Bullfrog hot tub

[h20proof]

@JoyfulNoise @RDspaguy : I'm about to purchase a Bullfrog A8 with EOS ozonator and I appreciate your input. Both of you make compelling arguments. I was already on the fence about should I or shouldn't I get the 24/7 circulation pump (I was told they can't be programmed but the jet pump can be). I was leaning towards not getting one and just running the jet pump 2 hrs twice a day (plus whenever it's heating).

After reading both of your replies, I'm confused. I'm surprised the maker of EOS doesn't have input on this topic...

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I’m not sure I understand the setup. The ozonator should only run when the circulation pump is running. Also, without a circulation pump, the water will not get heated continuously which means your tub will get cold.

Perhaps you can be more specific on the setup you want??

 

[h20proof]

Bullfrog A8 comes with 2 jet pumps, no dedicated circulation pump. One jet pump runs twice a day for 2hrs each time to maintain the water (by default, but this could be increased or decreased). It also runs when needed for heat.
I could be mistaken, but I thought your stance was that this amount of time was ideal for the ozonator to run. And @RDspaguy was saying that the ozonator should run 24/7 to be useful. I could purchase a 24/7 circulation pump that would accomplish this, but I would only want to do that if necessary (according to your post I thought you said it wasn't necessary).

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Are you planning to use bromine as your sanitizer or chlorine?

 

[Biggen]

I'm neither of these guys but to give you some more data points, I have a Hotspring Relay with an ozonator and no recirc pump. Pump #1 for me runs twice a day in 2 hour increments (4 hours total) so similar to what you stated above.. The ozonater comes on only when pump #1 turns on. I run a bromine 3-step system using a floater. I have my floater set about as low as I can adjust it and I still easily maintain bromine levels in the 7 - 8 ppm during the week which is on the high side. I could potentially even remove the floater during the mid-week when the spa doesn't get use (we mainly are weekend hot tubbers) and the ozonator would seem to keep up with the demand just fine.

So is a 24/7 recirc pump needed? Probably depends on your usage. Conventional wisdom says the more you run water through your filters the better it will be but there is probably diminishing returns somewhere along the line. For us, it wouldn't have been needed since we only use the spa 3 days a week max. Our water is crystal clear and our sanitizer levels are more than adequate.

 

[phonedave]

A circulation pump is an option in a Bullfrog Spa.

When you have 2 Jet Pumps and no circulation pump (like I do - my second jet pump is an option in my A6, in an 8, two jet pumps are standard) the first jet pump acts as a circulation pump.

When you are using Jet 1 as a circulation pump it runs according to the filtration schedule (while you can set) and when the system calls for heat.

My understanding is that the dedicated circulation pump can also be programmed, it does not have to run 24/7

If you have ozone, it only runs during a filter cycle, and if you interrupt the filter cycle (by activating jets) it stops the ozone production.

@RDspaguy is of the opinion that ozone is only really useful if you are using it 24/7 (except when using the tub). He has been in the spa business for a long time, is usually correct in his assessments, and when he is not he admits it (he did not think AhhSome was worth it, then he did his own tests, and came back and said it works). I tend to trust his opinions.

I have a Bullfrog A6 with no circulation pump and ozone. Maybe it is useless, maybe not. I don't think it is harming anything (except my wallet). In hindsight, maybe I should have added a circulation pump as well. Using Jet 1 as a circulator does not seem to use excessive electricity for me, and the noise is not an issue, but maybe the circulator would have been nice to have as well.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The biggest problem with ozone isn’t the chemistry, it’s the equipment. First of all, there’s no way to test for ozone or know that the unit is actually working and putting out the amount of ozone stated in the manufacturers materials. So you are literally flying blind and going on faith that it’s working. Secondly, most spa based ozone generators are “toys” … they are not robustly manufacturers and they are relying on atmospheric oxygen levels to create ozone … not a good choice. At some point I their lifetime, usually with a year or two, they get fouled up enough that they stop generating ozone even though the discharge is still active. So they often look like they are doing something even though they are no longer producing ozone gas in any appreciable quantities.

All of that is to say that hot tub ozonator really can’t be relied upon for proper sanitation. They’re nice to have if they work, but you shouldn’t put your hopes in one saving you from inadequate sanitation.

 

[Biggen]

The biggest problem with ozone isn’t the chemistry, it’s the equipment. First of all, there’s no way to test for ozone or know that the unit is actually working and putting out the amount of ozone stated in the manufacturers materials. So you are literally flying blind and going on faith that it’s working. Secondly, most spa based ozone generators are “toys” … they are not robustly manufacturers and they are relying on atmospheric oxygen levels to create ozone … not a good choice. At some point I their lifetime, usually with a year or two, they get fouled up enough that they stop generating ozone even though the discharge is still active. So they often look like they are doing something even though they are no longer producing ozone gas in any appreciable quantities.

All of that is to say that hot tub ozonator really can’t be relied upon for proper sanitation. They’re nice to have if they work, but you shouldn’t put your hopes in one saving you from inadequate sanitation.

They do make ozone detectors. You can rent them from this company. I've actually thought about renting their more expensive low detection range devices as I have an UV/ionizer/plasma generator in my house HVAC system and I want to make sure it isn't generating ozone in my house air ducts. I don't know how you could test water ozone levels but its my understanding that ozone in water doesn't stick around long anyway.

But for a spa the easiest test to see if it's actually outputting is to just use your nose. When I open my cover I can easily smell the rotten ozone smell. It hits me right in the face. That's not to say it's really doing anything of course but I do believe it is outputting O3 at some level.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

They do make ozone detectors. You can rent them from this company. I've actually thought about renting their more expensive low detection range devices as I have an UV/ionizer/plasma generator in my house HVAC system and I want to make sure it isn't generating ozone in my house air ducts. I don't know how you could test water ozone levels but its my understanding that ozone in water doesn't stick around long anyway.

But for a spa the easiest test to see if it's actually outputting is to just use your nose. When I open my cover I can easily smell the rotten ozone smell. It hits me right in the face. That's not to say it's really doing anything of course but I do believe it is outputting O3 at some level.

You can’t test ozone in water, it’s only soluble to about 1 gram per liter but that is at near freezing temperature. In hot water, there is no appreciable solubility. Also, the odor threshold of ozone is roughly 10-20 parts per billion … about 0.01mg in a cubic meter of air … so smell is not much of an indicator either. Most hot tubs use a Venturi tube to suck air through the generator and into the water return line of the tub so it would not be easy to sample the output of the generator.

I’m not against using ozone, it’s just not very practical or reliable. TFP tries to teach water care based on reliable and measurable chemistry … the implementation of ozone generation in hot tubs doesn’t allow for that. So, you may or may not have enough ozone to matter, and it’s not easy to quantify.

 

[phonedave]

They do make ozone detectors. You can rent them from this company. I've actually thought about renting their more expensive low detection range devices as I have an UV/ionizer/plasma generator in my house HVAC system and I want to make sure it isn't generating ozone in my house air ducts. I don't know how you could test water ozone levels but its my understanding that ozone in water doesn't stick around long anyway.

But for a spa the easiest test to see if it's actually outputting is to just use your nose. When I open my cover I can easily smell the rotten ozone smell. It hits me right in the face. That's not to say it's really doing anything of course but I do believe it is outputting O3 at some level.

Bullfrog EOS is a batch system. Water is drawn into a canister and the canister closed, the ozone is generated and bubbled through the water, excess gas is vented through a charcoal filter, the water is then returned to the tub.

There is no ozone in the water or in the air. You would have to test the atmosphere of the canister pre the charcoal filter.

I consider my system a nice to have. But bleach is the real workhorse of my tub's sanitation regiment.

 

[Biggen]

Very good information guys. Learned more about O3 today!

 

[h20proof]

Are you planning to use bromine as your sanitizer or chlorine?

Leaning towards Chlorine, but not 100% firm on that

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Leaning towards Chlorine, but not 100% firm on that

If you use chlorine then ozone is superfluous. It’ll do its thing but it’s not going to be all that much better than just running chlorine. If you want to really have a chlorine tub that stays clean, use a drape-over SWG like the Saltron Mini. Then the tub will have a constant source of FC and remain very stable and clean.

 

[RDspaguy]

Yikes! Ok, no time to read all of that right now so forgive me if I repeat anything somebody else said.

could be mistaken, but I thought your stance was that this amount of time was ideal for the ozonator to run. And @RDspaguy was saying that the ozonator should run 24/7 to be useful. I could purchase a 24/7 circulation pump that would accomplish this, but I would only want to do that if necessary (according to your post I thought you said it wasn't necessary).

To be clear, what I advise are systems DESIGNED for 24/7 ozone. There is much more to it than simply run time, it's the way it's plumbed as well.
There is an ideal run time, which will vary by tub and use. Newer systems are programmeable, older ones ran 24/7. Excessive use will deplete free chlorine. Not a bad thing the way I use it.
I do not advise adding a 24hr circ pump to your spa, as it will void your warranty and benefit you little for your investment, assuming that it can be plumbed in at all.
Hope that helps.

 

[h20proof]

now I'm more confused...
Does anyone know if the EOS specifically works best with a 24/7 circ pump or with the standard jet pump (4+ hrs a day). Or which it was designed for to best utilize this technology?

Are you saying even the Wellspring 24/7 pump option from the dealer would void a warranty? I've had different bullfrog dealer reps give different opinions on whether or not i should get the circ pump, so not sure the BEST way to run EOS.

We'll be using the hot tub 3 to 5 times per week at night. I've heard that too much ozone can be harsh on the tub surface, neck pads, etc. Is there truth to that? or does EOS eliminate that problem?

@JoyfulNoise , I'd rather run bromine than go through all that trouble of SWG. Does bromine work better with ozonators?

 

[RDspaguy]

24/7 pump option from the dealer would void a warranty?

Not if it's from the dealer. DIY is another story.

I've heard that too much ozone can be harsh on the tub surface

Old spas that were not plumbed properly to contain the ozone until depleted and injected it directly into the footwell would do all kinds of damage. Nobody that I know of has done it that way for a good decade or better. Certainly not a quality tub like bullfrog.

Does bromine work better with ozonators?

No... yes... maybe...
The first ozone systems were meant to oxidise bromide into bromine at a time when every spa used bromine (yeah, I'm that old). In theory it works. In practice... well, people who use bromine never notice the ozonator die. Bromine makes me itch so I have no personal experience there, but this was the first system I learned, at a Sundance dealer.
FWIW, I do not recommend bromine, but have known many people who swear by it.

 

[h20proof]

For what it's worth, I ended up ordering the A8 with EOS ozonator and no circ pump. It was a toss up to begin with and the dealer convinced me I didn't need the circ pump.
Wish me luck.
Thanks for all the great feedback!

 

[Davekro]

For what it's worth, I ended up ordering the A8 with EOS ozonator and no circ pump. It was a toss up to begin with and the dealer convinced me I didn't need the circ pump.
Wish me luck.
Thanks for all the great feedback!

Bullfrogs EOS Ozone System, like @phonedave said, is a unique ozone system, in that it injects ozone into a mixing chamber, then that Ozone infused water, to my (limited) understanding, is sent into the hot tub. The EOS system does not pump O3 directly into the tub like what is normally referred to here and everywhere as "Ozone". Bull frog offers its proprietary canister mixed Ozone system called EOS. They SAY is produces and imparts into the water far more ozone when it is running than the normal simple 'ozone generator'. Bullfrog sells that option too, it's called Wellspring.

The misnomer when referring to a circulation pump, is that some manufacturers use a VERY low powered circulation pump that runs 24/7, so many here just wrongly assume when they hear circ. Pump, that is what is being referred to, since that type is are so common. I was in your exact same boat when shopping for my A6L Bullfrog. I asked a lot of questions about if I needed a Circulation Pump in my Bullfrog. Even though I would describe that when Bullfrog says Circulation pump, they mean a full sized pump, not quite as strong as a jet pump maybe, but a fully programmable (to schedule) EXACTLY like a Jet pump. It is NOT a 24/7 low volume pump. But that did not get understood. People heard circ. pump and filled in their assumptions.

I ended up exactly like you, w/o a Bullfrog programmable circ. pump, but with the Bullfrog Proprietary EOS 'mixing chamber' Ozone system. It runs when the twice per day scheduled filtration happens, and I think when heat is called for and pump #1 runs (my default on my 310 gal A6L is 1.5 hours. 2x per day). I was quoted an amazing price on a two-month-old dry floor model 2023 A6L that came w/ EOS & w/o the Bullfrog programmable circ. pump. Like phonedave, I thought it would be good to have that Bullfrog Circ pump. but not if it meant spending $2k more to ORDER a new A6L to get the Bullfrog programmable circ. pump.

As I was down to the wire needing to commit to that floor model deal tub, @CanadianSpaTech pointed me to a thread where @JoyfullNoise said that Bullfrog's mixing chamber version of an ozone system was the good way to use ozone in a more efficient manner. That coupled with the fact that Bullfrog does not put their programmable circ. pump in any (A Series at least) Bullfrog tubs UNLESS YOU ORDER IT THAT WAY! That gave enough weight to the salesman saying "you do not need it". So I pulled the trigger on the great deal on my A6L Select w/ EOS and have not regretted it.

Here is my thread in another forum (before finding this one), Where I asked tons of questions about Bullfrog's EOS Ozone and Bullfrog's programmable Circ. pump.
Order new tub With Circulation pump-or- Without? Why or Why Not?
See @JoyfullNoise 's post #14 on this thread below that made me feel good that my selected Bullfrog floor model 'deal' had the Bullfrog proprietary EOS Ozone System.

Installing an EOS ozone generator in a Bullfrog R7 hot tub​

@h20proof ,
Also, the EOS system has a carbon filter that the absorbs what off gasses from the mixing chamber. I had the panel off on the left side of the tub, where the EOS system is mounted. I noticed the carbon filter said to replace in 2 years. Bullfrog's price for that filter is around $95 IIRC. LOL QUITE a margin on THAT product! ;o) I looked into it a bit, and I am pretty sure it is simply a regular carbon filter like you use for water filtration. Those can be bought for between $10-20. I am pretty sure carbon is all that reacts with the off gasses, period. I figure when it comes time to get a new one, I can just cut my old one open and 1) confirm it is only carbon inside, and 2) what form of carbon (powdered, granules, block, or what ever).

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Bullfrogs EOS Ozone System, like @phonedave said, is a unique ozone system, in that it injects ozone into a mixing chamber, then that Ozone infused water, to my (limited) understanding, is sent into the hot tub. The EOS system does not pump O3 directly into the tub like what is normally referred to here and everywhere as "Ozone". Bull frog offers its proprietary canister mixed Ozone system called EOS. They SAY is produces and imparts into the water far more ozone when it is running than the normal simple 'ozone generator'. Bullfrog sells that option too, it's called Wellspring.

The misnomer when referring to a circulation pump, is that some manufacturers use a VERY low powered circulation pump that runs 24/7, so many here just wrongly assume when they hear circ. Pump, that is what is being referred to, since that type is are so common. I was in your exact same boat when shopping for my A6L Bullfrog. I asked a lot of questions about if I needed a Circulation Pump in my Bullfrog. Even though I would describe that when Bullfrog says Circulation pump, they mean a full sized pump, not quite as strong as a jet pump maybe, but a fully programmable (to schedule) EXACTLY like a Jet pump. It is NOT a 24/7 low volume pump. But that did not get understood. People heard circ. pump and filled in their assumptions.

I ended up exactly like you, w/o a Bullfrog programmable circ. pump, but with the Bullfrog Proprietary EOS 'mixing chamber' Ozone system. It runs when the twice per day scheduled filtration happens, and I think when heat is called for and pump #1 runs (my default on my 310 gal A6L is 1.5 hours. 2x per day). I was quoted an amazing price on a two-month-old dry floor model 2023 A6L that came w/ EOS & w/o the Bullfrog programmable circ. pump. Like phonedave, I thought it would be good to have that Bullfrog Circ pump. but not if it meant spending $2k more to ORDER a new A6L to get the Bullfrog programmable circ. pump.

As I was down to the wire needing to commit to that floor model deal tub, @CanadianSpaTech pointed me to a thread where @JoyfullNoise said that Bullfrog's mixing chamber version of an ozone system was the good way to use ozone in a more efficient manner. That coupled with the fact that Bullfrog does not put their programmable circ. pump in any (A Series at least) Bullfrog tubs UNLESS YOU ORDER IT THAT WAY! That gave enough weight to the salesman saying "you do not need it". So I pulled the trigger on the great deal on my A6L Select w/ EOS and have not regretted it.

Here is my thread in another forum (before finding this one), Where I asked tons of questions about Bullfrog's EOS Ozone and Bullfrog's programmable Circ. pump.
Order new tub With Circulation pump-or- Without? Why or Why Not?
See @JoyfullNoise 's post #14 on this thread below that made me feel good that my selected Bullfrog floor model 'deal' had the Bullfrog proprietary EOS Ozone System.

Installing an EOS ozone generator in a Bullfrog R7 hot tub​

@h20proof ,
Also, the EOS system has a carbon filter that the absorbs what off gasses from the mixing chamber. I had the panel off on the left side of the tub, where the EOS system is mounted. I noticed the carbon filter said to replace in 2 years. Bullfrog's price for that filter is around $95 IIRC. LOL QUITE a margin on THAT product! ;o) I looked into it a bit, and I am pretty sure it is simply a regular carbon filter like you use for water filtration. Those can be bought for between $10-20. I am pretty sure carbon is all that reacts with the off gasses, period. I figure when it comes time to get a new one, I can just cut my old one open and 1) confirm it is only carbon inside, and 2) what form of carbon (powdered, granules, block, or what ever).

Do keep in mind that, even though Bullfrog has adopted a better approach to ozone mixing, corona discharge ozone generators that are air-sourced have very limited lifetimes. There is no easy way to know when an ozone unit stops producing ozone so you may want to check in with Bullfrog to see what the maintenance cycle is for the CD generators. Commercial ozone systems have modular designs that all you to replace CD cells once they start to foul up. I don’t think the actual generators have been improved much so expect replacements to be on an 18 month to 2 year time frame. Bullfrog should be able to tell you what to expect …

 

[Davekro]

Do keep in mind that, even though Bullfrog has adopted a better approach to ozone mixing, corona discharge ozone generators that are air-sourced have very limited lifetimes. There is no easy way to know when an ozone unit stops producing ozone so you may want to check in with Bullfrog to see what the maintenance cycle is for the CD generators. Commercial ozone systems have modular designs that all you to replace CD cells once they start to foul up. I don’t think the actual generators have been improved much so expect replacements to be on an 18 month to 2 year time frame. Bullfrog should be able to tell you what to expect …

On my 2023 A6L Bullfrog, the only part of the EOS Ozone system that mentions a replacement timeframe, is the actual charcoal filter (2 years). The EOS ozone generator has no marking on the unit itself, and is not mentioned in the manual. Since Bullfrog has not responded to any of several phone calls (goes to VM unless VM box is full) nor their websites messaging app, I don't know how to find out what to expect on the EOS's life expectancy. I have wondered since a standard ozone generator, which is often coupled with a low powered 24/7 circ. pump an is usually recommended to replace yearly, that since Bullfrog EOS's generator runs 3 hrs/ day plus heating time, it's time for ozone diminishing production, might be a longer period. Who knows.