Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - Short vacation pH and FC question

[newdude]

Tell them that you will ensure that the CH stays in range and there will be no issues with low CH. They are used to people not maintaining their pools and you most CERTAINLY will be monitoring yours.

If you use hard water you will be draining the pool every year or two.

 

[mas985]

Keep in mind that a typical pool might lose 100 gallons per day or more through evaporation so it may require a very large water softener.

 

[Ahultin]

Keep in mind that a typical pool might lose 100 gallons per day or more through evaporation so it may require a very large water softener.

typically speaking that is similiar usage to 1 extra household member so if a household of 3 size for 4-5

 

[elwood58]

We are in Sun City West with a 15X30 and a second step Baja (10X10, 17” deep). We went with an IFCS, but also had a dedicated vacuum port installed. We also went with two Venturi skimmers. Our only water feature is 4 deck jets. We went all Pentair, including heat pump, SWCG, IntellipH. Fewer lights. We have a bench across one end and hidden steps along the Baja. We went the play pool profile. The pool has been up and running for six years. We do not use soft water for auto level, but had on a previous pool with great results.
Feel free to reach out with questions.

 

[Schwimmbad]

We bought a 50K grain softener and there are only 2 of us. I haven’t tested the water myself but others in my neighborhood said it is 18-20 gpg. From what I’ve read that seems plenty large enough. I had a person from Watertec (@JoyfulNoise talked them up) give me a quote and said the same thing that a pool looses the equivalent of about one person's daily water use.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Tell them that you will ensure that the CH stays in range and there will be no issues with low CH.

Is that what the plumber was saying? If CH gets low it will damage the plaster?

 

[MyAZPool]

@Schwimmbad
Here are my personal thoughts and experiences regarding the use of soft water for evaporation compensation (and for those that employ a DE or Sand Filter and require backwashing).

1. I use soft water to compensate for loss of water due to evaporation or water "splash-out" and I have been doing so now for 3 1/2 years.

2. When I first plumbed in a softened water line to my auto-fill leveler, my cH was approaching 800 ppm and climbing. At that time, I performed a partial drain which got it down to about 600ppm. Up until about 6 months ago, I was still using a sand filter, so I performed regular backwashes which caused the cH to decrease even further.

3. Currently, my cH is down to about 475ppm. My target is 400ppm. When it gets to that level, I plan to alternate between city (hard) water and softened water (I'll explain how in a moment). Maybe I'll rotate 2 months city and 2 months soft. I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Agree with @Newdude. Regular cH monitoring will insure that your cH will never fall below the minimum range.

4. The cH of the Chandler municipal water supply is about 200-250ppm. Buckeye water should be about the same. Upon initial fill (muni hard water of course), maybe you could start off compensating for evaporation with hard water and let your cH climb up to about 400ppm or so (The TFP recommended "Ideal" range is 350-550 ppm).

5. I'm running a Kinetico dual tank soft water system, so I am not really concerned with slightly increased re-generations of the softener or softener power consumption, since when one tank is regenerating the other is providing soft water. The tanks switch over automatically and as the name implies, it uses kinetic energy and not electricity for regeneration. Salt consumption for the softener increased by about 25%, after plumbing the soft water line to the pool auto refill line. A bit more salt consumption in the summer but still, it's not bad. For the house and the pool, I consume approximately 1 bag of salt per month on average.

6. Based on my experiences, @mas985 is about right on target. Back in 2018, I performed the famous "bucket test" calculations and it came out to about 79 gallons per day. Later, I added a flow meter to the auto refill line. Last year, my flow meter reported total water usage of a little over 28,000 gallons for the year. That's about 78 gallons a day for a pool surface area of 678 square feet.

7. This is my current setup to deliver soft (or hard) water to the pool auto-fill leveler...


I'm pretty sure that your city code will require a Vacuum Breaker Backflow Preventer in any case. I have one out at the front of the house for the hardwater line and a second one (as shown in the photo above), on the soft water line that comes from the inside house water supply.

As you can see in the photo, I have the means (through the use of ball valves), to deliver either hard water or soft water to the pool auto-fill leveler. That way, if my cH nears minimum recommend (for me that is below 400 ppm), then I can just switch over from soft water to hard water.

Hey, I hope some of this helps and good luck with your pool build.
r.

 

[Schwimmbad]

All I can say is wow @MyAZPool, that is extremely helpful! I continue to be amazed at the members here and the lengths they go to help others. My pool will be 566 SF and no cover planned so doing the rough math compared to your results I’d expect to ballpark my daily loss around 65 gallons a day over the course of the year.

I was boning up a little on CH by reading Calcium Hardness - Further Reading and it’s helpful as well. As I was reading that article there is an honorable mention of your setup with a link to your story on this topic. Great reading by the way, although it did leave me wondering if the roses now hide your beautiful plumbing and labeling! Then I got sucked into the rabbit hole that is @Dirk’s 175 post thread on this topic and didn’t have the stamina to take that thread on right now, I have to get up early for my day job, well at least for another month.

 

[jetranger]

@Schwimmbad
Here are my personal thoughts and experiences regarding the use of soft water for evaporation compensation (and for those that employ a DE or Sand Filter and require backwashing).

1. I use soft water to compensate for loss of water due to evaporation or water "splash-out" and I have been doing so now for 3 1/2 years.

2. When I first plumbed in a softened water line to my auto-fill leveler, my cH was approaching 800 ppm and climbing. At that time, I performed a partial drain which got it down to about 600ppm. Up until about 6 months ago, I was still using a sand filter, so I performed regular backwashes which caused the cH to decrease even further.

3. Currently, my cH is down to about 475ppm. My target is 400ppm. When it gets to that level, I plan to alternate between city (hard) water and softened water (I'll explain how in a moment). Maybe I'll rotate 2 months city and 2 months soft. I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Agree with @Newdude. Regular cH monitoring will insure that your cH will never fall below the minimum range.

4. The cH of the Chandler municipal water supply is about 200-250ppm. Buckeye water should be about the same. Upon initial fill (muni hard water of course), maybe you could start off compensating for evaporation with hard water and let your cH climb up to about 400ppm or so (The TFP recommended "Ideal" range is 350-550 ppm).

5. I'm running a Kinetico dual tank soft water system, so I am not really concerned with slightly increased re-generations of the softener or softener power consumption, since when one tank is regenerating the other is providing soft water. The tanks switch over automatically and as the name implies, it uses kinetic energy and not electricity for regeneration. Salt consumption for the softener increased by about 25%, after plumbing the soft water line to the pool auto refill line. A bit more salt consumption in the summer but still, it's not bad. For the house and the pool, I consume approximately 1 bag of salt per month on average.

6. Based on my experiences, @mas985 is about right on target. Back in 2018, I performed the famous "bucket test" calculations and it came out to about 79 gallons per day. Later, I added a flow meter to the auto refill line. Last year, my flow meter reported total water usage of a little over 28,000 gallons for the year. That's about 78 gallons a day for a pool surface area of 678 square feet.

7. This is my current setup to deliver soft (or hard) water to the pool auto-fill leveler...
View attachment 505554

I'm pretty sure that your city code will require a Vacuum Breaker Backflow Preventer in any case. I have one out at the front of the house for the hardwater line and a second one (as shown in the photo above), on the soft water line that comes from the inside house water supply.

As you can see in the photo, I have the means (through the use of ball valves), to deliver either hard water or soft water to the pool auto-fill leveler. That way, if my cH nears minimum recommend (for me that is below 400 ppm), then I can just switch over from soft water to hard water.

Hey, I hope some of this helps and good luck with your pool build.
r.
View attachment 505557

That's some great info!

I've been curious about this as well as I just filled my new build in Las Vegas about two months ago. One of my neighbors uses a small undersink RO system to refill his pool. He uses the waste line to water plants. I was interested in the RO system as well, but his system produces about 2 gallons of waste for every 1 gallon of filtered water. So, if the goal is to save water, it seems counterintuitive to use and RO system. Although, as a side note, the wastewater could technically be plumbed into a house drain/cleanout where it will get recycled by the city.

Does the Kinetico system have a waste line? Or does it output 100% of the water it brings in?

I'm all for saving water and/or power, but it seems to me that if every two years I can drain my pool into a cleanout (to get recycled by the city) it is much easier than plumbing in a soft water system.

If you have an opinion on anything I've written above, I'd love to hear.

Note - Las Vegas recycles all of the water that is sent down the drain. It was only $40 extra for my monthly bill to fill my pool (15k gal) for the first time. So, essentially, $40 every couple years to avoid plumbing in a water softener / RO system and deal with salt or any other issues.

 

[midlifecrisis]

@Schwimmbad
Here are my personal thoughts and experiences regarding the use of soft water for evaporation compensation (and for those that employ a DE or Sand Filter and require backwashing).

1. I use soft water to compensate for loss of water due to evaporation or water "splash-out" and I have been doing so now for 3 1/2 years.

2. When I first plumbed in a softened water line to my auto-fill leveler, my cH was approaching 800 ppm and climbing. At that time, I performed a partial drain which got it down to about 600ppm. Up until about 6 months ago, I was still using a sand filter, so I performed regular backwashes which caused the cH to decrease even further.

3. Currently, my cH is down to about 475ppm. My target is 400ppm. When it gets to that level, I plan to alternate between city (hard) water and softened water (I'll explain how in a moment). Maybe I'll rotate 2 months city and 2 months soft. I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Agree with @Newdude. Regular cH monitoring will insure that your cH will never fall below the minimum range.

4. The cH of the Chandler municipal water supply is about 200-250ppm. Buckeye water should be about the same. Upon initial fill (muni hard water of course), maybe you could start off compensating for evaporation with hard water and let your cH climb up to about 400ppm or so (The TFP recommended "Ideal" range is 350-550 ppm).

5. I'm running a Kinetico dual tank soft water system, so I am not really concerned with slightly increased re-generations of the softener or softener power consumption, since when one tank is regenerating the other is providing soft water. The tanks switch over automatically and as the name implies, it uses kinetic energy and not electricity for regeneration. Salt consumption for the softener increased by about 25%, after plumbing the soft water line to the pool auto refill line. A bit more salt consumption in the summer but still, it's not bad. For the house and the pool, I consume approximately 1 bag of salt per month on average.

6. Based on my experiences, @mas985 is about right on target. Back in 2018, I performed the famous "bucket test" calculations and it came out to about 79 gallons per day. Later, I added a flow meter to the auto refill line. Last year, my flow meter reported total water usage of a little over 28,000 gallons for the year. That's about 78 gallons a day for a pool surface area of 678 square feet.

7. This is my current setup to deliver soft (or hard) water to the pool auto-fill leveler...
View attachment 505554

I'm pretty sure that your city code will require a Vacuum Breaker Backflow Preventer in any case. I have one out at the front of the house for the hardwater line and a second one (as shown in the photo above), on the soft water line that comes from the inside house water supply.

As you can see in the photo, I have the means (through the use of ball valves), to deliver either hard water or soft water to the pool auto-fill leveler. That way, if my cH nears minimum recommend (for me that is below 400 ppm), then I can just switch over from soft water to hard water.

Hey, I hope some of this helps and good luck with your pool build.
r.
View attachment 505557

Do you mind sharing the Information on your flow meter? I'm trying to find one that I feel fits the need here and I've got a handfull.

 

[proavia]

You will fill your pool with hard water.
You will top off your pool with soft water.
Big difference.

And, of course, you will be testing your water for CH levels at least monthly - so you can determine whether to use soft water or hard water to keep your CH in target range.

As long as you have a hard water (unsoftened) outdoor hose bib and a long enough hose, you can fill with hard water and use the autofill with soft water. Of course, a setup like @MyAZPool has is ideal as the hard or soft source can be directed to the autofill.

 

[MyAZPool]

Great reading by the way, although it did leave me wondering if the roses now hide your beautiful plumbing and labeling!

@Schwimmbad
Thanks much.
Ha, too funny.... Yea, the roses do hide the plumbing a bit more but the wife keeps them trimmed up enough that I can still make my way back there in case I need to.
Thanks again.
r.

 

[MyAZPool]

That's some great info!

I've been curious about this as well as I just filled my new build in Las Vegas about two months ago. One of my neighbors uses a small undersink RO system to refill his pool. He uses the waste line to water plants. I was interested in the RO system as well, but his system produces about 2 gallons of waste for every 1 gallon of filtered water. So, if the goal is to save water, it seems counterintuitive to use and RO system. Although, as a side note, the wastewater could technically be plumbed into a house drain/cleanout where it will get recycled by the city.

Does the Kinetico system have a waste line? Or does it output 100% of the water it brings in?

I'm all for saving water and/or power, but it seems to me that if every two years I can drain my pool into a cleanout (to get recycled by the city) it is much easier than plumbing in a soft water system.

If you have an opinion on anything I've written above, I'd love to hear.

Note - Las Vegas recycles all of the water that is sent down the drain. It was only $40 extra for my monthly bill to fill my pool (15k gal) for the first time. So, essentially, $40 every couple years to avoid plumbing in a water softener / RO system and deal with salt or any other issues.

Thanks @jetranger
Interesting concept using the waste water like that.
To answer your question, the Kinetico softener does have a waste line that is plumbed into the washing machine drain line. The Kinetico dumps the waste water from it's regeneration cycles.
Thanks again.
r.

 

[MyAZPool]

Do you mind sharing the Information on your flow meter? I'm trying to find one that I feel fits the need here and I've got a handfull.

@midlifecrisis
In my research with several water meter companies, I discovered that most water meters out there (except ones that cost thousands of dollars) do not measure water flow rates below about .25 gallons (4 cups) per minute. That was a problem for me, as my SP Auto-fill Leveler runs constantly and mostly just drips water. I wanted to be able to accurately measure just how much water I used each and every month throughout the year. Especially since I am now using soft water for evaporation and backwash compensation. However, I did finally find a solution at a reasonable price.

I use a Clark Solutions PFA Turbine Flow Sensor and a Precision Digital PD6300 ProVu Pulse Input Flow Rate/Totalizer. I purchased both from Precision Digital. The way it works it that a static worm in the sensor, forces the passing water to spin. The spinning fluid drives a rotor with reflectors into a friction-less rotation. A high resolution infrared sensor determines the rate of flow by counting the passing reflections. This information (pulses) is transmitted to the digital display (PD6300), where it is interpreted and displayed in a highly accurate digital format.

You can see how the Turbine Flow Sensor is mounted/installed in the illustration in my post above. I then ran the 3 conducter wire from the Turbine Flow Sensor to the PD6300, in 1/2" PVC conduit over to the equipment pad where the PD6300 is mounted in my Adv Automation Enclosere (See photos below).



Hope this helps a bit and thanks.
r.

 

[KevMo]

@MyAZPool

I am intrigued by your metering solution. I am looking at adding a flow meter to track my water usagas well. I had the same concern about the 0.25 gpm minimum flow that the typical meters have. Can you share what model PFA you went with to cover your flow range? My fill water comes to my equipment pad in a 3/4" pipe that then tees off to my autofill and a couple of water spigots around the pool. Can you also show a picture of your installed PFA and any recommendations you have on installing it inline with my3/4" plumbing?

 

[MyAZPool]

@MyAZPool

Can you share what model PFA you went with to cover your flow range?

@KevMo
Oh yea, sorry... I should have mentioned that. The PFA is the "0085" Model.

Can you also show a picture of your installed PFA and any recommendations you have on installing it inline with my3/4" plumbing?

Just install like so... You can make up your wiring connection in a J-Box like I did, if your Flow Rate/Totalizer meter is NOT co-located with your PFA.



Thanks...
r.
p.s. If you have anymore questions, maybe shoot me a PM or create a new tread. I apologize to @Schwimmbad, if this whole water meter thing has hijacked his build thread.

 

[Schwimmbad]

I apologize to @Schwimmbad, if this whole water meter thing has hijacked his build thread.

No apology necessary, great reading and being an engineer I geek out on stuff, I will come back to this in the future, may want to replicate some of your ideas.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Back to a plumbing question. One plumber is saying the 2-2.5" 3-way diverter valves I purchased are too small since my main line will be 2.5" I need to get the 2.5"-3" valves. They are saying it doesn't make sense to install a 2.5" main line and restrict it with valves at 2". Is this true? Am I creating a problem? Do I need to change the valves? Calling @mas985 since you helped me out before with some plumbing questions.

My plumbing diagram is below and my equipment list is in post #79

 

[ajw22]

Those short 2" restrictions caused by your valves will not make a big difference.

 

[mas985]

Using the head loss numbers shown here:

https://www.poolsupplyunlimited.com/Products/Manuals/53125_2013811086.pdf

And that this would affect 2 branch ports and 2 through ports, the operating points for 100 GPM are as follows:

2"/2.5" - 2589 RPM @ 32' head loss & 1217 watts
2.5"/3" - 2291 GPM @ 21' head loss & 939 watts

Jandy shows a pretty big difference in head loss between the two types of valves (4.5:1) but I am not sure how accurate the measurements were done. Theoretically, the ratio should be more like 2:1.

Also, it is important to note that the larger valve will have less noise at high flow rates than the smaller valve.

At lower flow rates, it really won't make a big difference