noted that calcium crystals are different in appearance and form than the typical calcium scale that develops due to high pH and/or hard water), or calcium nodules that develop due to plaster delamination (bond failure) and in cracks.

Some think that the root cause of calcium crystal formation is aggressive water. More specifically, the theory is that some pools are not being properly winterized and adjusted for the soon-to-be lower and cold-water temperatures that can make water aggressive (See LSI). Also, that calcium from the plaster is being dissolved by aggressive water and then somehow that causes calcium crystals to start growing on the plaster surface.

That raises some questions. If aggressive water is dissolving calcium carbonate, how does it also form and grow calcium carbonate crystals at the same time? Has the plaster surface been analyzed for LSI aggressive water attack for confirmation? Why don’t all plaster pools with aggressive water develop crystals? Of course, aggressive water doesn't add up as a credible cause.

Let’s explore some other possibilities for this crystal phenomenon.

Plaster Issues

What is not widely known in our industry is that when plaster workmanship is poor, two forms of soluble calcium can dissolve out of new plaster, without the water even being aggressive. Yes, in water that is perfectly balanced. Those plaster components are calcium hydroxide, and calcium chloride. When those two compounds “bleed” into the pool water, that increases the pH, alkalinity, and calcium level. Those increases should not automatically be assumed to have been caused by LSI aggressive water. It may be due to poorly made plaster.

It is worthy to note that the concrete and cement industry (ACI and PCA) acknowledges that cement quality, or lack thereof, plays a huge role in the amount of efflorescence and/or dusting (among other problems and defects) that develops on new concrete finishes. They have identified high water content while mixing, high calcium chloride content, and poor troweling techniques (excessive water troweling) as reasons leading to a weak, porous, and micro-cracking cement finish. Those are issues that enable efflorescence (calcium) to form on cement surfaces. Is pool plaster much different?

Are some plasterers adding extra calcium chloride to plaster mixes during colder temperatures to speed up the plastering process, so that it doesn’t take all day? Does this lead to calcium hydroxide and calcium chloride dissolving out of plaster regardless of the water balance, thereby increasing the pH, alkalinity, and calcium levels? Could this be a recipe for calcium crystals to develop? Yes.

Chemical Start-up Issues

Differences in startup chemistry processes can have a significant impact on new plaster surfaces. For twenty-five years, onBalance’s Bicarb startup (Positive LSI startup) has shown to help prevent “plaster dust” from forming in new plaster pools. Would that startup program help negate crystal formation over the winter?

The NPC’s Traditional startup does NOT prevent plaster dust in newly plastered pools. In fact, it enables it. A lot of plaster dust means that the plaster surface has lost material and becomes more porous which can lead to more soluble plaster material being easily dissolved out. Does this startup program contribute to the crystal formation problem?

We all know that improper water chemistry can lead to various problems. But it is obvious that there are other issues (and the plaster itself) that need to be investigated and analyzed to determine the cause(s) and prevention of wintertime crystals.
 
Ok interesting. The past year my CH has been rising. It's at 600 now and the CH test has been difficult to perform as well; I've had to post about that a few times here and find ways to make the test less subjective.

According to Pool Math, 600 is "within range", and no one here has seemed alarmed by the number. Sounds like there's a lot of uncertainty around why these are forming. Is my CH too high? What can/should I do at this point?
 
Calcium nodules …

Calcium Nodules in pools What are calcium nodules? In swimming pools and spas, they are small mounds, bumps, deposits, or “slag” piles of calcium carbonate which are formed from material that has been released from the plaster. The small calcium nodules are rough to the touch, hard, and generally gritty. Nodules may form singularly (far apart or sporadically), or many and close together along a crack in the plaster surface
 
Have a read through the post I quoted, and read through the whole thread (click on the "onBalance said" to get there).

It's not necessarily due to water chemistry. This issue of scale developing over winter can be an indication of poor workmanship during the build.
 
Use a paint scraper and knock it off the wall. You will see a pinpoint that is the calcium nodule it grew out of.
 
Maybe calcium sulfate, calcium phosphate or calcium carbonate.

Put the crystals in acid to see what happens.

Dissolve some in water and then test the TA, Calcium Hardness, Phosphate and Sulfate levels.

Dissolve 300 milligrams in 1 liter of water and this will produce 300 ppm of the substance.

If it is calcium carbonate, the CH and TA will be 300 ppm.
 

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Use a paint scraper and knock it off the wall. You will see a pinpoint that is the calcium nodule it grew out of.
I'm not sure what you're suggesting. You want me to partially drain the spa for this? And what do you mean by "pinpoint"?

I'll admit a lot of the information provided here is a bit overly scientific for me. Maybe that's unavoidable. But it's hard to understand it all.
 
A photo of the surface with the crystals would help.
I think I'd have to drain some water. I couldn't even see what it was until I picked some off with my fingernail. The surface isn't dense with the stuff like I'm seeing in the photos posted here. It's sparse. And they're not pillar-like
 
I'm not sure what you're suggesting. You want me to partially drain the spa for this? And what do you mean by "pinpoint"?

I'll admit a lot of the information provided here is a bit overly scientific for me. Maybe that's unavoidable. But it's hard to understand it all.
No draining required.

Just run the paint scraper along the plaster and the nodules wall pop off.

How widespread are the points?
 
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Are your spa and pool connected? Your PM logs only show Data for the pool, where even at 52°F the CSI is quite positive. You actually want to know what the CSI will be at spa temperature. Yes, with increasing temperature, pH will go down a bit, but pH is already maxed out on the comparator scale.

How much of it's time does the spa spend at operating temperature?

Run some tests at spa operating temperature and log the results separately. You can define multiple pools/spas in PoolMath.
 
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You are running your CSI a little bit too high.

You should keep the CSI down to about -0.3 to 0.0 and brush about 3 times a week for the next few weeks.
The CSI is high on my logs because it doesn't show what my pH is after I add MA. I always test *then* add, but my CSI is just below 0 actually because when I add that 12oz of MA it brings my pH down to 7.8 or so.
 
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