New borate drop test at piscines-apollo vs. test strip

Jump to latest Follow Reply
What zollan said! I'd always been hoping for a drop test to validate my borates levels, and this test seems to work great (it correlates very well with predicted borate levels from PoolMath). Plus the instructions were very straightforward. Well done, you guys! (y)
(y)
 
HOO said:
I have been hibernating for the winter, but I checked out this thread today. Last year (see the bottom paragraph of post 138) you will see that I have tried the ClearWatersTesting borate test kit. There are two versions, $28 for commercial and $30 for residential customers. Only difference is the price. I had many email exchanges with Chris (ClearWatersTesting) and we tried various different tests and titrants but I could never get proper results. He told me he was using glycerin not mannitol but was considering changing to mannitol. I finally decided to ask for a refund and he promptly responded and even included the shipping cost. I have no idea what he is selling now, but Chris is earnest in developing a working borate test and is well versed in chemistry. However, I'm happy with the testing procedure found in this thread, so I'm not going to change, but I wanted to pass along this information.
Click to expand...

@JoyfulNoise
I am resurrecting and old conversation in this thread because I have recently been in touch with Chris at clearwaterstesting.com. I sent him a screen shot of this post and here is his response...
"That is great due diligence on your part. Yes I was having some customer issues a few years ago with the borate test kit, but after doing some research I found the issue was actually the titrant concentration, as the borate I purchased to test and standardize my concentrations was not as advertised from my supplier. Once I changed my titrant concentration, customers no longer had this issue, at most, as the kit is marketed, it would be +/-1 drop deviation which is +/- 5 ppm.

I can do this for you, I can make you a kit with two borate reagents, one with glycerin (glycerol) and one with mannitol and you can test them both. If you wouldn't mind, you could share your results on TroubleFree Pool using these two reagents.

Since I don't have any labels for the mannitol reagent, it will probably be a paper adhesive label and not my usual water-proof, UV-resistant label.

This could be a useful experiment both for your pool and my formulations. Please let me know how you would like to proceed.

Thanks,
~Chris"

It would seem based on his response that things have gotten better in his test kit. I am going to work with him and see what the results are and will post here once I am done.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JoyfulNoise
clone1008 said:
@JoyfulNoise
I am resurrecting and old conversation in this thread because I have recently been in touch with Chris at clearwaterstesting.com. I sent him a screen shot of this post and here is his response...
"That is great due diligence on your part. Yes I was having some customer issues a few years ago with the borate test kit, but after doing some research I found the issue was actually the titrant concentration, as the borate I purchased to test and standardize my concentrations was not as advertised from my supplier. Once I changed my titrant concentration, customers no longer had this issue, at most, as the kit is marketed, it would be +/-1 drop deviation which is +/- 5 ppm.

I can do this for you, I can make you a kit with two borate reagents, one with glycerin (glycerol) and one with mannitol and you can test them both. If you wouldn't mind, you could share your results on TroubleFree Pool using these two reagents.

Since I don't have any labels for the mannitol reagent, it will probably be a paper adhesive label and not my usual water-proof, UV-resistant label.

This could be a useful experiment both for your pool and my formulations. Please let me know how you would like to proceed.

Thanks,
~Chris"

It would seem based on his response that things have gotten better in his test kit. I am going to work with him and see what the results are and will post here once I am done.
Click to expand...

Sounds good, keep this thread updated.

The test that was described previously simply tried to use the reagents on hand to do the test as no one had access to reagent manufacturing. It would be great for ClearWater Testing to come up with a solid set of reagents. In the US, there are boron testing kits that use a similar approach but they are designed for soil testing and so they typically have an upper limit of 2ppm because soil boron levels are so low. The test wouldn't work well in a pool where the boron levels are 50ppm or more.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
Sounds good, keep this thread updated.

The test that was described previously simply tried to use the reagents on hand to do the test as no one had access to reagent manufacturing. It would be great for ClearWater Testing to come up with a solid set of reagents. In the US, there are boron testing kits that use a similar approach but they are designed for soil testing and so they typically have an upper limit of 2ppm because soil boron levels are so low. The test wouldn't work well in a pool where the boron levels are 50ppm or more.
Click to expand...
Will do, I too am excited to see what he has come up with. Here is the current link describing his kit.... Borate Alkalinity Test Kit
 
tfpdubld said:
I bought the kit and the smaller versions of mannitol & both the 0.5% bromothymol and 0.04% bromothymol to compare…i really don’t want to use test strips and tbh the colors on the strips make no sense to me. clearwater actually has 2 offerings, 1 stand alone and 1 as part of the home kit.

should it be mentioned in the borates further reading that there are 2 drop tests widely available for testing? or are test strips preferred for borates over drop tests by the forum? 😭
Click to expand...
The Borate test I've found to be accurate vs. actual additions is the procedure documented by @JoyfulNoise:

New borate drop test at piscines-apollo vs. test strip

Thanks, SunnyBlues. You have been reading and learning a LONG time to remember all those experts. Thanks for your testimonial.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

I bought the test kit from clear water testing.com. Use the @JoyfulNoise procedure.
 
Last edited:
I can't find a list of the contents of K2006. Does it include all the reagents necessary for this drop test? Thanks.
 
You need these in addition to the K2006, you may find other sizes/prices than these, just what I bought:

Mannitol, Powder, Ultra Pure, Reagent, 4 oz. (113.4 Grams): Other Products: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Mannitol, Powder, Ultra Pure, Reagent, 4 oz. (113.4 Grams): Other Products: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
www.amazon.com

Amazon.com: Hach 25532 Bromthymol Blue Indicator Solution, 100 mL MDB : Industrial & Scientific

Amazon.com: Hach 25532 Bromthymol Blue Indicator Solution, 100 mL MDB : Industrial & Scientific
www.amazon.com
1/8 or 1/4 tsp. measure
50mL beaker
Smart Stir is really a bonus with this test, makes it super simple.
 
Thanks. Just ordered everything. Moving to a house with a pool, first one for us, so been reading like crazy. The seller's been depending on water testing and products at Leslie's so will be interesting to find out what condition the pool is in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PoolStored

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
@JoyfulNoise

After the discussion in that other thread regarding use of a pH-Meter in the Borates test, I had a thought which might be better discussed here:

If the goal is to actually get pH down to 4.5 to drive out carbonate alkalinity, shouldn't it then be possible to avoid the BTB at all, if one tested TA beforehand anyway? And then use the normal Taylor phenol red around pH 7.4?

For example, with TA 60 one would need 6 drops of R-0009 in a 25ml TA-test. Then, with a 50ml BOR test sample, just add 12 drops of R-0009. Then add R-0004 (or at the beginning, probably doesn't matter), then R-0010 until orange. Then add Mannitol and titrate with R-0010 back to the same shade of orange.
 
The choice of indicator doesn’t really matter as long as it works in a range that is useful (the 7’s). I’ve never tried it with the R-0004 but it might work well enough. The test has been described in many different papers in the literature and people have even used phenolphthalein indicator (clear when acidic and pink when it’s near 8) or mixed indicators.

So feel free to give it a whirl … or perhaps a swirl … and see what happens.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mgtfp
So, I ran some tests, was a rainy Sunday afternoon.

First tested TA, came out as 70ppm (7 drops of R0009 in 25ml sample). That means in my 40ml borate tests, 7/25*40= ~11 drops should bring pH close to 4.5 (technically 11.2 drops, so with 11 drops I might still be a tad higher).

Then I started as usual with BTB, it took 9 drops of R0009 to turn indicator yellow, confirmed pH with pH-meter to be just below 6. Added the two missing drops, no change in shade of yellow noticeable, pH-meter confirmed pH to be just below 5. After that, I ditched the meter, just too fiddly for the actual titration. 1 drop of R0010 to turn pale blue, then Mannitol, then 9 drops of R0010 to turn to pale blue again, maybe a tad paler than before. Next drop turned it dark blue, telling me I'm a bit too far now. With my 40ml sample, 1 drop equals 5ppm boron. So, I'd call that 45ppm - I prefer to under- than overestimate the borate level to avoid overshooting when calculating MA-additions.

Then same setup with R0004 phenol red indicator instead of BTB. After a few drops of R0009 it turns bright yellow and I'm blind for further pH changes. Keep adding R0009 until at 11 drops. Then 1 drop of R0010 and it turns orange (pH ~7.3). Then Mannitol and 9 drops of R0010 to titrate to an orange that's still a little bit more yellowish than before. 1 more drop turns it deep purple. This transition from pale orange to purple was very impressive - a lot more impressive than the transition from pale to dark blue with BTB. So I'd say the same result as before with BTB, when using the same starting point with 11 drops of R0009 to get below pH 5, as derived from a separate TA-test.

Then I ran the test with BTB without using the information from the TA-test, and just added 9 drops of R0009 until straw yellow. As I have always done before. This time it took about 8 drops of R0010 to a still quite greenish blue, next drop turned it dark blue. I would have called that 40ppm (with the same reasoning as above), but probably a bit more underestimated than in the previous tests.

So, I guess within all the the tolerances pretty similar results. Using a separate TA-test to ensure to add enough R0009 to get to a pH ~4.5 titration start point seems to result in slightly higher borate levels than just starting with "straw yellow" (which one gets from about pH 6 downwards), but that doesn't seem to be too significant.

I was quite impressed by the phenol red (R0004) transition from orange to purple just after the endpoint (telling me I'm a bit too far once it's purple). Much more impressive than trying to find the right pale blue with BTB that turns a bit darker when gone too far.

For a standalone test, BTB seems to be the best indicator to cover the whole required pH-spectrum - just enough. But when doing a separate TA-test anyway which can be used to calculate the required number of R0009 drops to get pH down to the borate test starting point, then the R0004 phenol red seems to work well to find the titration end point. And much more colourful around the endpoint than BTB.
 
Just as a note with my own experience, I typically measure TA almost daily and if I’m doing a borate test then I almost always do a TA test. In that way, I always know how many drops of R-0009 to add to bottom out the alkalinity and I don’t rely on indicators to tell me how much to add. But, as you also found out, adding the precise amount of R-0009 at the beginning of the test isn’t going to change the test results all that much anyway.

Thanks for checking on the phenol red response. Good to know there’s a backup for the BTB. It would be nice to have a slightly different mix of reagents to help smooth the test out a bit - more concentrated R-0009 to adjust the pH in the beginning and then slightly less concentrated R-0010 to give better precision. BTB isn’t the greatest pH indicator as it is not very water soluble so a more intense color indicator would be better as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mgtfp
The use of R-0004 or R-0014 as the indicator for this test would seem to significant gain. For one it is one less thing folks would need to go out and buy to do test, and second it should eliminate the need for the R-0007 to be added since it already has a Chlorine inhibitor in it.

It also seems that if you have a spare dropper bottle creating a bottle of R-0010 that has been diluted 1:1 or 1:3 with distilled water should be a fairly easy task to do with reasonable precision.
 
flynwill said:
it should eliminate the need for the R-0007 to be added since it already has a Chlorine inhibitor in it.
Click to expand...

I was thinking about that when running the test. My current FC is 9ppm, so technically below 10ppm. On the other hand, there is no magical cut off line. If you are a bit above 10ppm and work fast, the R0004 test still works, but you also read enough reports here from members asking if it is normal that the test turns red after sitting on the bench for a while. The borate test is not exactly a fast test (for a pool test), and I'd still be worried about phenol red turning into chlorphenol red, so I still used some R0007.
 
There’s no downside to using the R-0007 reagent to neutralize the chlorine a remove that variable. Every kit has so much R-0007 in it that it’s more of waste to not use it and let it expire (although it rarely ever expires 😉)
 
JoyfulNoise said:
There’s no downside to using the R-0007 reagent to neutralize the chlorine a remove that variable. Every kit has so much R-0007 in it that it’s more of waste to not use it and let it expire (although it rarely ever expires 😉)
Click to expand...

Quite right. If there is one reagent I have in surplus, it's Thiosulfate.

Do you know of any cake recipes that need Thiosulfate?
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply