Questions on Nitro Sticky

[tonydatillo]

Hello. New spa owner who has been having quite a few problems with water chemistry. Mostly due to my own lack of knowledge from the beginning, but I've done a lot of reading and I think I know what direction I need to be headed in. I have been using test strips so these figures are not precise. I do have a Taylor K-2006 drop test kit on the way that I will use after draining and refilling the spa.

Water is running through a softener. Tested both a bathroom faucet and the outside spigot that is being used to fill the spa with test strips. Outside spigot has been tested with and without a pre-filter.

Spa: Bueno Spa Jersey Hot Tub
Water Capacity: Manual states minimum water is 1136 liter or approx. 300 gallons (should I use 300 in the PoolMath Calculator or up it to 325?)
CH: 0-? (very low)
CYA: 0
TA: 180-240
pH: 8.4-8.8

After asking some questions at a spa store, I was told to use dry acid (Clorox pH down) to bring down the pH and the TA would follow. Nothing was asked or mentioned about calcium hardness. This may have eventually worked, but I was following the directions on the dry acid container and when I compare that to the PoolMath Calculator, I don't believe I was adding nearly enough dry acid. I was adding 1.5-3 tsp at a time and the pH wasn't budging. The PoolMath Calculator suggests with a pH of 8.8 and TA at 240, I would need to add 2.7 oz by volume or 16.2 tsp of dry acid to bring the pH down to 7.0 from 8.8. (Am I thinking about all of this correctly?) Moving forward I will measure everything by weight for accuracy.

I did eventually get my pH down to 7.2 and TA down to 40-50 ppm by using a product called Acid Magic (tested with strips and calibrated digital pH tester). The container stated to use it exactly as you would use 31.45% - 20 Baume muriatic acid, but I had to use way more of this product than what the PoolMath Calculator suggested for regular muriatic acid of the same strength. (Possibly due to starting out with TA at 180 - 240 ppm?) After a few days my water became very cloudy and while I believe it to be due to the chlorine levels or lack thereof, I think the best thing to do is start over with a fresh fill. There are other things that I have attempted, but I won't get into it, because it only adds chaos and confusion to a situation that already has too much of both.

I'm going to drain my spa once more and start over using what I have learned from Nitro, but I do have a few questions. I'll run through each step of the process in the order that I plan to tackle the issues and ask my questions. I'll highlight my questions in red, so they are easier to spot. I've read the post 20+ times over the past week in an effort to completely understand the process and formulate the questions that I still have.

1) Fill spa with soft water and heat to 95F (Is 95F sufficient? Nitro mentions near 100F, how does the water temp affect this process?)

2) Test CH and add Calcium Chloride to bring up to 130-150 ppm (If I'm going from 0-50 to 150 ppm, how long should I wait before I retest? Can all of the Calcium Chloride be added in one shot?)

3) Test pH and TA

4) Input current levels into PoolMath Calculator, set destired pH to 7 and desired TA to 50 ppm

5) Turn on jets, air, blowers, waterfalls ... Add enough acid to bring pH to 7. Aerate until pH is 7.8 again (30 minutes).

6) Add more acid and repeat until TA is at 50 ppm (Each time that this is repeated, should I be adding enough acid to bring the pH down to 7 based on the current pH reading, up until the point at which the TA is at 50 ppm?) (This is the part that I am not clear on. The summary says it takes 8oz of dry acid to lower TA by 100 ppm and don't add it all at once. How much dry acid by weight is safe to use at once? And we're talking adding X oz, aerating for 30 minutes, and repeating? And this process can be stopped when the TA is at 50 ppm?) (I am very confused by the statement add enough acid to bring pH to 7, but then in the summary, don't add it all at once.)

7) Add borates. I'll be using Gentle Spa (Amazon.com) (Nitro post says ideal amount is 50 ppm (I don't think the K-2006 drop test kit will test borates), how do I measure this? Should I use "borax" in the PoolMath Calculator? That would suggest 19oz by weight for 325 gallons.)

And on to Sanitation ....

1) Shock to 10 ppm FC with Dichlor

2) Continue monitoring FC level on a daily basis and adding Dichlor until you have added 34 ppm, which will put you at 30 CYA

3) Daily additions of Dichlor are based on daily measured FC vs desired FC of 6 ppm

4) Switch to bleach after 34 ppm of Dichlor has been added

I think the rest will be monitoring FC based on spa usage. I may have some additional questions regarding the use of MPS, but I want to get a good grip on FC levels for 1-2 people using the spa 2-3 times per week first.

Thank you in advance to anyone who takes the time to read though all of this madness and comment on it. I have had my spa for nearly two months now. I have drained and refilled it 4 times. Each time I have learned a bit more and gotten closer to a successful end result, but I'm just not quite there yet.

If it comes easy, was it really worth it?

 

[Bperry]

Hello. New spa owner who has been having quite a few problems with water chemistry. Mostly due to my own lack of knowledge from the beginning, but I've done a lot of reading and I think I know what direction I need to be headed in. I have been using test strips so these figures are not precise. I do have a Taylor K-2006 drop test kit on the way that I will use after draining and refilling the spa.

Water is running through a softener. Tested both a bathroom faucet and the outside spigot that is being used to fill the spa with test strips. Outside spigot has been tested with and without a pre-filter.

Spa: Bueno Spa Jersey Hot Tub
Water Capacity: Manual states minimum water is 1136 liter or approx. 300 gallons (should I use 300 in the PoolMath Calculator or up it to 325?)
CH: 0-? (very low)
CYA: 0
TA: 180-240
pH: 8.4-8.8

After asking some questions at a spa store, I was told to use dry acid (Clorox pH down) to bring down the pH and the TA would follow. Nothing was asked or mentioned about calcium hardness. This may have eventually worked, but I was following the directions on the dry acid container and when I compare that to the PoolMath Calculator, I don't believe I was adding nearly enough dry acid. I was adding 1.5-3 tsp at a time and the pH wasn't budging. The PoolMath Calculator suggests with a pH of 8.8 and TA at 240, I would need to add 2.7 oz by volume or 16.2 tsp of dry acid to bring the pH down to 7.0 from 8.8. (Am I thinking about all of this correctly?) Moving forward I will measure everything by weight for accuracy.

I did eventually get my pH down to 7.2 and TA down to 40-50 ppm by using a product called Acid Magic (tested with strips and calibrated digital pH tester). The container stated to use it exactly as you would use 31.45% - 20 Baume muriatic acid, but I had to use way more of this product than what the PoolMath Calculator suggested for regular muriatic acid of the same strength. (Possibly due to starting out with TA at 180 - 240 ppm?) After a few days my water became very cloudy and while I believe it to be due to the chlorine levels or lack thereof, I think the best thing to do is start over with a fresh fill. There are other things that I have attempted, but I won't get into it, because it only adds chaos and confusion to a situation that already has too much of both.

I'm going to drain my spa once more and start over using what I have learned from Nitro, but I do have a few questions. I'll run through each step of the process in the order that I plan to tackle the issues and ask my questions. I'll highlight my questions in red, so they are easier to spot. I've read the post 20+ times over the past week in an effort to completely understand the process and formulate the questions that I still have.

1) Fill spa with soft water and heat to 95F (Is 95F sufficient? Nitro mentions near 100F, how does the water temp affect this process?)

2) Test CH and add Calcium Chloride to bring up to 130-150 ppm (If I'm going from 0-50 to 150 ppm, how long should I wait before I retest? Can all of the Calcium Chloride be added in one shot?)

3) Test pH and TA

4) Input current levels into PoolMath Calculator, set destired pH to 7 and desired TA to 50 ppm

5) Turn on jets, air, blowers, waterfalls ... Add enough acid to bring pH to 7. Aerate until pH is 7.8 again (30 minutes).

6) Add more acid and repeat until TA is at 50 ppm (Each time that this is repeated, should I be adding enough acid to bring the pH down to 7 based on the current pH reading, up until the point at which the TA is at 50 ppm?) (This is the part that I am not clear on. The summary says it takes 8oz of dry acid to lower TA by 100 ppm and don't add it all at once. How much dry acid by weight is safe to use at once? And we're talking adding X oz, aerating for 30 minutes, and repeating? And this process can be stopped when the TA is at 50 ppm?) (I am very confused by the statement add enough acid to bring pH to 7, but then in the summary, don't add it all at once.)

7) Add borates. I'll be using Gentle Spa (Amazon.com) (Nitro post says ideal amount is 50 ppm (I don't think the K-2006 drop test kit will test borates), how do I measure this? Should I use "borax" in the PoolMath Calculator? That would suggest 19oz by weight for 325 gallons.)

And on to Sanitation ....

1) Shock to 10 ppm FC with Dichlor

2) Continue monitoring FC level on a daily basis and adding Dichlor until you have added 34 ppm, which will put you at 30 CYA

3) Daily additions of Dichlor are based on daily measured FC vs desired FC of 6 ppm

4) Switch to bleach after 34 ppm of Dichlor has been added

I think the rest will be monitoring FC based on spa usage. I may have some additional questions regarding the use of MPS, but I want to get a good grip on FC levels for 1-2 people using the spa 2-3 times per week first.

Thank you in advance to anyone who takes the time to read though all of this madness and comment on it. I have had my spa for nearly two months now. I have drained and refilled it 4 times. Each time I have learned a bit more and gotten closer to a successful end result, but I'm just not quite there yet.

If it comes easy, was it really worth it?

Don’t do anything until the test kit arrives except add liquid chlorine. The strips are junk.

 

[tonydatillo]

I actually didn't plan on doing anything until I have test results. Is there a reason I should add liquid chlorine prior to testing and balancing the water?

 

[Mdragger88]

I actually didn't plan on doing anything until I have test results. Is there a reason I should add liquid chlorine prior to testing and balancing the water?

Because there is none - & no fc = nasty in a hurry.

Lets simplify,
1. Chlorine is King FC/CYA Levels
2. Ph is Queen (anywhere in the 7’s is fine)
3. All the rest you can worry about later - including actively trying to lower your ta.
You simply manage ph (aiming for 7.0/7.2) & ta will lower. As you aerate (either on purpose or normally) ph will rise again & then you can lower it again. And so on
While a ta of 50 is nice & helps mitigate ph rise it doesn’t have to happen immediately. Work on actively lowering ph/ta when you have time.
Never lower ph below 7.
Do not trust the strips. Do not extrapolate/guess the value. If your phenol red ph test shows the max value (8.2) then use that for your calculations in poolmath.
If your ph is really higher than that it may take a few rounds of dosing to get a readable ph.
Using dichlor is acidic so take that into consideration before also adding acid.
Use poolmath effects of adding to see the effects.
We recommend using muriatic acid to lower ph as dry acid contains sulfates which aren’t good for your heater.
It seems there is a bug in poolmath in regards to dry acid - for dry chemicals it should say “by weight” not “by volume”.
Try navigating away & then returning to that parameter’s page to see if it changes.
Once ta is in the 50/60 range you can add borates (doing so before then means you will need to use more acid to lower ph each time).

For adding Borates we recommend using Boric acid- it is the simplest way & has the least effect on ph/ta.
I add what poolmath says & then let it ride for the duration of the fill. If i suffer alot of splashout I will lower the value in poolmath over time so i don’t accidentally overshoot my acid additions.
I used to test it with the strips but it was always spot on so I don’t bother anymore since you dump spa water at regular intervals.

Ch- having little to no ch is fine.
If you experience foaming you can add some in increments of 50ppm until it gets better up to 150ppm.

If you haven’t done so, order some Ahhsome to purge your tub with at the next drain/refill.

 

[tonydatillo]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate the comprehensive response.

I read the sticky by Nitro over and over again while taking my own notes and I don't think he gets to sanitization until after the water is balanced (correct me if I'm wrong), so I assumed this was the order in which things should be done. If you're reading that sticky as a newbie without any prior knowledge, nothing there would lead a person to believe that FC/CYA should come first. What you are saying makes sense to me, and while I learned a lot from his information, it should be noted that this isn't a step by step guide for someone with little or zero knowledge on the subject. We don't know what we don't know.

So, if #1 is FC/CYA levels ... Should I shock to FC 10 ppm with Dichlor (assuming FC is 0) immediately after refilling the Spa and prior to bringing the temp to 95F? I know you said Liquid Chlorine, but my plan was to use Dichlor until the CYA reached 30 ppm and then switch to bleach for sanitization.

 

[Mdragger88]

So, if #1 is FC/CYA levels ... Should I shock to FC 10 ppm with Dichlor (assuming FC is 0) immediately after refilling the Spa and prior to bringing the temp to 95F? I know you said Liquid Chlorine, but my plan was to use Dichlor until the CYA reached 30 ppm and then switch to bleach for sanitization.

Basically yes, assuming your ph can take the hit from the dichlor without going too low. You don’t have to wait until the spa reaches temp if thats what you mean.
You also don’t have to go to slam level- anywhere between minimum & slam level is fine.
One other note- be sure you’re using 99% dichlor or the poolmath calculations won’t be accurate.
The nitro post is quite old and we’re working on a better, more simplified guide but its hard to pack all that important info into less words lol.
Currently we have this guide which lacks the detailed info about the dichlor then bleach method

Hot Tub Basics - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[tonydatillo]

Thank you, Mdragger88! The Dichlor I bought (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CDY1H1VJ) is 99% sodium dichloro-s triazinetrione dihydrate. Hopefully this is sufficient.

I had something on hand called "oh yuk" (Amazon.com) that I used prior to draining the tub last night. Maybe a knock off of AhhSome, but I figured I would use it since I already had it. The spa was pretty much sparkly clean after draining. I'll get some AhhSome to have on hand, just because it is so widely known and trusted. No reason not to use something that many many people swear by.

I refilled the spa this morning using soft water and a hose filter. I immediately added 0.8oz by weight of Dichlor (this was based on going from 0 to 10 FC for 325 gallons) and ran the jets for 60 minutes. Put the cover on and now it is heating to 95F.

Drop test kit will arrive tomorrow. I'm excited to be doing this the right way this time and with the help of the knowledge of this forum.

 

[Mdragger88]

That dichlor looks fine & is similar in price to the hth version I usually buy a walmart.
One of those containers lasts me well over a year in my 250 gal tub.
*Note that cya degrades over time - this happens faster as the water gets hotter.
I keep my tub around 103/104 so I need to use a little dichlor every week or two to keep my cya topped up. I try to coincide this dose with a day when I also need to lower ph - 2 birds 1 stone.
The oh yuk is totally fine to use up but don’t be surprised if more than you expect is busted loose when you start using ahhsome. That’s been the experience of many.
Also The oh yuk (liquid version) takes like 1/2 the bottle whereas the ahhsome gel is concentrated & only takes a teaspoon or so in my small tub so I get quite a few uses per container. Its easier to store the smaller container too. (Now its an easy squeeze tube)

I think you’ve about nailed things!
Happy hot tubbing!

 

[tonydatillo]

Thanks again, Mdragger88. I was able to get my pH down to 7.2 tonight with a TA of 60. Running the jets at the moment to see how much the pH drifts up.

I've been continuing to use the Dichlor on a daily basis to keep my FC at 6. I may test the CYA tomorrow to see where it is. I should be at about 22 based on the amount of Dichlor I have added over the past several days.

Something has been running through my mind about FC though and I have a question about it. I've been topping it off at 6-7 FC each evening and when I retest 24 hours later I'm down to 2.5-3.5. The spa hasn't been used since I started testing daily so I'm wondering if it is normal to lose that much FC in a 24 hour period? And if so, how does one maintain the FC level when say they go on vacation or have to travel for work? If the name of the game is never letting FC drop to zero, I feel like I'm going to have to add a lot of bleach when I'm traveling for 7 consecutive days in October. Is it ok to add enough bleach that your FC level is near 30, if you're going to be away for a week?

Also, what is the major downside to letting your FC drop to zero when the spa is not in use?

Edited to add: I suppose there is no reason to test the CYA until I believe I'm at 30 or slightly above, because the Taylor K-2006 won't read anything below 30.

 

[Mdragger88]

Thanks again, Mdragger88. I was able to get my pH down to 7.2 tonight with a TA of 60. Running the jets at the moment to see how much the pH drifts up.

Don’t worry if the ph wants to hang out in the high 7’s - for quite some time.
wait until its 8.0 or even a dab higher so then lower to 7.6 at the lowest. The lower you drop ph the faster it will climb.
Also - it will rise with aeration but be sure to test after the tub calms down so its a true reading.
Synopsis: No rush to lower ph & there’s no “perfect” ph - anywhere in the 7’s is

I've been continuing to use the Dichlor on a daily basis to keep my FC at 6. I may test the CYA tomorrow to see where it is. I should be at about 22 based on the amount of Dichlor I have added over the past several days.

Something has been running through my mind about FC though and I have a question about it. I've been topping it off at 6-7 FC each evening and when I retest 24 hours later I'm down to 2.5-3.5. The spa hasn't been used since I started testing daily so I'm wondering if it is normal to lose that much FC in a 24 hour period? And if so, how does one maintain the FC level when say they go on vacation or have to travel for work? If the name of the game is never letting FC drop to zero, I feel like I'm going to have to add a lot of bleach when I'm traveling for 7 consecutive days in October. Is it ok to add enough bleach that your FC level is near 30, if you're going to be away for a week?

Most experience somewhere in the 1-2 or 3 ppm range for standby losses. Its possible you still have some biofilms that are contributing to your fc demand. Your next purge will hopefully take care of that. Many have found that even after a clean oh yuk purge they get more gunk out with an Ahhsome purge which is why we recommend it here.
When manually dosing I can get by for a week of standby by raising my fc to slam level.
Upon my return it is still above minimum.
*The fc loss is not linear. (Like x amount per hour) the higher the fc the faster it burns off so to speak. But the daily standby demand you are tracking is still a decent metric to calculate with.
When going away I also turn the temp all the way down so the heater really never runs if its warm at all outside. This helps conserve fc. & electricity.
Going just a scootch above slam level is ok since it will be probably lower in a day. I assume by October you’ll have cya in the 30-40 range- so for example 16ppm would buy you 7 days +2ppm to spare if demand was approx 2 ppm/day.
If you have ozone or uv this will oxidize your standby fc. Please fill out your signature with your spa details.

Create Your Signature - Further Reading

www.google.com

Also, what is the major downside to letting your FC drop to zero when the spa is not in use?

Cooties proliferating

Edited to add: I suppose there is no reason to test the CYA until I believe I'm at 30 or slightly above, because the Taylor K-2006 won't read anything below 30.

Correct wait until you know you’re at a solid 30/40ppm
If you keep logs in poolmath just add each dichlor dose’s cya amount manually to help you keep up with it.

If you travel alot you may consider getting a salt water chlorine generator to feed your spa it’s standby needs.
You’ll still likely need to manually dose after some bather loads but you won’t have to worry about when you’re away.

 

[tonydatillo]

I think I'm good with the pH and TA at this point. It has been hanging around 7.4 for the past several days with a TA of 60. I'll have to do some pH tests immediately after aeration to satisfy my curiosity of knowing how much it creeps up, but that is probably only to satisfy my curiosity. I really think I'm in a good place here since I'm consistently at 7.4 when things are calm. At this stage would it be safe to say I can test pH weekly and only add acid if I'm above 8 when the water is calm?

I finished usage of Dichlor late Saturday night after being in the spa for 90 minutes. I added enough to get to 8 ppm FC at 1230PM on Saturday (prior to using the spa) and then tested again at 930PM after I had been in the spa for 90 minutes. I was down to 5 ppm FC at that point. I then added enough Dichlor to put me at 10 ppm FC and was down to 4 ppm FC a little less than two days later (Monday). I neglected to do any testing on Sunday.

Tonight I tested CYA and was at 36, so I switched to bleach. Unless someone has another suggestion, I'm going to add bleach daily to top myself off at 6 ppm FC and monitor the demand for the next 4-5 days without using the spa. Curious to know what the daily demand really is with no use.

Still slightly worried about when I leave town for a week next month though. If my daily demand is pushing 3ish as opposed to 2ish, is there any harm in adding 24 ppm FC via bleach before I leave other than possibly having a higher FC level than expected when I return?

I'll look into a salt water chlorine generator. Any brands/models that you suggest?

 

[wireform]

Following, great info.

 

[Mdragger88]

I wouldn’t go much above slam fc level. Like 1 days worth above.
About the ph- you’ve been using dichlor which is acidic and has likely been keeping your ph down. You may notice a change once you’re solely using liquid chlorine.
Ph will always be rising in a spa - you’re accurate about waiting until it reaches 8.0 to lower but that may be in a couple days or so- can’t just blanket state once a week.
The ph should be checked every time you use the spa to ensure its in the 7’s. Or at least as often as you test fc during standby periods.
While you’re away be sure the water level is high enough that there’s not much turbulence when the circulation pumps come on & you can also possibly alter your filter/circ schedule to reduce how often it comes on to help reduce aeration & in turn ph rise in your absence.
There’s a few options for drape over swg’s
*Solaxx Saltron mini - cells last about 18 months average. (In my experience this equates to roughly 1600hrs of runtime)
My controller box lasted about 5 years which seems to be average.

* ControlOmatic- 7,000 hr advertised cell life span
They have several flavors in order of least$ to most$$:
-Chlormaker (Base model) - manual set point similar to the saltron mini but instead of hours its measured in levels
-Smarter Spa (supposed to sense fc & make it as needed)
- Smarter Spa+ (same as above w/ wifi capability)
- MegaChlor for swim spas

* Briidea (& others on amazon) - the jury is still out on this budget option as the lifespan & output are not well documented. Lots of duds & sudden quitters in the reviews.

I have been through several saltron mini cells over the last 6 years and 1 controller.
After my supply of spares is consumed I will likely make the switch to the ControlOmatic brand as the replacement cell pricing is very similar now and the lifespan is much longer.