Thoughts on waterfall wall, spa height, spillover placement, pumps

[cjeducator]

Hi all,

First off, I appreciate this community as I’ve learned a lot, and people are willing to kindly give of their time, wisdom, experience, ideas, and constructive opinions.



We’re planning to build, and please see the image for an idea. BUT – we plan to raise the hot tub 18 inches (standard height, I believe) and the “waterfall wall” we plan to extend the entire length of the pool but have “steps” on either side at 6 inches, 12 inches, 18 inches, and then the wall will be 24 inches high. The wall will be 16 inches wide. So, going for that “tiered” look. The waterfall wall will have three waterfalls, two two-feet-wide and one four-feet-wide in the middle. Kind of evenly spaced across the length of the waterfall wall.

Approximate Gallons is 16,000. Depth is 3’ to 5.5’. 6” gunnite shell. 3 return fittings.

Spa is 28 linear feet for its interior perimeter – so that means 8’ by 6’ on the inside. Six jets (we are a family of four, but do you suggest to put in more for when you have guests over?).

Questions:

• You see the spillover from the hot tub. It faces away from the house. It feels randomly placed. Maybe the spillover should be on the corner but a) is that a good look? and b) does that reduce any functionality for people wanting to sit in the hot tub. I could also move the spa “into” the pool more, and then we could have a spillover on two sides into the pool, with each spillover centered in the middle. But then we lose a few feet of width for the swimming pool space. As yet another idea, but about no spillover and four exact same hot tub walls?
  
  
• I wanted the waterfall wall to be 24” tall just to look bigger/better than only 12” or 18”. The hot tub will be only 18” so is it weird that the wall is 24” and the spa is 18”? It feels like raising the spa to 24” makes it super difficult for normal people to step into.
  
  
• If the spa is raised to 18”, well then it will have four angled corners seeing as how it’s a rectangle. I’m nervous about those being dangerous for the heads of kids or knees of adults.
  
  
• The façade of the waterfall wall and the exterior of the spa will be ledger stone, so that they match. I don’t know how to make a decision about the waterline tile/ribbon that people put around their pool. Ledger stone won’t work because that will deteriorate; I think it has to be ceramic or glass. But…what to do? Should I care about making it match the ledger stone somehow? I feel like it should.
  
  
• Tile option for the deck is 12x24 or 16x24 Diana Royale leathered marble. We are leaning towards the latter since we want the waterfall wall’s width to be more than 12 inches (and therefore went with 16” and so the top of the waterfall wall will be the same as the decking).
  
  
• I’m quoted a Jandy 2.7HP variable 8 speed pump for the pool and spa, and a Jandy 1.65HP Flo-Pro water feature pump for, of course, the waterfall wall. Thoughts on these?
  
  
• The pool is a salt system, Jandy, Aqua-pure. Jandy CS 200 Cartridge Filter
  
  
• Where should the vacuum line go – what is the best placement for this?
  
  
• I welcome any other thoughts/tweaks/ideas/additions/enhancements. If you see something that is going to be regrettable, or lead to maintenance I should try to avoid, I want to hear! If you see that something is “cutting corners” please let me know as I don’t want to try and skimp here and there for such a big project. Please don’t hesitate to weigh in; I value your input!

 

[Cena_sea]

Our spa is flush but our friend just did 12 inch spa and 18 inch wall. I asked why not both 18 and she said her builder said two different levels were more interesting to the eye (or something like that). I agreed so I would leave spa at 18 max. Also I have a hard time stepping up 24 inches. 18 is doable.

Edit: Actually I think her builder said something about the sightline for the two different heights. I was the one who said oh yes, it's more interesting for the eye.

 

[bongardjm]

I will say that we also have a raised spa on the house side of the pool and the one regret I have is that I cannot see on the other side of it. So with any kids / small kids you never know what is happening behind that wall if sitting on deck or in the house looking out. Or if people are in the pool I struggle with "assuming" they are OK on the other side as there is that blindspot area and have to move to look. It would be better to have sightlines at all times. A little thing I never even thought about.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Spa Spillway: have a spillway on both walls that face the pool. Open face spillways are dangerous to walk on when wet.

Waterfall: Waterfall at 24” and Spa at 18” is going to look just fine and will make the waterfall stand out as a focal point as you first see the pool.

Spa at 18”: this is not going to be dangerous and is the correct height for people to sit on as a seat while visiting with people in the spa.

Waterline Tile: Glass will look the best but that’s a lot of perimeter. Ceramic will be more cost effective, the decision is up to your budget. Yes it should tie in somewhat to the rest of the look of the pool or it’s going to stand out in a bad way.

Suction side cleaner: 2/3 distance from either end of the pool.

Other comments: steps in shallow end at a 45 ( less space used and pool sweep has a less chance of getting stuck especially if the steps are fish bowled ).

Spa jets: More is better, for you and your wife I would have two sets of triples and have these on a lower elevation seat than the other jets (24” or 21” of water)

When having a pool built theirs many more options to consider like transition from shallow to deep end, light location, return line location, skimmer location, auto fill location and more. You have a say so in all of this so educate yourself the best you can, hope this helps, Ray.

Deep end seat: have you thought about a way to exit the pool in the deep end for kids with a seat?

 

[TampaKathy]

3 feet is very shallow. I like the look of ceramic tile better than glass but I think I am in the minority.

 

[ajw22]

Six jets (we are a family of four, but do you suggest to put in more for when you have guests over?).

Each jets needs 12-15 GPM of flow for good massaging pressure. 6 jets means you need 72-90 GPM of flow. Adding more jest will require more water flow.

Will your main filter/pump be able to provide sufficient flow to the spa jets when pushing water through the filter and heater? Or should you have a dedicated spa jet pump that is not restricted.

You want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec on the suction and below 8 ft/sec on the pressure side of the pump.

Pipe Size	6 ft/sec	8 ft/sec
1.5"	38 GPM	51 GPM
2"	63 GPM	84 GPM
2.5	90 GPM	119 GPM
3.0"	138 GPM	184 GPM

That means the pool equipment pad or at least the dedicated spa pump needs at least 2.5" suction with 2" return or 3" piping.

Questions:

• You see the spillover from the hot tub. It faces away from the house. It feels randomly placed. Maybe the spillover should be on the corner but a) is that a good look? and b) does that reduce any functionality for people wanting to sit in the hot tub. I could also move the spa “into” the pool more, and then we could have a spillover on two sides into the pool, with each spillover centered in the middle. But then we lose a few feet of width for the swimming pool space. As yet another idea, but about no spillover and four exact same hot tub walls?

I have my spillover on the corner and it works fine.

The more spillover area you have the greater flow you will need to have a good spillover.

• The façade of the waterfall wall and the exterior of the spa will be ledger stone, so that they match. I don’t know how to make a decision about the waterline tile/ribbon that people put around their pool. Ledger stone won’t work because that will deteriorate; I think it has to be ceramic or glass. But…what to do? Should I care about making it match the ledger stone somehow? I feel like it should.

Ledger stone is not good for a waterfall or spa wall. The uneven surfaces will get calcium scale and be difficult to clean.

• Tile option for the deck is 12x24 or 16x24 Diana Royale leathered marble. We are leaning towards the latter since we want the waterfall wall’s width to be more than 12 inches (and therefore went with 16” and so the top of the waterfall wall will be the same as the decking).

Marble is not a good surface to use for a pool deck or on pools. It is a soft stone that stains easily. You will need to seal it and constantly renew the sealer.

Here is a thread of someone who started with marble tile and had to rip it off before the pool was finished...

Pool Contract - Pool Builder's Repetitive Mistakes

We live in the Houston and are in the process of a pool renovation/lazy river. They dug at the end of October 2021 and this project is still going on. I'm not a pessimistic person, but this has been nothing but a huge nightmare. Our "pool builder" has made one mistake after another and I...

www.troublefreepool.com

• I’m quoted a Jandy 2.7HP variable 8 speed pump for the pool and spa, and a Jandy 1.65HP Flo-Pro water feature pump for, of course, the waterfall wall. Thoughts on these?

They are ok.

What automation system are you getting?

Consider a dedicated spa jet pump.

• The pool is a salt system, Jandy, Aqua-pure. Jandy CS 200 Cartridge Filter

Get a larger cartridge filter. 400-500 sq ft.

• Where should the vacuum line go – what is the best placement for this?

Vacuum line has no place in a pool built in the 21st century.

Get a robot pool cleaner.

• I welcome any other thoughts/tweaks/ideas/additions/enhancements. If you see something that is going to be regrettable, or lead to maintenance I should try to avoid, I want to hear!

Don't use ledger stone or marble on the pool. Smooth ceramic tile is best for spa and waterfall walls.

 

[ajw22]

Depth is 3’ to 5.5’.

Confirm with builder that all depths are water depths to middle of skimmer mouth. Not to top of bond beam.

3' is too shallow for swimming. Consider 3.5' starting depth.

 

[cjeducator]

Our spa is flush but our friend just did 12 inch spa and 18 inch wall. I asked why not both 18 and she said her builder said two different levels were more interesting to the eye (or something like that). I agreed so I would leave spa at 18 max. Also I have a hard time stepping up 24 inches. 18 is doable.

Really helpful - thank you Cena.

 

[cjeducator]

Spa Spillway: have a spillway on both walls that face the pool. Open face spillways are dangerous to walk on when wet.

Waterfall: Waterfall at 24” and Spa at 18” is going to look just fine and will make the waterfall stand out as a focal point as you first see the pool.

Spa at 18”: this is not going to be dangerous and is the correct height for people to sit on as a seat while visiting with people in the spa.

Waterline Tile: Glass will look the best but that’s a lot of perimeter. Ceramic will be more cost effective, the decision is up to your budget. Yes it should tie in somewhat to the rest of the look of the pool or it’s going to stand out in a bad way.

Suction side cleaner: 2/3 distance from either end of the pool.

Other comments: steps in shallow end at a 45 ( less space used and pool sweep has a less chance of getting stuck especially if the steps are fish bowled ).

Spa jets: More is better, for you and your wife I would have two sets of triples and have these on a lower elevation seat than the other jets (24” or 21” of water)

When having a pool built theirs many more options to consider like transition from shallow to deep end, light location, return line location, skimmer location, auto fill location and more. You have a say so in all of this so educate yourself the best you can, hope this helps, Ray.

Deep end seat: have you thought about a way to exit the pool in the deep end for kids with a seat?

Thank you, Ray.

I like the idea of more jets placed at different heights. I will research this.

I like the idea of steps at 45 degrees instead of how we have them in the above image - in order to prevent the pool sweep from getting stuck. I Googled "fishbowled steps" but still don't know what that means.

I feel good about the transition from shallow to deep end, and the light location. I need to research the best spots for return line location, skimmer location, auto-fill location, suction-side cleaner, and whatever else. Right now, I do not know where to optimally locate those. I'll get on it.

We are going to have a bench out in the deep end, as well as waterline handholds along the pool wall that is the waterfall wall - is that what you mean?

Very much appreciate your detailed input!

 

[cjeducator]

3 feet is very shallow. I like the look of ceramic tile better than glass but I think I am in the minority.

After swimming around in a hotel pool today that had both 3 and 3.5ft as their shallow end, I think I will go with 3.5ft. Thank you. And I will research glass v. ceramic. Thank you for your thoughts!!

 

[cjeducator]

Each jets needs 12-15 GPM of flow for good massaging pressure. 6 jets means you need 72-90 GPM of flow. Adding more jest will require more water flow.

Will your main filter/pump be able to provide sufficient flow to the spa jets when pushing water through the filter and heater? Or should you have a dedicated spa jet pump that is not restricted.

You want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec on the suction and below 8 ft/sec on the pressure side of the pump.

Pipe Size	6 ft/sec	8 ft/sec
1.5"	38 GPM	51 GPM
2"	63 GPM	84 GPM
2.5	90 GPM	119 GPM
3.0"	138 GPM	184 GPM

That means the pool equipment pad or at least the dedicated spa pump needs at least 2.5" suction with 2" return or 3" piping.



I have my spillover on the corner and it works fine.

The more spillover area you have the greater flow you will need to have a good spillover.


View attachment 394149


Ledger stone is not good for a waterfall or spa wall. The uneven surfaces will get calcium scale and be difficult to clean.


Marble is not a good surface to use for a pool deck or on pools. It is a soft stone that stains easily. You will need to seal it and constantly renew the sealer.

Here is a thread of someone who started with marble tile and had to rip it off before the pool was finished...

Pool Contract - Pool Builder's Repetitive Mistakes

We live in the Houston and are in the process of a pool renovation/lazy river. They dug at the end of October 2021 and this project is still going on. I'm not a pessimistic person, but this has been nothing but a huge nightmare. Our "pool builder" has made one mistake after another and I...

www.troublefreepool.com

They are ok.

What automation system are you getting?

Consider a dedicated spa jet pump.


Get a larger cartridge filter. 400-500 sq ft.


Vacuum line has no place in a pool built in the 21st century.

Get a robot pool cleaner.


Don't use ledger stone or marble on the pool. Smooth ceramic tile is best for spa and waterfall walls.

Thank you so much for weighing in. Let me briefly respond to some of the queries.

I always thought that sanded marble was the least slippery. This is shocking to me. My neighbors have travertine and when it's wet, it is slick. I do realize both are hewn from the same rock. What are you recommending?

I will absolutely consider a third pump for the spa, but my PB said I'd only need one for the pool + spa, and then one for the waterfall wall. I will walk through your figures with them to make sure I don't have regrets later. I am happy to have a third pump if need be. I don't know why they suggested against it.

Your pool and spa look outstanding!

I hear what you are saying about the ledger stone. I really do love the look of it, but I obviously don't want to deal with calcium scale. I did previously bring this up to my builder and he said it shouldn't be an issue but to be on the safe side, maybe we should just go with ceramic or glass for the facade.

You said the Jandy pumps are okay. Just okay? I see that you use Pentair and I'm sure that was an intentional choice.

I can get a larger cartridge filter. 400-500.

You asked about automation, I have been quoted the Jandy RSPs4 with 2 actuators and four relays and iAqualink.

Again, thank you so much, ajw22.

 

[cjeducator]

I will say that we also have a raised spa on the house side of the pool and the one regret I have is that I cannot see on the other side of it. So with any kids / small kids you never know what is happening behind that wall if sitting on deck or in the house looking out. Or if people are in the pool I struggle with "assuming" they are OK on the other side as there is that blindspot area and have to move to look. It would be better to have sightlines at all times. A little thing I never even thought about.

My wife did point out the issue of lack of visibility to see what's going on beyond the spa if the spa is in front of the pool. You're right, we wouldn't know what are kids are doing behind it and if they are okay. With this in mind, now we are leaning back to a recessed spa but if it's currently 8' by 6' and we will have to put in steps (for those with mobility challenges), we may have to make it 8' by 8' because the steps will take up some room. But that size of a spa seems huge. I welcome your thoughts. Thank you, Jim!

 

[cjeducator]

Confirm with builder that all depths are water depths to middle of skimmer mouth. Not to top of bond beam.

3' is too shallow for swimming. Consider 3.5' starting depth.

Based on the multiple people here, and my own experiments today in a pool, I now agree. Thank you.

 

[stevo777]

Ledger stone is not good for a waterfall or spa wall. The uneven surfaces will get calcium scale and be difficult to clean.

Just my experience - we used ledger stone for a laminar water feature at a previous home. Never had a scale issue; the water fell cleanly onto river rock in a bowl below. Your mileage may vary. Maybe have the builder show you some examples of installations which have been in place for a while.

 

[ajw22]

Just my experience - we used ledger stone for a laminar water feature at a previous home. Never had a scale issue; the water fell cleanly onto river rock in a bowl below. Your mileage may vary. Maybe have the builder show you some examples of installations which have been in place for a while.

It very much depends on your local water chemistry and pool environment. It may work out fine but if you make the wrong choice and it is a problem you have to live with it. Ceramic tile is less likely to develop those problems.

 

[ajw22]

I always thought that sanded marble was the least slippery. This is shocking to me. My neighbors have travertine and when it's wet, it is slick. I do realize both are hewn from the same rock. What are you recommending?

You have many deck alternatives and there are different grades of travertine. Both of thsoe blogs recommend travertine over marble for pool decks...

Marble vs Travertine Difference. Which Stone Is Better?

Are you stuck between choosing marble or travertine for your countertop, pool deck, or floor? Perhaps you thought marble and travertine were the same stone? After all, plenty of people do.

www.giftedhouse.com

Travertine vs Marble Comparison Guide – What is the Difference?

Is Travertine Marble? Before we get into the discussion, the answer is No! Many people think that travertine is marble or a type of marble but that is not the case. Travertine is a different stone from marble and it has its own unique properties and metrics.

sefastone.com

I will absolutely consider a third pump for the spa, but my PB said I'd only need one for the pool + spa, and then one for the waterfall wall. I will walk through your figures with them to make sure I don't have regrets later. I am happy to have a third pump if need be. I don't know why they suggested against it.

Pool builders don't need to live with what they say. You do. What he may feel is adequate spa jet pressure you may feel is inadequate. Does your pool builder even have a pool and spa?

We see people who show up here asking how can they get more pressure from their spa jets when their builder gave them a one pump system. By then it is too late. With two pumps you have much more flexibility to adjust things whatever way you want to enjoy your pool and spa.

Your pool and spa look outstanding!

Thank you.

I hear what you are saying about the ledger stone. I really do love the look of it, but I obviously don't want to deal with calcium scale. I did previously bring this up to my builder and he said it shouldn't be an issue but to be on the safe side, maybe we should just go with ceramic or glass for the facade.

Ceramic tile will be easier to maintain. Some people would rather prioritize form over function. I prefer to go for what works best, not what looks best.

You said the Jandy pumps are okay. Just okay? I see that you use Pentair and I'm sure that was an intentional choice.

My personal ranking of pool equipment is:

1. Pentair
2. Hayward
3. Jandy

Builders prefer Jandy because Jandy gives them the best deals. Jandy is able to do that since they have equipment with more proprietary parts and they will make more from the pool owners on future parts. To update the firmware in your iAqualink you will need to buy a new board for around $600. Pentair and Hayward send free over the air software updates to their latest automation systems.

I can get a larger cartridge filter. 400-500.

Do it. Florida builder sell too small cartridge filters for some reason.

You asked about automation, I have been quoted the Jandy RSPs4 with 2 actuators and four relays and iAqualink.

Then you need the Jandy VS pumps.

Again, thank you so much, ajw22.

Welcome.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Fish-bowled steps: where the step meet the pool wall it’s rounded like fish-bowl so the pool sweep has less chance of getting stuck in the corners this also helps with keeping circulation moving and less dead spots. Most Shotcrete crews know what is expected when you advise them of this request.
Return line: your goal is to have no dead spots for water movement.
Skimmer:determined by most prevalent wind direction and hopefully on the house side of the pool so you don’t see the mouth from the house.
Auto fill: if you use pour-a-lids on your deck , location is not as important due to the lids blending in so well.
Pool sweep: 2/3 of distance from either end of pool for suction side cleaners.
Yes the deep end seat is what I was referring to. 2” coping that hangs out over the pool water provides a grip for swimmers to hold on to around the pool.

 

[kimkats]

Hi and thanks for letting up help you build your pool!

Everyone else has covered what I would have:
-water depth
-spa height
-steps

I would love to see where the beauty will be going so we can see it from the start!

Kim

 

[cjeducator]

Hi and thanks for letting up help you build your pool!

Everyone else has covered what I would have:
-water depth
-spa height
-steps

I would love to see where the beauty will be going so we can see it from the start!

Kim

Sure, Kim! I will take and post pics of my backyard - which is small. This pool is going to take up the entire backyard because many houses down here in South Florida are built so close together. Thanks for caring!

 

[cjeducator]

Hi everyone,

Again, thank you to those who weighed in last time to give me some input. I am really, really close to finalizing everything and just wanted some final thoughts/advice.

1) It was suggested by a TFP regular that we should have a pump for the waterfall wall, a pump for the pool, and a pump for the spa. My pool guy really believes we only need a single 2.7hp pump for the pool and spa (and yes, a separate pump for the waterfall wall). The logic is that the pump will only be servicing either the spa or the pool at the same time. When we are in the spa, it will be servicing the spa (if there are people also in the pool, it doesn't need to really service the pool, servicing the pool can wait). When we finish with the spa and switch it to pool mode, it can just service the pool again.

The only thing I can think of is, but what if you need the pool to stay warm...people are in the hot tub and the pool folks will start to slowly get colder since the pump is servicing the hot tub and not the pool at the moment. But how fast will a warm pool lose temperature as other people spend time in the hot tub - and do I need a third pump simply for that reason?

What am I not thinking through here?

2) Here's a diagram of the therapy jet layout of an 8' by 8' recessed spa we want. The triangle in the bottom left is the step we are adding to help people get into the hot tub without having to step down 18 inches to the bench. h means high-height jet at around 12 inches from the bench. m means medium-height jet at around 9 inches from the bench, and l means low-height jet, at 6 inches from the bench. What do you think?

Also, since it's recessed and there is no formal spillover, we are going to have seating all the way around.

3) TPF regulars suggested a larger cartridge, 400-500sq feet. My guy says they can do the Jandy CV 460 but says it has four or five cartridges that you are cleaning out, not one. So I'm basically increasing my workload by getting a larger cartridge. One of us is confused. Actually, I am definitely confused and he may be too. Please help!

4) I have heard the iAqualink RSP8 doesn't require a new motherboard for firmware updates (a TFP regular said I would need a new board...and for that reason go with Pentair or Hayward. If I'm right, I shouldn't be deterred from getting the Jandy system here...thoughts? I can always call Jandy to confirm.

5) I've been told three returns will be sufficient, I don't need four, even though I've read if I have a rectangular pool it may be best to have a return on all four sides. Should I insist on four?

6) According to the pool guy, I will have one skimmer, but if I want another, it's another $500 (which of course I don't mind if we want to insist)...but here's the thing - we will have a screened cage over the pool for sure. So, that will drastically cut down on debris.

I really think that is it for now! Super excited to be approaching closure with this thing. Thank you, thank you, thank you to all.