Optimize Your In-Floor Cleaning Effectiveness and Efficiency

[jonpcar]

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Original Claim - see PRELUDE below it

OK, I have made some quick edits to this thread after laying awake all night and realizing that I have wasted $1000s (probably $5K-$7K) over the past 25 years by not adjusting one valve on my system. More edits and comments are coming but here is what I believe to be the bottom line:

I adjusted one valve on my system and doubled the effectiveness of my pool's In-Floor Cleaning System (IFCS) AND also improved its power efficiency by 50%.
---------------------------------

PRELUDE

Through this thread's conversations, I have realized that the claims above are true; though not because I found "the" golden elixir to fixing ALL In-Floor-Cleaning-Systems even though it was "golden" for me. They are true because my in-floor cleaning system had been running inefficiently (and ineffectively) for the last 25 years. I suspect that there are many in-floor systems in use that are similarly running inefficiently and would benefit from adjustments.

FURTHER UPDATE: I stopped making changes/postings to this thread as I have gotten involved with other projects, some related to this thread and some totally unrelated (like helping raise twin grandsons for a year, haha). IFCSs are not as complicated as this thread indicates, but there are some intricacies. For those that understand the data and how it applies to their IFCS , I think one of the most informative graphs of this thread is in this post:

POST #173 On this Page...

Optimize Your In-Floor Cleaning Effectiveness and Efficiency

So, my re-plumbing job is finished and it went really well. I probably missed jonpcar off for his cruise, but will quickly report that the main goal of my re-plumb was achieved. That is, the pressure loss from filter to Caretaker manifold was drastically reduced. I am really happy about that...

www.troublefreepool.com

End of FURTHER UPDATE

Through these experiments, I found operating points my IFCS ran at a higher energy efficiency, and at double the effective cleaning rate. Operating at these points is going to save money and make my in-floor cleaning more effective. Even though I still have not found my "optimum" operating point, I am continuing experiments to get closer. Thanks to all who are participating in this process.

One conclusion of this thread was already known by the experts on this board (thanks Mark, mas985): to ensure optimal energy efficiency for in-floor cleaning, you MUST run your in-floor cleaning system at the minimum required manifold PSI which still cleans your pool effectively. A different interpretation is that this turns out to be the minimum GPM required to run your in-floor cleaning system. It took me a Sandlot "for-eeeeeeee-ver" to comprehend and fully accept this.

It turns out that there are some extensions to this conclusion that may apply to some systems. If your in-floor cleaning system works better with higher GPM than the minimum described in the previous paragraph (for various reasons, some being explored in this thread), then there is a method to increase GPM through your in-floor cleaning system that may not impact energy efficiency "that much". This method is an alternative to simply upping the RPM of your pump to achieve higher GPM...a method that is of course inherently inefficient. Benefits to these extensions are still being explored.

After realizing this...I am going through this thread and making changes to my comments that are simply wrong, misleading, red herrings, etc. This is a work in progress and will take some time. Actually this editing process is on hold temporarily while we discuss more issues in this thread...my understanding of the terms "effectiveness" and "efficiency" continues to evolve. I don't want to go back and re-edit my edits (which I have already done in many cases, haha). So if you start reading this thread, keep in mind that there are some inaccuracies and errors in many of my posts, especially the earlier ones up until my personal "eureka" moment at post #105. However, that doesn't mean my posts after that don't have issues, this topic turns out to be more complicated than I initially thought.

Eventually, I hope to be able to consolidate some of the best suggestions/discussions of this thread into a single spot, if (tbd) there are some that are generally useful (kind of a Best Known Methods approach). Some BKMs may be related to the "extensions" mentioned above, others may not.

This will take some time. My "experiments" have turned out to be a fun time-sink that have pretty much sucked up ALL my spare time for the last 10 days and cannot continue to do so. After the initial flurry, this process is going to slow down and eventually stop. However, participation IS encouraged! I would love to hear of anyone wanting to attempt similar projects or characterizing of their In-Floor Cleaning System (IFCS).

-----------------------------


Back to the original thread...

A few years ago when I did my pool remodel and pool equipment replacement, I had bought a FlowVIS meter to measure pump flow in Gallons per Minute (GPM). I never got around to installing it until yesterday afternoon and have now realized that I should have done this a while ago. I spent most of yesterday late afternoon and this morning taking data to look at for cleaning system optimization. I have come to some conclusions that are specific to my pool equipment/setup, but certainly apply to many others as well.

Here is a picture of my install…

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for VSP Pump Optimization and In-floor Cleaning System Efficiency Analysi

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I took a bunch of data at various pump speeds and various system configurations. Some were very similar so I’ll be posting only some subsets. I varied the pump RPM in all configurations. My pump is a Hayward Ecostar and was set to values from 100% max (3450 RPM), down to 20% max (690 RPM).

The data I collected was: Wattage (Watts), Gallons per Minute (GPM), Filter Pressure (for the heck of it).

The data derived that I will show here is Gallons per kWh: this is the # of gallons of pool water filtered for each kWh that you are charged by your electric company. The higher this number, the more efficiently you are operating your pump. This is calculated by the following formula:

Gallons/kWH = (GPM*60*1000)/Watts

[Unknown to me at the time of this post is that there is already a standard called Energy Factor (EF) that measures the energy efficiency of pumps. Energy Factor is Gallons/Wh which means that it is the same number that I have calculated above but not multiplied by 1000. EF = Gallons/Wh = (GPM*60)/Watts. The higher the EF, the more efficient your pump is operating.]

Here in Gilbert, AZ we have pretty cheap power. Right now, I am on the Time of Use Plan and each kWh is roughly 7.5 cents offpeak, and 22 cents onpeak (1-8PM Mon-Fri). We are pretty lucky from some of the values I have seen posted.

The system configurations tested included 1) Returns through Pool Wall Returns 2) Returns through Pool Waterfall 3) Returns through Pool In-floor Cleaning System 4) And a couple variations that you will see.

#2 (Return through Pool Waterfall) were ballpark close enough to #1 that I will not even post about that. I also collected data for most of these scenarios in which I drew water from the Top (skimmer) and from the Bottom (drain), controlled by my skimmer diverter. Once again these were ballpark equivalent although drawing from the bottom put more strain/effort on the pump in general. I attribute that to additional piping, turns in the pipe from bottom drain to skimmer.

By the way…please point out any mistakes you might see in my methodology or calculations, I put this together rather quickly, and on the fly.

====

Edit: this table and the following comments within this post are common knowledge in that VS pumps can run slower and save you power overall by filtering the water more slowly. Really the interesting information here is that using the FlowVIS, there is a way to determine the "optimum" point to run your pump at, and that my pump (and I am sure others as well) have a floor to increasing that efficiency...going too low actually hurts efficiency.

100% Return through Pool's Wall Returns

Pump Speed	RPM	Watts	GPM	Filter Pressure	Gallons/kWh
100	3450	2290	105	24.5		2751	<max flow through system is in the 100gpm to 105gpm range
95	3278	2190	102	22.5		2795	<
90	3105	1653	93	20		3376
85	2933	1366	90	18		3953
80	2760	1145	83	16		4349
75	2588	933	78	14.5		5016
70	2415	762	70	12.5		5512
65	2243	616	63	11		6136
60	2070	493	58	9.5		7059
55	1898	391	53	8		8133
50	1725	315	48	6.5		9143
45	1553	251	41	5.5		9801
40	1380	199	36	4		10854
35	1208	152	30	3.5		11842	< most "power efficient" setting for pool filtering
30	1035	140	22	2.5		9429
25	863	136	18	1.5		7941
20	690	136	8	1		3529

[previous to doing these experiments, I was running my pump to skim/filter (not for cleaning using the popups) at the 30% , 1035 RPM level, almost 20% less efficient than my new number]

The most efficient spot to operate my pump is at 35% max speed, a point at which almost 12K gallons of water can be moved through the filter per kWh. IF I can filter my water sufficiently (to my satisfaction) during the timeframe of a physical day (actually I only run the pump in off-peak electricity hours), then that is the speed I should run my pump at (35% max =1208 RPM) to be most efficient when I am not using the cleaning system.

On the EcoStar there appears to be a bottom minimum to the power draw (136 watts) which means that it doesn't make a lot of sense to operate at 30% or less. One reason might be for a water feature (for example my waterfalls) where I just want a dribbling of water for background ambience.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for VSP Pump Optimization and In-floor Cleaning System Efficiency Analysi

Following are some long posts but may are especially worthwhile to those with in-floor cleaning systems.

The next set of data was taken by varying the pump speed with the return through my in-floor cleaning system. My in-floor cleaning system is one of the earlier ones (built in 1993), so I would expect these have gotten better since that time and might avoid some of the issues I see with my data. But, I don’t know if you can tell for sure unless you take the data, I wouldn’t have been able to. Examples of improvements include 2” piping (mine are only 1 ½” and I am stuck with them) and more efficient distribution heads/cleaning pop-ups.

Some notes about this data beforehand. (1) In general, in-floor cleaning systems rotate through zones in the pool. When they move from one zone to the next, there is some time when both zones are “on” and there is increased flow through the system. I didn’t take the data during these transition times, I waited for only one zone to be active to read the flows, power, etc. (2) Also, each zone is slightly different because of number of heads, different pipe lengths, etc. I DIDn’t take the data from only one zone to be perfectly consistent (which would have taken forever)…I did notice some differences when the pump would select the zones that included smaller step pop-ups, but it wasn’t enough difference to make me want to change my methodology.

I’m only posting pump max speeds down to 70% since the in-floor cleaning system requires higher speeds to operate the pop-ups. Also, when cleaning the pool, pump efficiency is not the critical concern, cleaning your pool is. Therefore, whatever speed you run your pump at has to have sufficient power/pressure to move debris/dirt around in your pool so that (eventually) it is sucked into the drain or the skimmer so that the filter can filter it out of the pool water.

100% Return through the In-Floor Cleaning System

Pump Speed	RPM	Watts	GPM	Filter Pressure	Gallons/KWh
100	3450	1614	50	34		1859	< max flow through "cleaning" system is only 50gpm
95	3278	1412	49	31		2082
90	3105	1206	47	27.5		2338
85	2933	1008	43	24.5		2560
80	2760	873	40	22		2749	< here and here are where I've
75	2588	691	37	19.5		3213	< been operating my pump for cleaning
70	2415	573	33	17		3455
65	2243	473	31	14.5		3932

[As we find out, I should NOT have been running my system at the 80%, 2760 RPM number. I was overdriving my popups and wasting energy pushing the water around too forcefully. Fixing that is the main reason that I saw an improvement in my Power Efficiency of 50%. When I eventually ran tests on my system I found that I should have been running my pump at closer to the 65%, 2243 RPM, which results in a much more efficient Gallons/kWh (3932). However, note that at that pump speed, I would only be filtering 31 gpm, which affects my discussion below.]

Over the last few years (since my VSP install), I have been running my cleaning system at the 75%/80% pool pump max numbers. I usually run it for a few hours in the morning (off peak electricity) to do the cleaning and have generally been satisfied by it. This means (by looking at the table 75-80%) that I get about 40 gallons per minute blasting out of my pool pop-ups to stir up the dirt and debris. The Gallons/KWh are terrible as compared to the previous table in the prior post: In my usage model, the pool filters only ¼ of the gallons per kWh of electricity when using the cleaning system vs the pool wall returns (approximately 3K gallons vs 12k gallons). But remember, here the goal is to clean the pool, not be power efficient; so you have to bite the bullet to some degree.

The BAD thing about blasting out 40 gallons per minute on the popups is that the system is ONLY filtering 40 gallons per minute of water, really cr@appy considering the max flow for my system seems to be about 100 GPM. [NOTE: I later find that my optimum run rate is actually only 31 GPM, even worse than the 40 talked about here] Remember the goal is to "stir up" the debris so that it can be filtered, 40gpm doesn't accomplish that effectively or quickly. I realized that suction of my cleaning system is extremely limited by its “return” capability to the pool through the cleaning pop-ups. Look at the upper limit hit (around 50 gpm) even when operating the pump at its highest speeds 90-100%. I'm sure many others have this same issue, especially older systems like mine.

In any case, what I wanted to try was to enable two zones at a time in my cleaning system’s head distributer just to see what would happen to the numbers. I took it apart trying to figure out if there was some way to jury-rig that possibility…there wasn’t, especially considering that since I am the pool's original owner, I continue to get free replacement parts (pop-ups, gears, etc) as part of Shasta’s original warranty on its cleaning system. I didn’t want to take a chance on losing that.

So instead, I decided on some experiments to increase the flow (GPM) by partially opening the pool's wall return valves in parallel with the cleaning system return. My goal was to increase the flow through the system (particularly the filter) during cleaning so that it filters faster and possibly more efficiently.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for VS Pump Optimization and In-floor Cleaning System Efficiency Analysis

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Those who have messed around with the Jandy valves actuators [I am actually describing the actuator here, not the valve itself so keep that in mind. A system that just has the 3-way valve should have much finer control of flow than with an actuator] know that you don’t have to set the valves to just an on or off position. In a 3-way actuator controlled valve, there is a range of settings that allows water to enter or exit from two of the ports simultaneously…and the actuator supports partitioning that in roughly 8-10 different proportions (I am guessing here as I did not count the "notches").

I decided to move one of the actuator’s stop mechanisms so that when water is primarily returned via the pool cleaning system, it also returned the minimum possible via the pool’s wall returns. I moved the appropriate Jandy actuator stop by only ONE notch to accomplish this. I reran the different pump experiments and recorded the results. Here is where some subjectivity occurs: I also dived in the pool to try and judge how much water was being returned via the pool’s floor cleaning system versus the pool wall returns. For this experiment, I estimated about 10%-20% of the water came from the walls, and 80-90% via the cleaning system. I didn’t think this was going to make much difference. Here are the results:

[the only way of really knowing if the flow rate out of the popups was actually the same as the previous case, is to make sure the PSI at the manifold is the same as the original case, so my "estimates" about how much was going to each side were simply guesses.

As it turns out, for this case, about 30 gpm were coming from the floor popups and about 8 gpm were coming from the wall returns, roughly a 75%/25% ratio, I am not fixing any of the discussion that takes place based on my original assumption]

Return via Pool Cleaning System (85%75%) AND Pool Wall Returns (15%25%) - Jandy stop moved ONE notch

Pump Speed	RPM	Watts	GPM	Filter Pressure	Gallons/KWh
100	3450	1707	56	33		1968	<max flow through modified "cleaning" system has increased to 56gpm from 50gpm
95	3278	1502	55	27		2197
90	3105	1280	53	25		2484
85	2933	1065	50	24		2817
80	2760	903	49	21		3256	< pool cleaning system felt roughly equivalent here
75	2588	735	43	18.5		3510
70	2415	605	40	16		3967

At 80% max pump speed, there was an equivalent feel for the output of the in-floor pop-ups that I had run for the past 3-4 years using ONLY the pool’s cleaning system . It makes sense that at 49 GPM flow, and 80% return to the in-floor cleaning system, I got roughly the same 40 gallons blasting out of my pop-ups (49*.80=40).

Now my cleaning system was filtering a bit more water (49 gallons versus the previous 40 gallons) AND the pump efficiency went up slightly as well (3256 Gallons/kWh vs 2749 Gallons/kWh) . So I decided to take it one step further.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for VS Pump Optimization and In-floor Cleaning System Efficiency Analysis

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I next moved the Jandy stop another notch over (2 notches total), so that even more water was returned via the pool’s wall returns. In my first post’s picture you can see this 3-way valve in the background. 100% flow to the cleaning system would require the lever on that valve to be horizontal. Instead, flow towards the pool’s wall returns (and waterfall) is slightly open.

I reran the tests and jumped into the pool to “feel” the effects on the cleaning system and wall returns. My cleaning system drives two larger pop-ups for most zones. In the pool for this experiment, the flow coming from the wall returns felt equivalent to the flow coming from the active cleaning system pop-ups…it was very, very close. I concluded that about 50% of the flow was going to the cleaning system and 50% to the two wall returns. Here are the results:

[the only way of really knowing if the flow rate out of the popups was actually the same as the previous case, is to make sure the PSI at the manifold is the same as the original case, so my "estimates" about how much was going to each side were simply guesses

As it turns out, for the case I chose equivalence in feel, about 27 gpm were coming from the floor popups and 53 gpm were coming from the wall returns, roughly a 37%/63% ratio, I am not fixing any of the discussion that takes place based on my original assumption]

Return via Pool Cleaning System (50%37%) AND Pool Wall Returns (50%63%) – Jandy stop moved TWO notches

Pump Speed	RPM	Watts	GPM	Filter Pressure	Gallons/KWh
100	3450	2186	98	27		2690	<max flow through modified "cleaning" system has doubled to 98gpm from 50gpm
95	3278	1878	95	24		3035
90	3105	1594	90	21.5		3388
85	2933	1331	85	19.5		3832
80	2760	1115	79	17.5		4251	< pool cleaning system felt roughly equivalent here
75	2588	910	72	15		4747

WOW…big difference here. At the point at which I judged the water blasting out of my pop-ups to be equivavlent to how I had previously run (using only the cleaning system returns), I was now getting 79 gallons run through the filter system per minute…half of it returning through the cleaning system (still 40 GPM, 79*.50=40) and half of it through the two wall returns. And now…the wall returns felt like cleaning jets stirring up the water even more. I plan on directing these towards the floor now to help stir things up when I am using the in-floor cleaning system.

Even better still, when cleaning, the power efficiency just jumped all the way to 4250 gallons/kWh as compared to my initial 2749 gallons/kWh (50% more efficient). The filter pressure (and back pressure against the pump) is also lower than my previous readings...you can't tell from the numbers I posted here, but the filter pressure is not only lower, but more consistent as the cleaning system changes from zone to zone.

[Remember, the reason I gained in power efficiency is that I was previously running my system very inefficiently and was wasting power by overdriving my popups]

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

So after posting the previous post last night, I went to bed last night and started thinking…and thinking, and thinking. I adjusted one valve and doubled the effectiveness of my in-floor cleaning system AND also improved its power efficiency by 50%. [true, as compared to what I was running]

I got little sleep because I realized how much money I have probably wasted over the years because my cleaning system, as setup, was NOT as effective as it could be and certainly inefficient (don’t worry, I won’t lose any more sleep, haha, water under-the-bridge). The restricted flow through the cleaning system was unnecessarily choking off the filtering system. [cleaning speed of the in-floor cleaning system was only 40gpm, resulting in longer cleaning times and less effectiveness]

For 20 years I had a single stage pump that I ran 10-12 hours a day (after storms sometimes 24/7 for days on end, or more when I forgot to turn it back, which was fairly often). I never even used my valve to return water to the pool wall returns because my thinking that it was always better to clean the pool while running the pump.

What I never thought about was the combination of returning through the cleaning system and pool wall returns as in the previous posts. Shasta pools (now A&A) built my pool and was the leading pool builder in the US for many years in the 70s-90s, I am sure there are 1000s of pools in the Phoenix area and elsewhere that have this similar issue. I hope that newer systems have avoided this problem but I don’t have any data on that.

Is my thinking wrong here? It seems right but I may have rushed to conclusions with all this exciting new data that I collected and threw out so quickly...haha.

 

[mitchellb]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

I read this with interest since I have a caretaker in-floor system and just purchased two VS pentair pumps 6 months ago. The numbers are interesting, but the proof will be evident only if you are satisfied with the cleanliness of your pool after diverting half of your flow away from your pop-up heads. I've had my own struggles with the in-floor system over the 24 years I've owned my pool. My final solution was to have two pumps. One for my spillover spa and one isolated just on my main pool in-floor system. This seems to work for me.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Mitchell, thanks for the comment...with the new settings, the data shows that I am getting roughly the SAME flow to my cleaning heads (~40 gpm) and an additional 40gpm back through the wall returns (note that there is a bit of subjectivity here based on my estimate of the flows from the cleaning heads vs the wall returns but it is very close). This results in a flow back through the filter of 80gpm and why I believe the filtering system will now filter twice as efficiently during cleaning.

So, the new valve settings have not diverted any flow from my cleaning heads. The pool pump is effectively supplying BOTH return paths with 40gpm. It takes more power to do that but is much more efficient overall.

The thing I am not clear about, however, is if I am “double counting the benefits” of the filtering and the power efficiency. Are they both the same?

you are right though, ultimately it will come down to my satisfaction with the cleaning and is why I am anxiously awaiting our next desert monsoon to really stress the system, haha.

[the only way of really knowing if the flow rate out of the popups was actually the same as the previous case, is to make sure the PSI at the manifold is the same as before, so my "estimates" about how much was going to each side were just guesses

As it turns out, for this case, about 27 gpm were coming from the floor popups and 53 gpm were coming from the wall returns, roughly a 37%/63% ratio, I am not fixing any of the discussion that takes place based on my original assumption]

 

[mitchellb]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Is your plan to run your pump continuously at your newly designated high efficiency level?

I've gone to running my pump for 2 hours at the rpm required to pop up my heads and adequately clean my pool. I run the pump at very low flow (1200rpm) the rest of the day just to run my SWG and filter. My pool has never looked better and my electricity bill is down $120/month.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Mitchell, the new plan is to run with the valve changes at 2760rpm-80% max ONLY during cleaning with my in-floor system. Previously and currently that has been about 3 hours a day, I think this will be adjusted down with the new valve settings but I will see how it works out.

The rest of the time (currently about 8 hours a day), I run with returns directed fully to the pool wall returns (100%) at very low RPM. Previous to today, I had been running the low rpm level at ~1000rpm-30%max, but based on my 2nd post in this thread, that will go to the more efficient ~1200rpm-35% max speed. The amount of time I run the pump at this level will probably be adjusted downward as well, tbd.

 

[Arizonarob]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Jon very interesting findings, good job!

Now you have me wondering. Now that you have found the most efficient “sweet spot” to run your pump rpms at, now I’m curious to see Time it takes to clean the pool. Indeed a dust storm would give you the proper ammo to run that type of test.
Also, if you point your return eyeballs down, I would think you would be robbing the effectiveness of the “swirl” action needed to keep the skimmer fed. And to go a step further. I would think that all that water movement would stir up debris that has settled to the floor, rather then gently pushing it towards the main drains.

I really like the rpm findings you have arrived at, and now I’d like to hear your findings on the cleaning ability.

- - - Updated - - -

Double post.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Also, if you point your return eyeballs down, I would think you would be robbing the effectiveness of the “swirl” action needed to keep the skimmer fed. And to go a step further. I would think that all that water movement would stir up debris that has settled to the floor, rather then gently pushing it towards the main drains.

Rob, after using my cleaning sytem for the last 25 years, I can definitely conclude that there is NO rhyme or reason to how the debris gets pushed around on the floor by the pool cleaning heads...the key is to get it suspended in the water and get it to the filter as quickly as possible which my new valve adjustment allows it to do. Other systems may have the ability to direct the debris flow but not mine (I do remember claims by PC2000?? that it directed debris towards the drain, other systems could be similar). So I don't have an worries about that.

And until last week, I actually had never tried (in 25 years) to optimize my side return flows to swirl the pool water around to make it get to the skimmer better. I had never even thought about it until I read a thread last week that included some statements about doing it. I think I improved my flow...so you are right, redirecting the pool side returns would impact that (since they would be permanently in that same position when I run at low RPM). So I will have to think about that. Thanks for pointing that out.

So you think we'll get another monsoon storm this year?...I am hoping, haha. I want to try out my "new" cleaning system as well.

 

[Arizonarob]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

So you think we'll get another monsoon storm this year?...I am hoping, haha. I want to try out my "new" cleaning system as well.

According to my magic 8 ball, “all signs point to yes”.

 

[Dodger]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

I'm skeptical of judging the "feel" of water coming out of pop-ups and including that with the more scientific part of this (gpm, rpm, watts, pressure). In-floor systems are designed to run with high pressure. If you have more than enough pressure at your in-floor valve to get max distance of water out of your pop-ups, then it may work to divert some water to your wall returns. But if your plumbing configuration has low pressure at your in-floor valve, you can't afford to divert or you will have dead spots everywhere.

Mitchellb said it well: "the proof will be evident only if you are satisfied with the cleanliness of your pool."

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Dodger, I hear you. Being an engineer, I am also dissatisfied with the “feel” aspect of this experiment and wish I had a way to experimentally measure the outputs on the pop-ups and wall returns. But the term “divert” is not quite accurate with this experiment and here is why.

[There isn't a good way to measure the outputs on the popups in all cases, but you can say that the output is roughly the same in two different cases IF the manifold PSI in the manifold is the same for both cases. That's why the PSI gauge on the manifold is so important. I did not have a PSI gauge near my manifold valve at the time of this post, but later added one]

Let’s look at the 3 critical data points for the cleaning system: one each from the 3 cleaning system experiments. In particular let’s look at the 80% max (2760 rpm) spot for the test cases. This is where I previously ran my cleaning system and where I plan to run it with the new Jandy valve settings.

		Watts	GPM	Gallons/KWh
100% Cleaning (Original Configuration)		873	40	2749
Jandy 1 Notch (Test 1, approx 85% cleaning, 15% wall)	903	49	3256
Jandy 2 Notch (Final Configuration, approx 50% cleaning, 50% wall)	1115	79	4251

By opening the Jandy valve slightly, water is not simply being diverted from the cleaning heads…the pump is actually pumping MORE water volume through the system (40gpm > 49gpm > 79gpm). The pump’s wattage also increase, which makes sense…because it is doing MORE work (moving more water). In the original configuration the pump was simply spinning much of the water around in the impellers and it was not going anywhere, it had nowhere to go because the cleaning system path was totally blocked off by the back-pressure.

As far as max throw distance for the pop-ups…truthfully when my pool was designed the pop-up placement was not even in the blueprint…the guys installing it did it on the fly. Pressures were not calculated, they used rules-of-thumb because Shasta built so many pools. I suspect it is done differently nowadays.

Clearly the new cleaning configuration is going to filter twice the amount of water in the same time frame (79gpm vs 40 gpm). Will I develop new dead spots (I already have a couple where there are sometimes small collections of pebble type debris)…my guess after my scientific dives (haha) is no.

But, I’ll be sure to give some updates. Thanks for the comments.

 

[mitchellb]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Does your pump display GPM? My new Pentair pumps can be set to a specific RPM or GPM. I wonder if this feature would help you if your pump has this option.

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Mitchell, no my pump doesn’t display gpm (at least to my knowledge) but the FlowVis has excellent specs and is supposed to be accurate within XX.5%XX (if my memory serves me right...edit, apparently it did not, see below). It seems to me that a pump itself might not be able to calculate gpm accurately unless it has a flow meter on its input or output. Have you read anything about your pump’s gpm accuracy? That’s a really nice feature!

flowvis review here: https://www.troublefreepool.com/thr...eview?highlight=Flowvis&p=1377060#post1377060

From that review: “Accuracy is reported by the manufacturer as ‘greater than 95%’ and ‘>97.9%”

 

[Dodger]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Fluid mechanics was not a topic I studied, so I hesitate to try to engage on flow vs pressure. But, I can report anecdotally that when I change my cleaner bypass valve from 100% open to anywhere below that, I get ZERO pressure increase in my Caretaker valve. When I get to about 90% open on the bypass, the pressure in the Caretaker starts to drop. So, while the pump may work harder, or there may be more flow, it does not result in more pressure in my cleaner, which is what I am trying to achieve for proper cleaning (max throw from pop-ups.)

I may have missed this, but did you read an in-floor valve pressure for each datapoint?

Another question I have is about faster filtering or getting more water through the filter in a given amount of time. I may be misunderstanding what you mean. There are many threads on here where the experts and mods debunk the idea of having to turn over a certain amount of water. So what is the advantage of faster filtering?

 

[jonpcar]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Fluid mechanics was not a topic I studied, so I hesitate to try to engage on flow vs pressure.

Ditto for me.

But, I can report anecdotally that when I change my cleaner bypass valve from 100% open to anywhere below that, I get ZERO pressure increase in my Caretaker valve. When I get to about 90% open on the bypass, the pressure in the Caretaker starts to drop. So, while the pump may work harder, or there may be more flow, it does not result in more pressure in my cleaner, which is what I am trying to achieve for proper cleaning (max throw from pop-ups.)

Sorry, I don't understand this experiment probably because I have no pressure valve on my cleaning system and I don't have a bypass either. The data I have definitely shows a pressure decrease (at the filter) when I slightly open the pool wall returns in parallel to the cleaning system...I would expect a corresponding pressure decrease to show up in my cleaning system distribution "dome" as well. The question is, has it dropped below the max throw point, etc that you are concerned about for my popups. I don't believe it has but your next question could provide an answer.

I may have missed this, but did you read an in-floor valve pressure for each datapoint?

I didn't know this existed...do they sell pressure gauges for doing this (I have A&A type 1 popups). Would love to try this because it would be "real" data rather than my "feel" haha.

Another question I have is about faster filtering or getting more water through the filter in a given amount of time. I may be misunderstanding what you mean. There are many threads on here where the experts and mods debunk the idea of having to turn over a certain amount of water. So what is the advantage of faster filtering?

Currently I run my cleaning system for about 3 hours a day (I must add that this is already overkill...90% of the time because there is usually not much debris in my pool). When there is debris, it doesn't take that long to "kick up" the debris...it takes that long because the debris "kicked up" has to be filtered out of the water. When we have an AZ monsoon...3 hours isn't nearly enough to filter all the debris "kicked up" (especially at my old 40gpm filtering ability). Doubling the filter capacity while cleaning will make cleaning my pool much faster. Also, in general, the goal is to reduce the "cleaning time" (high rpm run time) because it costs more than "filtering time" (low rpm run time). I am sure the valve change will allow me to do this.

Where would I look up those pressure gauges...if they are not too expensive I might get one. But would I need multiple meters to put on all of a particular zone's pop-ups simultaneously? Thanks.

 

[Dodger]

Re: FlowVis for In-floor Cleaning System Tuning

Sorry if I mislead you. The pressure gauge is not connected to the pop-ups, it's on the water control valve. For example, the gauge on top of the valve in this picture.

Paramount 6 Port Water Valve - 004-302-4184-03

I don't know that it is retrofittable for your valve assembly. If yours doesn't have one, I didn't know there were control valves out there without pressure gauges.


Edit: Just looked at your build thread and saw your equipment pad. Sure enough, I see no pressure gauge on the floor valve!