Which kind of 3 way valve? positive? negative?

[pypeke]

Hi, all! Our old 3 way diverter valve is a Compool and was leaking last year. We can't get it open to lube it so I thought we would put a new valve on. It is not leaking this year, but it is only a matter of time. It is probably original equipment and might be 20 years old or more. I got information last year on this site on how to cover the main drain so we can put a ball valve and a new diverter on, but I still don't understand which 3 way valve to buy.

1. Because the main drain does not have a cut off valve, we will install one. Do we want to install a BALL valve? (or a different kind of valve?)

Put the ball valve on the main drain pipe that comes out of the concrete? I don't know why that main drain 1.5" pipe hasn't frozen and burst in the winter, but it has been like that for 20+ years. We can't empty the water out of the main drain at all.



2. Where the old Compool 3 way valve is, we need to put a new 3 way, but it said something about positive or negative seal. What is internal & external stop?

Any suggestions for brands? I want one that is easy to clean out. plumbing is 1.5" coming out of pool into the 3 way and 2" going out of 3 way to the pump.

JANDY MODELS

4715	Jandy Pro Series Neverlube 1 1/2" - 2", Positive Seal 3 Port Valve

or

4945	Jandy Pro Series Neverlube 1 1/2-2" Positive Seal, 3 Port Valve, internal & external stop, B23

3. We think we should put a check valve (picture below) near our pump because every time we open the pump to clean out the basket, the water in that pipe goes back into the pool. From the pump the pipe drops 1 ft down through the deck, a 90° elbow, goes horizontal for 10 ft, a 90° elbow, goes horizontal 7 ft, a 90° elbow, then goes down about 7 ft Even if I put the water hose in the pump basket, it never fills up. The basket is empty by the time I get the cover back on. It takes 3-4 minutes or maybe longer to prime and I know that is not good for the pump. When we had the plumbers do all of this, they installed a ball valve. That was their solution which didn't work.




4. Another problem (picture below) is the BLUE ball valve does not let us drain the return lines to winterize. Water just sits there because the blue valve pipe is about 4" lower than the red ball valve. We can put the plugs in the return jets to stop water from leaving the pool, but that still leaves water stuck inside where the BLUE ball valve is (about 18"). The RED ball valve lets all water out of the return line (up above) from the filter so it won't freeze. The union right after the 3 way valve disconnects to drain water out of the lines (up above) going into the pump.





This pretzel-like plumbing mess cost about $800.00 last year. (We pay every year for a new plumber to fix the mess.)
We have decided that we are fixing everything ourselves from now on. There is a lot of head loss with the number of elbows and length of pipe.

So any suggestions? Thanks for your help.

 

[needsajet]

Yeh, that's a rat's nest alright, and glad to hear you're going to optimize it Thanks for the pics which are really helpful.

Before getting into specifics, there's a question or two I think others might be wondering...

Looks like the pump was originally down with the booster pump. Why was the pump moved up onto the patio? Does it have to stay there? Could you add an overall picture of where the pump sits and its surroundings?

Since you haven't had freeze damage, is it an option to keep the pool open through winter? (sorry I don't know Oklahoma weather, so no surprise if that's a stupid question, haha)

Are you near the point of abandoning the booster pump (if it's for a cleaner), or is it there for something else?

 

[pypeke]

In 2007, we lost electricity for 3 weeks due to an ice storm, so we do get freezing temps below 0° F sometimes. Oklahoma gets all the extremes! -12°F to 112°F.

2 years ago the lake flooded for the first time since it was created. For years the pump was even with the bottom of the pool. (See rock wall picture.) When the lake flooded 2 years ago, both pumps and all of the plumbing was under water for about 3 weeks. It flooded again before we had purchased a new pump. So we had to move everything up on the deck up above. We even had to move the electrical panel because we couldn't shut off the box until the water receded and everything dried out. We have just owned the house since 2011.

In the picture of the deck, the old pump was directly under the wood about 7 ft down. There was no place else to put the pump and filter.

We did not replace the polaris pump. We bought a robotic cleaner.

An expensive mess ever since the lake flooded. These pics were taken right after the flood. All of the trees you see died later that year.

thanks

 

[needsajet]

I'll cover a few things, and then think about it, or someone else will jump in.

The pool power should come from your service entrance (main breaker box) and there should be, or could be added, a breaker or two to shut off all the pool equipment. It's actually a good idea for everyone swimming to know where that is, or another nearby shutoff.

WRT valves, it's actually positive and non-positive. Only buy positive seal valves, except occasionally and by definition for solar heating. Not positive is a valve that leaks. My opinion, only buy Jandy Neverlube valves. The stops allow you to limit how far the valve gate will travel. Not really needed, unless you're adding electric actuators which have their own stops anyway. Avoid ball valves generally, but definitely don't have them in the sun. They all seem to get old and seize eventually, although if protected from the sun it takes a life time. Out in full sun, they start to get bad in a few years.

To make a drain, you use a Tee in whatever size needed but tip the outlet down far enough that the Tee would drain with the outlet open, leaving enough room underneath for a stub, male threaded adapter and a threaded cap. If you're fully draining, create a way to attach a shop vac or compressor and blow the lines after you're done draining. Or use freeze protection pumping and keep the pool open.

If the water came up only part way, I'd consider filter on the ground under the deck (water wont hurt the filter unless it's rock em sock em turbulent), and mount the pump on a shelf. I have a relo with a pool in that situation. It's actually remarkably convenient having the pump, control box and salt water chlorinator all up at 4 feet out of reach of little ones. Even 5 feet wouldn't be horrible.

The check valve on pump intake hastens priming a bit, but isn't needed. If air is getting in, there's a leak somewhere that is fixable, but not necessarily easily. But even with a few leaks and drain down, if the pump primes, no harm is done by a few minutes. There's water moving and keeping things cool. Mine is better located and plumbed and takes around 1.5 minutes to prime. You only need to add water to the pump basket once (after install or remove/repair). After that, the pump strainer area just needs to be filled somewhere below the bottom of the inlet pipe, but above the pump intake lower down inside the strainer.

In the original post, I just want to confirm or clarify... did you mean that no water can come from the main drain anymore? i.e. main drain is blocked?

 

[Realaxpooltech]

If the horizontal pipes are right under the deck, and above the water level of the pool, then you have all that distance until the pipes drop vertically before it sees water, now if the pipes were a foot or so lower and ran horizontally they should then be below pool water level and should have water in them. When the pool shuts off, the water then should stay in the 10', 7', horizontal run under deck, because the pipes are below pool water level.

So do you know if that horizontal run under deck is above or below water level?

If it is above, then every time the pump shuts off, the water in the pipe seeks the level of the pool, this means when the pump turns back on it has to compensate for the empty pipe length when it primes, where if it were a foot lower, or below water level, it would keep the water in the pipe when the pump shuts off.

What you should see in the vertical pipe that goes into the deck from the pump is water in the pipe, if you were to cut that vertical pipe from the horizontal section going into the pump, and look down the vertical pipe, you should see water, this would tell you the horizontal run indeed has water in it also, because it is below water level of pool,

I am thinking no, it's not below, and you have to refill all that pipe again with water during priming, it is never an ideal situation to have pool equipment elevated above water level, or below it, water seeks it's own level as long as you don't have any of the piping from the pool to the pump rise above it at any point, so every where the pipes that start at the bottom of the pool (your pool) and rise up to eventually meet the pump inlet, as long as they don't rise above the water level at any point in there journey to the pump, should have water in them until they are close to the pump where the vertical pipe goes above the water level, now if the pipes basically go straight up, and above level, then go horizontally to pump the remainder of the way, this horizontal run when pump is off will drain down to seek the water level of pool.

 

[pypeke]

needsajet, thank you. We still use the main drain. It is not blocked. Ok so Jandy positive never lube is the one to get. After several weeks under the lake water, both pumps would not work so the standing water and mud caused a problem. Our lake is really a reservoir. It is a fishing lake...lots of muddy water because of muddy rivers flowing into it. Snakes were everywhere when it flooded so we don't want to wade to get to equipment. Plus it is a pain to walk around the yard to get underneath the deck.

As far as priming the pump, even after filling the basket, the water sits below the hole (impeller hole) so there are only a few inches of water in it after I fill the basket. There is absolutely ZERO water coming into the pump basket for 5 minutes. So the impeller has no water getting to it until it begins trickling into the basket after about 3-4 minutes. By 5 minutes, it finally gets primed but there are large bubbles of air under the pump lid.


realaxpooltech, thanks. The water stays in the pipes when the pump is off. The problem is when I open the pump lid to clean out the basket. The pipes are about level with the pool surface. The concrete pool deck is level with the wooden part of the deck. The water sits about 6-8" below the concrete deck. I guess the plumbers put them up high so we could duck under them.

So you are saying that we should lower the horizontal run of pipe to keep it below water level of the pool... that makes sense. A few inches? or should we put the horizontal pipes about a foot or two off of the ground? Will that help with the priming problem when the basket has been cleaned out?

Just a straight run of pipes until we HAVE to go vertical? Then a 90° elbow and an 8 ft vertical pipe to the pump. I won't need a check valve.


Or... should we start on the left side (from the 3 way diverter) with pipes low to the ground then gradually raise the horizontal pipes up at an angle to the right (no elbows and keeping pipes below water level) until we HAVE to go to a vertical pipe? No 90° elbows, but we will need elbows of some kind. So start low on the left but end up high on the left at water level? That would leave only about a foot of vertical pipe.

Yesterday a noise started coming from the pump after cleaning out the basket and while trying to prime. Not a normal sound.

Once you said it, it made sense to me.The way our plumbers installed the pipes left a very long section of pipe (up high) AFTER that vertical pipe. They should have put only one vertical pipe right before going into the pump. We have 7 ft vertical then about 17 ft before the second vertical pipe. Geez, no wonder it takes forever to prime.

I assume we can leave the return pipe exactly where it is? No need to move it lower?

thanks!

 

[needsajet]

It's a really good idea getting the long runs below pool water level. As far as priming, the routing won't matter, except to stay below pool water level as far as you can. For me, probably along the wall about a foot below water level. I'd move the main drain / skimmer 3-way valve so I had it at the pump. The only thing I'd have down below is the drain fittings.

 

[pypeke]

Needsajet, Thanks for your help. The only concern I have about moving the 3 way valve is when we close it for winter. There is no way to close the main drain. I would love to have that valve on the deck, but that would leave a long section of pipe full of water all winter and Oklahoma has been known to have freezing temperatures and even go below 0°F.

 

[needsajet]

I hear ya, for sure, and I'd still have the drains at the low point on each line, to facilitate closing.

 

[Realaxpooltech]

I would lower all horizontal lengths of pipe that are above water level at least 6'' below water level, or whatever it takes to lower them below level until there is no interference from deck or anything else, so from the point the pipes rise up from the ground until they make there horizontal journey to the vertical pipe that goes into the deck to meet the pump make sure all horizontal pipe lengths are below water level of pool.

Regular plumbers are not the ones to hire, you should hopefully have at least some reputable pool builders or service companies around "hopefully" in your area.

 

[pypeke]

sound good. It will be my next project. I can put a 3 way down on the ground level below the deck for winter drainage and another one up on the deck so I can have easier access to adjust how much main drain is open.
thank you

 

[Realaxpooltech]

View attachment 79800 View attachment 79801 View attachment 79803 A check valve is only needed when over 8' in vertical height from water level to pump location.
It is like a straw in a liquid filled cup, when you put your finger over top hole of straw, and pull straw out of cup, straw holds the liquid inside straw tube, when you lift finger off top of straw liquid in straw drains out of tube, check valve holds water level over vertical height of pipe like finger over straw (kinda sorta)

There are soooooo many things i want to explain to you but cannot, due to the time involved to explain everything i would need to say that i have acquired over 20+ years as a repair tech that has worked on thousands of pools.

I will say this...

1) The so called plumbers that worked on this pool, do not know pool's, if they did, they should know that the route of the horizontal pipe run under deck should have been below water level, and they should not have run pipe above like they did, period, end of story.
( a ball valve is useless, and only necessary if equipment is below water level )

2) A check valve should not be used to fix the problem caused by plumbers and the horizontal pipe run, the solution is to lower the horizontal pipe run and place it below water level, even if it means running pipes half way between deck and ground level, and if you can't walk under deck because pipes are in the way,then u cant walk under deck, at some point the pipes need to be able to have a horizontal run below water, period.

3) There are protective settings on the pump as far as prime detection,prime speed, etc, that will shut down pump if prime is not detected, are you aware of this? because, even if you think the length of time that it takes to prime the pump is to long, it should not be that much of a concern to you, especially since, although a little longer time wise, the pump eventually does pick up prime, as long as the pump eventually primes i don't think 4-6 min. ( or whatever length you mentioned it takes to prime ) is anything to be to concerned about, its when the pump runs and runs without any sign of priming that you should worry, but that is also not a problem because of the pump settings available to shut down pump if there is a problem priming.

So check the priming alarm settings on the pumps features, and other various protective features etc, that may be available, and enable them.

4) I cant put my eyes on anything there, but im willing to bet there are more things going on that also need attention, especially the plumbing as far as glue sealing on pipes and fittings, and other various areas that raise red flags for me.

more to come?.....

- - - Updated - - -

View attachment 79800 View attachment 79801 View attachment 79803 A check valve is only needed when over 8' in vertical height from water level to pump location.
It is like a straw in a liquid filled cup, when you put your finger over top hole of straw, and pull straw out of cup, straw holds the liquid inside straw tube, when you lift finger off top of straw liquid in straw drains out of tube, check valve holds water level over vertical height of pipe like finger over straw (kinda sorta)

There are soooooo many things i want to explain to you but cannot, due to the time involved to explain everything i would need to say that i have acquired over 20+ years as a repair tech that has worked on thousands of pools.

I will say this...

1) The so called plumbers that worked on this pool, do not know pool's, if they did, they should know that the route of the horizontal pipe run under deck should have been below water level, and they should not have run pipe above like they did, period, end of story.
( a ball valve is useless, and only necessary if equipment is below water level )

2) A check valve should not be used to fix the problem caused by plumbers and the horizontal pipe run, the solution is to lower the horizontal pipe run and place it below water level, even if it means running pipes half way between deck and ground level, and if you can't walk under deck because pipes are in the way,then u cant walk under deck, at some point the pipes need to be able to have a horizontal run below water, period.

3) There are protective settings on the pump as far as prime detection,prime speed, etc, that will shut down pump if prime is not detected, are you aware of this? because, even if you think the length of time that it takes to prime the pump is to long, it should not be that much of a concern to you, especially since, although a little longer time wise, the pump eventually does pick up prime, as long as the pump eventually primes i don't think 4-6 min. ( or whatever length you mentioned it takes to prime ) is anything to be to concerned about, its when the pump runs and runs without any sign of priming that you should worry, but that is also not a problem because of the pump settings available to shut down pump if there is a problem priming.

So check the priming alarm settings on the pumps features, and other various protective features etc, that may be available, and enable them.

4) I cant put my eyes on anything there, but im willing to bet there are more things going on that also need attention, especially the plumbing as far as glue sealing on pipes and fittings, and other various areas that raise red flags for me.

more to come?.....

 

[pypeke]

Thank you. I agree on #1 and 2. The plumbers did not know pool plumbing so we will fix it ourselves. I don't care if we can walk under the deck or not.

#3 - I had forgotten about the alarm settings. The pump was running at 2000 rpm today and I was adding liquid chlorine. It suddenly went to priming at 2500 rpm for about 15 seconds then back to 2000 rpm. So it was doing its job. What caused it to do that? I was pouring the chlorine over a return and was watching the water flow. I never saw the water flow stop.

No check valve will be added. Thanks for your knowledge and experience.