The Dig Is Too Deep!

[Malibu07]

What do you do in a case like this?

The ground is nothing but clay and it rained yesterday. So today, it's sunny outside but it's a muddy mess around the pool walls. Tomorrow, the builders want to put in a base of gravel then pour concrete on top of that. They said it would lift the walls up like it should be. For extra support, they are putting a pipe filled with concrete at every K brace like a pier.

I like to hear some opinions on this. I am frustrated and I'm beginning to think I hired the 3 Stoogies to install my pool!

 

[woodyp]

My question would be who is paying for the screwup. Concrete ain't cheap these days. And why the concrete filled "pipe" Metal to metal contact underground ain't a good thing. Just make it a poured concrete footing. Are we talking about partially burying an above ground here or an inground pool? How deep is too deep?

 

[themilkman]

With a liner pool I would be worried about that interface of the bottom of the wall to the concrete. Mine slopes away from the wall in the deep end and the vermiculite actually came up and covered that interface. How would they slope the concrete from the bottom of the wall or is your pool going to be one depth? My builder dug hole, installed walls and braces then poured a concrete ring around the base of the pool but was on solid undisturbed earth.

I don't see a good way of fixing that unfortunately....I would be concerned and demand extended warranty of the pool if you allow them to continue.

 

[Guest]

Many pools are ever excavated (many intentionally) and gravel brought in to build it back up. In cases of pools being "shallowed up" after someone buys a home with an existing pool that is too deep and they want it made shallower, gravel is used to fill the void (it is self leveling) and concrete is pumped on top.

I'm not expert on liner pools, but I don't see why it would hurt anything. In fact, in the case of clay soil, it may even be a good thing!

 

[tim_pool_fan]

I just built my IG pool and was told by the PB that if the ground is determined to be too soft, it is common to over-excavate and build it back up with a base layer of gravel. As for the concrete filed pipes.....not a clue.

 

[Malibu07]

This picture was taken yesterday before it rained;

You can see where he has the walls jacked up on cinder blocks to lift it up some.
The pool is a 14 x 28 inground with 42" Polymer walls, 3-4 foot shallow and a 6 foot deep end. As far as who will pay for the gravel.....they said since it was their fault for letting the excavator dig too deep, they will eat the cost of the gravel! I will pay for 5 yards of concrete and not a yard more! It should only be about 3-4 yards.
I am concerned with the rain now that seems to plague us every evening. I feel like I'm living in FL!

The pipe thing (he calls it a Pier) is something that he came up with while building pools on unlevel ground. My yard is flat, but it is full of clay.

 

[britinusa]

Im not an expert, but are the braces upside down?

 

[woodyp]

Im not an expert, but are the braces upside down?

.............................(I thought the same thing).........................

They missed that by 8 inches and you're willing to pay for the concrete? I'd be pitchin' a hissy fit.

 

[Rob621]

The braces are not upside down. What you are seeing are the deck support braces.

 

[learthur]

I don't see a problem. In clay soils, gravel backfill should be standard anyway to protect the pool from the expansion and contraction that clay does when it gets wet and dries out. Gravel is cheap....especially compared to concrete. I say bring more gravel.

 

[waste]

IF I'm understanding what they want to do correctly, it's cool

I think the concrete you are talking about them pouring is the 'collar' that locks the bottom of the panels in on the outside of the pool. Gravel is great for this, it keeps the concrete outside of the pool, where it's supposed to be. They'll be bringing more in to build up the floor before they do the bottom (a lot ).

Also, the 'footers' he's planning are well and good, as long as the pipes he uses don't protrude too far into the pool (your pool base/ floor material should come 2" up onto the panels, so, as long as the pipes don't stick into the pool more than ~ 1/2" - all is good). IMO - he should just use the cinderblock he's got there, turned sideways so that it doesn't possibly interfere with the pool floor, and replace the wood with cinderblocks or cinderbricks.

Sounds like they at least know enough to get the pool level before they pour the collar

While I love the 3 stooges emoticon, it sounds like your builder might not live up to it and you'll end up with a well built pool

 

[Malibu07]

IF I'm understanding what they want to do correctly, it's cool

I think the concrete you are talking about them pouring is the 'collar' that locks the bottom of the panels in on the outside of the pool. Gravel is great for this, it keeps the concrete outside of the pool, where it's supposed to be. They'll be bringing more in to build up the floor before they do the bottom (a lot ).

Also, the 'footers' he's planning are well and good, as long as the pipes he uses don't protrude too far into the pool (your pool base/ floor material should come 2" up onto the panels, so, as long as the pipes don't stick into the pool more than ~ 1/2" - all is good). IMO - he should just use the cinderblock he's got there, turned sideways so that it doesn't possibly interfere with the pool floor, and replace the wood with cinderblocks or cinderbricks.

Sounds like they at least know enough to get the pool level before they pour the collar

While I love the 3 stooges emoticon, it sounds like your builder might not live up to it and you'll end up with a well built pool

Yep, the gravel goes in around the Collier or behind the walls as well as the whole pool floor. Then they are going to pour concrete behind the walls. They also said instead of using Vermiculite for the floor, they want to use sand/concrete.
The concrete pipes, are set vertically next to each brace. Sorry for the confusion.....it confuses me too.
One of the installers knew me from high school and lived in my old neighborhood. He has been building pools for over 25 years. He has been very apologetic for the whole mishap and really wants to see this be a success......and he's not the only one!


I appreciate your comments. It does make me feel better and a little more optimistic.

 

[lbrownin]

I haven't heard of using concrete pipes, but I have heard of using sonotubes (cylindrical forms) filled with concrete. The bottom would rest on the concrete bond beam around the base of the walls. The top would help support the deck and keep it from settling. Seems to me the concrete pipes would serve the same function. Good luck - hope all goes well!

 

[waste]

I prefer vermiculite over sand and cement (we can talk about that), but either is fine.

However, if they do sand and cement, I strongly! recommend making them install a 'well point' in the deep end, under the gravel for you! Reason being, you know you've got clay soil and already have the gravel in place With a preinstalled well point, you can prevent floor floating issues and liner wrinkles via judicious use of a pump when you get torrential rains. They may try and tell you that a hydrostatic valve in the main drain will accomplish the same thing, but it won't!

Run this idea by them and let me know what they say.

 

[Malibu07]

I prefer vermiculite over sand and cement (we can talk about that), but either is fine.

However, if they do sand and cement, I strongly! recommend making them install a 'well point' in the deep end, under the gravel for you! Reason being, you know you've got clay soil and already have the gravel in place With a preinstalled well point, you can prevent floor floating issues and liner wrinkles via judicious use of a pump when you get torrential rains. They may try and tell you that a hydrostatic valve in the main drain will accomplish the same thing, but it won't!

Run this idea by them and let me know what they say.

They weren't going to point a well point in at first but now that the gravel is coming, they said they want to put in a well point.
Before the rain turned the bottom into mud, they were initially going to use Vermiculite, but they feel Vermiculite could cause bumps or soft spots. With gravel under that, it may be better to use the sand/concrete mix.....I don't know.

I will keep you guys posted.

 

[Heckpools]

I think these guys know what they are doing and everything should be ok.
The fact they WANT to install a well point, tells me they are thinking ahead, not just trying to finish, get paid, and get out.

Somewhere in this "under constrution" forum i posted pics labeled "my first pool build" or something like that. I helped a friend who is a local PB and we also installed 4inch pvc pipe sticking up out of the concrete footing. It was used to help support the concrete deck that will be poured around the pool once the pool is backfilled. great idea if you ask me. If the dirt under the concrete were to ever settle and drop, then the pvc pipes will still be there to support the concrete deck, which should prevent the concrete from sinking or cracking.

Can you take some more pics, and keep us updated?

Thanks!

 

[Rob621]

What should be done with the pipes filled with concrete (and if I am understanding it this is what your PB is proposing to do), is that they should be installing them under your deck. The PVC will get set in the concrete collar they pour as a footer around the walls. The pipes are then filled with concrete. The pool is backfilled and when the deck is poured, it encompasses the concrete filled pipes acting as a pier. This coupled with the deck support braces actually allows your deck to "float" so you don't have to worry about settlement (hence cracking). And since it is one structure tied to the footer or collar, frost heave won't be a problem (if you're in a northern climate subject to frost heave).

If your PB is doing this, rest assured you have a very good pool builder.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rob621]

One other note regarding the pool bottom. I have shale soil, hence small broken rocky soil. My PB poured a thin concrete bottom layer to keep the shale at bay, avoiding any possible potrusions into the bottom and then applied a vermiculite coating over the concrete. Might want to see if your PB will do both the concrete and vermiculite as mine did.

 

[Malibu07]

I think these guys know what they are doing and everything should be ok.
The fact they WANT to install a well point, tells me they are thinking ahead, not just trying to finish, get paid, and get out.

Somewhere in this "under constrution" forum i posted pics labeled "my first pool build" or something like that. I helped a friend who is a local PB and we also installed 4inch pvc pipe sticking up out of the concrete footing. It was used to help support the concrete deck that will be poured around the pool once the pool is backfilled. great idea if you ask me. If the dirt under the concrete were to ever settle and drop, then the pvc pipes will still be there to support the concrete deck, which should prevent the concrete from sinking or cracking.

Can you take some more pics, and keep us updated?

Thanks!

Thanks for your comment, it does make me feel more confident in their workmanship.

As soon as something is happening, I will take more pictures. They just dumped a load of gravel and now they are on a lunch break.

 

[Malibu07]

This is the thread where I'm posting all the construction pictures;

the-digging-begins-t25019.html