Is all Diatomaceous Earth meant for pool use the same?

[plnewb]

I am helping out my aunt with maintenance of her pool that uses a Pac Fab Nautilus FNS DE filter. I have questions about replacing the grid but before I get there:

Is all Diatomaceous Earth meant for pool use the same?

I have been using this specific DE for my own pool but my late uncle, who was very specific about pool care used to order a special brand that they don't ship to California, so he used to go to Arizona to buy his DE (and ammo).

The one I personally use is this DE:

Celatom Diatomaceous Earth DE Pool Filter Aid – Swimming Pool & Spa Filtration 50lb - Walmart.com

Arrives by Sat, Aug 19 Buy Celatom Diatomaceous Earth DE Pool Filter Aid – Swimming Pool & Spa Filtration 50lb at Walmart.com

www.walmart.com

Can I just use this instead of the other DE that has to be sourced a bit more inconveniently?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

As long as it is NOT “food grade” DE and it is clearly marked for pool use, then yes, there is very little difference between brands. Some brands will intentionally add moisture to the bag to reduce dust formation but that’s about it.

Celatom is a very widely used DE brand.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

CelaPool is their low dust brand sold in thermally sealed plastic bags. I’ve used it a lot and it works great.

 

[plnewb]

Celatom is a very widely used DE brand.

Right but my uncle, who taught me pool maintenance and is extremely frugal person, used to swear by Robelle 4024. It literally costs 4x of the Celatom and is very popular so I am wondering if I am missing something.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Right but my uncle, who taught me pool maintenance and is extremely frugal person, used to swear by Robelle 4024. It literally costs 4x of the Celatom and is very popular so I am wondering if I am missing something.

Almost all of the DE supplied to the consumer markets comes from a few mines around the world. Germany used to have very extensive deposits of DE. These companies don’t make the DE, they all purchase it on the minerals commodities markets. It’s literally bought by the tonnage. So aside from extra processing that is done to make the DE food grade or low dust, there’s very little difference in DE.

No offense to your uncle, but I think he simply just exercised his preference under the belief that if it cost more then it must be better. I have used many different brands of DE in my filter and there was literally no discernible difference in performance that I ever noticed.

It your families pool and you can do whatever you like, but the only difference you’ll see is how much lighter your wallet feels.

 

[plnewb]

No offense taken, my only concern was something going wrong - that I didn't suddenly want to use a different product and have something go wrong and have my aunt feel like I was ignoring her late husband's deep handson experience.

I have a question about rinsing the DE grids in dishwashing soap in an attempt to clean it - should I create a new thread or ask here?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

No offense taken, my only concern was something going wrong - that I didn't suddenly want to use a different product and have something go wrong and have my aunt feel like I was ignoring her late husband's deep handson experience.

I have a question about rinsing the DE grids in dishwashing soap in an attempt to clean it - should I create a new thread or ask here?

You can keep it here.

Dishwashing soap (the liquid kind you put on a sponge) is generally a bad idea to use around pools. It’s designed to foam. If you need to clean grids, you want to soak them in a mixture of water and TSP (trisodium phosphate) OR, if TSP is unavailable, use something like Cascade automatic dishwasher powder. Let them soak for a few hours or overnight then rinse them off real good.

 

[plnewb]

Cascade automatic dishwasher powder

I can buy this during my weekly trip to WM but the wife uses Cascade pods - are those compatible with the powder?

Also how much Cascade automatic dishwasher powder should I mix before spraying it on with a spray or does it not matter?

you want to soak them in a mixture of water and TSP (trisodium phosphate)

On the specific topic of TSP, I see these are available:

a. Sunnyside 6 lb. TSP Heavy Duty Cleaner in 1 lb. Resalable Pouches 64216C - The Home Depot

b. SAVOGRAN 1 qt. Liquid TSP Substitute Cleaner 10632 - The Home Depot

b is already at my store while a will need to be ordered. Are both the same for my usecase?

If the Cascade automatic dishwasher powder is equally effective though, I would rather use the Cascade automatic dishwasher powder

 

[mknauss]

DE Filter Use and Care - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JoyfulNoise]

DO NOT USE PODS!

Old school cascade powder like the kind my old Italian granny would add to the wash basin down by the East River …

You don’t want to spray it on. You want to SOAK the grids which means taking apart the grid assembly and individually rinsing and then soaking the panels. Many people either buy a big wash basin (like a water tub for horses) or a 50 gallon plastic trash can and soak the grids in that. Spraying on the liquid and letting it sit will just make a bigger mess.

 

[JamesW]

99.999% of the time, the grids just need to be hosed off and put back in the filter.

All of this washing and soaking in various chemicals is mostly a waste of time and money.

 

[JamesW]

Robelle 4024

Robelle does not really make anything.

They just buy the chemicals in bulk and put them in packages with their name on the package.

 

[JamesW]

Here is the process that people waste their time on when it is usually unnecessary.

1) Rinse off grids.

2) Soak in giant vat of TSP.

3) Try to figure out what to do with 50 gallons of TSP mix.

4) Soak in giant vat of Filter cleaner.

5) Try to figure out what to do with 50 gallons of filter cleaner mix.

6) Soak in giant vat of Acid.

7) Try to figure out what to do with 50 gallons of acid mix.

In my opinion, “Deep-Cleaning” a sand filter is also almost always a waste of time as well.

If deep cleaning helps, then that indicates that the backwash is not working.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If deep cleaning helps, then that indicates that the backwash is not working.

Which is why I only take apart and clean my DE filter once per year - backwashing is ineffective.

There are ways to not have to mix up a 50 gallon drum of chemicals. I have used a trash can with a large 40 gallon thick black plastic trash bag (contractor grade) where I put the cartridges in, add the detergent powder and then start filling with a hose. If you gather up the top of the bag and hold it while filling to reduce the free space volume, you maybe only add about 10-15 gallons of water. Then you just tie off the top and give the trash can a good "sloshing around" and then let it sit for a few hour. I take out the cartridges and rinse them. They are noticeably cleaner. As for the waste water, it's mostly harmless and I just release it in the back corner of the lot ... the ground squirrels appreciate the water for washing themselves off with as digging miles of dirt tunnels under the yard is dusty work ...

I would never do the above process with acid as that is too dangerous and, honestly, it is definitely a waste of time. Even with my high CH water, I have never had calcium scale on the grids. You have to be doing something seriously wrong with your pool water chemistry to "lime up" grids ...

 

[plnewb]

1. Is TSP more effective than Cascade automatic dishwasher powder?
2. Are we just trying to degrease the grids using TSP? I also have a lye based degreaser and both the fabric and grids look to be plastic so shoudn't be affected by lye - I do notice some gaskets and don't know how gaskets react to lye

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Don’t use lye. That could potentially damage the materials.

The point of any of these cleaning procedures is to remove oil and organic matter that may be embedded into the material supporting the DE. As @JamesW alluded to, if you can simply hide them off and they are clean, then degreasing is likely unnecessary. The only time to consider using a degreaser is if you know that you had some kind of chemical exposure that caused the filter pressure to go higher than normal.

Just clean the unit and get it back into service. Make note of the clean pressure and check it every once in a while to see if it increases. You only need to clean a DE filter if you get a pressure increase 25% above the clean pressure.

 

[JamesW]

The DE should catch most debris and the fabric should almost never have anything that needs to be chemically cleaned.

 

[plnewb]

I follow. While both tri-sodium-phosphate and lye are effective for de-greasing, here at TFP we are concerned about the negative impacts of lye and hence, left with TSP

On the specific topic of TSP, I see these are available:

a. Sunnyside 6 lb. TSP Heavy Duty Cleaner in 1 lb. Resalable Pouches 64216C - The Home Depot

b. SAVOGRAN 1 qt. Liquid TSP Substitute Cleaner 10632 - The Home Depot

b is already at my store while a will need to be ordered. Are both the same for my usecase?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

NEVER use “TSP substitute” as it is not TSP but usually sodium carbonate with surfactants.

TSP is an alkaline phosphate based cleaner. Phosphates work incredible well at cleaning not only oils and greases but also keeping metals in suspension to stop staining. The EPA, in the 70’s, targeted for elimination the use of phosphates in retail products on the scientifically unsupported idea that retail/consumer products were the cause of eutrophication of waterways. They are a minute drop in the bucket compared to phosphate laden farm waste and runoff. But, you can guess which lobby won …

So phosphate cleaners are all but extinct as it was mostly replaced by carbonate. You can still find real TSP powder but you have to carefully inspect the ingredients.

 

[JamesW]

NEVER use “TSP substitute”

Cheerios used to contain trisodium phosphate but they substituted tripotassium phosphate for the trisodium phosphate, so I agree that you should not use a substitute like Cheerios did.

I miss the old formula.