Travertine tile installation questions

[Eupelia]

I'm wondering what are acceptable margins of error in travertine paver installation around a pool.

For example, how much height difference from one tile edge to the next is acceptable so I cannot ask him to reset that tile? What kind of paver defects are big enough that I can ask him to scrap that tile as breakage and not use it (we are installing one new section today an the pieces he brought look like the breakage from another job imo)? Is it normal for tons of corners to break? How big should the gap be between the travertine and the raised spa tiled wall? What if area that is supposed to be graded is instead level? How much variation can he ignore in the joint line width?

I want to be reasonable in my punch list requests and be able to counter any claims that something I'm pointing out is within workmanlike standards.

 

[Newdude]

Post pics and the judging will begin.

 

[Toxophilite]

Your list of criteria is extensive enough to cover entire gambit of material and job quality. Agree with above, you need to post pics of specific concern. If that much concern is present and warranted, punch list time sounds too late. Time now to stop the job and you and your PB discuss these issues.

 

[Eupelia]

You know I just wish I'd known that instead of subway I should do herringbone for stability. Anyhow, these tiles are 12" x 16" so they are very big so the details are small. I know that they did not use gravel. They used sand with little pebbles of stone here and there as the paver base. And they only tamped once for the entire 10" rise they created. I can tell that one part is urgent, and that's that part of the end of the deck is falling away and separating (the little concrete underneath at the edges broke apart and is falling away a little, and it's only been about 9 weeks so this is probably just the beginning). it is not allowing me to post most of the pics saying they are too large so here is one and I need to reduce the others somehow.

 

[Toxophilite]

It doesn't appear they have used polymeric sand yet to set. Are the edges cemented yet, to where they just need final bumping in to close gaps. With loose pavers during lay, it's not uncommon for shift until final set. Other than that, so far, not bad looking. Ours are Versailles patterned.

 

[Eupelia]

So the height change ones that I want addressed are the ones that are accumulating noticeable dirt and are easily felt. They are in the middle of the pattern, I don't know how they can fix those? The rest of the pavers are pretty even right now (half the deck is on a concrete patio we had so those are doing great).

Many of the corners are broken off in conspicuous areas. Can I grout those somehow so they aren't noticeable, perhaps with the same grout we used for the coping? Or is that a bad idea? I know they can't fix those corners, it's too minor so I'm looking for something I can do myself.

And last is the gap between the travertine and the edge of the pool. Can i ask them to grout that? Silicon it? Something so that leaves and grass aren't growing through? It's about a centimeter gap all the way around. SO MANY leaves and gunk are getting stuck in there, it's incredible. And the polymeric sand just washed away within a week.

 

[Eupelia]

It doesn't appear they have used polymeric sand yet to set. Are the edges cemented yet, to where they just need final bumping in to close gaps. With loose pavers during lay, it's not uncommon for shift until final set. Other than that, so far, not bad looking. Ours are Versailles patterned.

So the pavers at the edges have been cemented down to large dollops of cement that they put sown on top of the dirt at the edges of the deck, i'm not sure how I just know you can't lift those, maybe they are glued on?

They claimed they put polymeric sand in but it all washed away within a week, so we asked them to come back and put some in and told them I think it was regular sand, otherwise it wouldn't have washed away. The problem is that I see a crack in the cement dollop underneath the paver boundary that is separating. So it seems to be falling away sloooooowly over the last 8 weeks. Those joints used to be tight and now they are like a 1/3 cm.

 

[Toxophilite]

Leveling, cracked, and broken need addressed. Travertine has holes and chips, and that is part the natural beauty of it folks want. But, after all finished the masons will spread polymeric sand all over, sweep in, and water. That fills all voids and lines and makes it look much smoother.

 

[Toxophilite]

So the pavers at the edges have been cemented down to large dollops of cement that they put sown on top of the dirt at the edges of the deck, i'm not sure how I just know you can't lift those, maybe they are glued on?

They claimed they put polymeric sand in but it all washed away within a week, so we asked them to come back and put some in and told them I think it was regular sand, otherwise it wouldn't have washed away. The problem is that I see a crack in the cement dollop underneath the paver boundary that is separating. So it seems to be falling away sloooooowly over the last 8 weeks. Those joints used to be tight and now they are like a 1/3 cm.

How thick are those pavers? The cementing of edges is not really to affix them. It's to create a dam for underlayment sand.

 

[Newdude]

I just had my own patio (paver) done with polymeric sand. They left me some as it will always need spot fixes after it settles in.

I did an experient with it in a solo cup and once it dried out, it might as well be cement. The first watering is tricky as you don't want it washed away so it may be kinda rubber-y when they leave. But either a 2nd hosing a few days later, or rain, will finish the job.

 

[Toxophilite]

I just had my own patio (paver) done with polymeric sand. They left me some as it will always need spot fixes after it settles in.

I did an experient with it in a solo cup and once it dried out, it might as well be cement. The first watering is tricky as you don't want it washed away so it may be kinda rubber-y when they leave. But either a 2nd hosing a few days later, or rain, will finish the job.

It definitely is some interesting stuff!! I suspect, by looking at some of the pics where outer edge lineup and mating edges of pavers are showing shifting, that the pavers are probably 1/2" and more suitable for slab install. Sand mount does better with very heavy, much thicker, pavers.

 

[JamesW]

For example, how much height difference from one tile edge to the next is acceptable so I cannot ask him to reset that tile? What kind of paver defects are big enough that I can ask him to scrap that tile as breakage and not use it (we are installing one new section today an the pieces he brought look like the breakage from another job imo)? Is it normal for tons of corners to break? How big should the gap be between the travertine and the raised spa tiled wall? What if area that is supposed to be graded is instead level? How much variation can he ignore in the joint line width?

These are the type of questions that you need to ask before signing a contract.

Otherwise, it becomes a matter of opinion and assumption.

You can’t just assume that your standards will be met unless you discuss them with the contractor beforehand.

In the absence of clearly stated and agreed standards it becomes, to some degree, a “Looks Right” standard.

In other words, does it “look right” to an average person with no obvious defects.

However, this is very subjective unless it is a glaring defect.

In any case, it’s still not too late to have this discussion with the contractor.

Ask them these questions and get their answers.

Also, ask them if there is some sort of published industry reference that you can read with these standards spelled out.

 

[JamesW]

It is interesting to note that the clay brick industry allows every paving brick to contain chips as large as 5 /16" along the edge and 1 /2" at the corners! Although the concrete paver industry under ASTM specification C-936 simply states that minor cracks and chips shall not be deemed grounds for rejection, we have often used the size of a dime to measure acceptable character marks.

https://www.idealconcreteblock.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Contractor-Paver-How-to-06.pdf

 

[JamesW]

Joint Size: While most styles of pavers have spacer tabs molded into their sides, the optimal size of the joints between pavers should be 1/8" to 1/4", though with circles and fans, joint spacing may vary.

Spacing too tightly can lead to chipping and difficulty in maintaining pattern lines.

Pavers spaced too far apart will result in the loss of interlock between units.

https://www.idealconcreteblock.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Contractor-Paver-How-to-06.pdf

https://icpi.org/s/ICPI_ConstrToleranceGuide_RevFeb2020_Web_0.pdf

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icpi.org

https://icpi.org/s/ICPI_PICPConstructionTolerancesGuideRev2021-09.pdf

 

[Eupelia]

Joint Size: While most styles of pavers have spacer tabs molded into their sides, the optimal size of the joints between pavers should be 1/8" to 1/4", though with circles and fans, joint spacing may vary.

Spacing too tightly can lead to chipping and difficulty in maintaining pattern lines.

Pavers spaced too far apart will result in the loss of interlock between units.

View attachment 456651

https://www.idealconcreteblock.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Contractor-Paver-How-to-06.pdf

View attachment 456652

https://icpi.org/s/ICPI_ConstrToleranceGuide_RevFeb2020_Web_0.pdf

View attachment 456653

Home

ABOUT US CMHA is the authority for segmental concrete products and systems, which are the best value and preferred choice...

icpi.org

View attachment 456654

https://icpi.org/s/ICPI_PICPConstructionTolerancesGuideRev2021-09.pdf

Wow 1/8" is a lot.

 

[JamesW]

Wow 1/8" is a lot.

How much difference are you getting?