If i add a dedicated pump for the solar heater, where does it does it go?

[jennmartinez1]

Hi! I have a question about using a dedicated pump for a solar heater on my intex ultra frame 18x52 round pool. I have the saltwater system too. I know it has to be last in line to the pool.
Main pump, filter, solar heater, salt system, pool. But I can't find any info on where the extra pump fits in.
Also, would it be better to use the existing pump and buy the small intex pump with paper filter for solar heater only OR buy a new pump for the main and use my existing pump for the solar heater?
Thanks in advance!

 

[mas985]

Welcome to the forum!

Normally, a second pump is not needed for solar unless it is on a completely isolated loop (i.e. separate suction and returns).

Why do you think you need a second pump?

Are the panels on the ground or elevated?

 

[jennmartinez1]

Welcome to the forum!

Normally, a second pump is not needed for solar unless it is on a completely isolated loop (i.e. separate suction and returns).

Why do you think you need a second pump?

Are the panels on the ground or elevated?

@mas985 The panel would be on the ground about 20 feet away from the rest of the system. The only reason I was thinking about the extra pump is that I wasn't sure the intex would be strong enough with the solar heater in the mix. I have done some additional reading and it sounds like it would be fine since I am not going vertical at all. The only other reason would be to have the solar system be a stand-alone setup separate from the other equipment. That way I could just turn the separate pump on whenever I want to run the heater and just have it pull from the pool directly (via hose or something) to the pump to the solar setup and then directly back into the pool (via hose or something).
I have had the pool for 4 seasons now and I LOVE it, I am just new to all the heater stuff.
I am trying to research and make sure that I am doing the right thing to actually get additional heat that will extend my season. I would love to be able to open beginning of May and not close until sometime in October. In June, July and Aug it is a non-issue, pool stays around 85-89 degrees. I have full sun all day and part of the evening, but I am in Michigan, so today for example, outside temp was 86 degrees and the pool water was about 72 degrees. I do have a clear solar cover that I keep on the pool whenever I am not in it. Another option I have been reading about is doing an outdoor tankless water heater that some are running successfully with propane tanks, which is inexpensive up front, but the cost of the propane here is about $20 to fill a 20 lb tank. I am not sure how often I would have to refill, but I would think to get the temp up 10 degrees or so, it would burn thru them pretty quick.Another option I have been reading about is doing an outdoor tankless water heater that some are running successfully with propane tanks, which is inexpensive up front, but the cost of the propane here is about $20 to fill a 20 lb tank. I am not sure how often I would have to refill, but I would think to get the temp up 10 degrees or so, it would burn thru them pretty quick.

Option 1: Fafco Super Solar Bear heater system,$350 for the system and installation kit, 40 ft of hose (not sure on that cost), and maybe $50 to have someone do the plumbing for the valves.

Option 2: Tankless Water Heater, they seem to be around $200, then would need to figure out hoses back and forth and a separate pump of some kind (maybe submersible would work), plus expense of filling the propane tanks however often that would be. I will use 2x week at $20=$40 per week (but again that is only going to be for maybe a total of 2-3 weeks on either side of the season that I will need to use it, so maybe that wouldn't be so bad.

Do you or anyone else have advice on what the best bet would be and have experience with either of the above options?
Thanks in advance!

 

[Woodstock1234]

I believe I have the same Intex sand filter and pump that you do. I have a solar panel and it's right next to the pool. The Intex pump is barely enough power to work. It works, but in the future I would probably get a stronger pump if I keep the panel. This year, I hooked it up just to see how much heat I would get. I am in IL and I can say solar heat is not enough to extend the season. When the nights start getting chilly, the pool can't sustain enough heat even with the solar cover. I think I got an extra 5 to 8 degrees or so from the panel. I actually close in November but I am definitely not swimming in it after September.

 

[mas985]

The panel would be on the ground about 20 feet away from the rest of the system. The only reason I was thinking about the extra pump is that I wasn't sure the intex would be strong enough with the solar heater in the mix

The Intex should be able to pump water through the panels but it does depend on how the panels are plumbed, the number of panels, and the amount of water sent to the panels. One thing that is often a mistake is trying to force too much water through solar panels. They only need about 0.1 GPM/sq-ft of flow rate. Attempting to force too much water through the panels will cause excess head loss and low flow rates.

I am trying to research and make sure that I am doing the right thing to actually get additional heat that will extend my season.

That is going to be a problem with pool solar panels. The lower the air temperature gets, the lower the panel efficiency. When the air temp goes below the water temp, the panel efficiency falls off very quickly.

Option 1: Fafco Super Solar Bear heater system,$350 for the system and installation kit, 40 ft of hose (not sure on that cost), and maybe $50 to have someone do the plumbing for the valves.

That will probably help in current conditions but with air temps lower than about 80F, and shallow sun angles, it will be hard to maintain that in the fall.

Option 2: Tankless Water Heater, they seem to be around $200, then would need to figure out hoses back and forth and a separate pump of some kind (maybe submersible would work), plus expense of filling the propane tanks however often that would be. I will use 2x week at $20=$40 per week (but again that is only going to be for maybe a total of 2-3 weeks on either side of the season that I will need to use it, so maybe that wouldn't be so bad.

Where can you get a tankless water heater for $200?

Anyway, they are meant for low flow rates and high temps where as a pool heater should provide just the opposite for high efficiency. I would look into a standard pool heater for better performance.

 

[jennmartinez1]

@mas985 Thanks for the advice! I've been doing more research. I like what I read about electric heaters. Buying the unit and installing is expensive up front but cheaper to actually run it.

 

[jennmartinez1]

I believe I have the same Intex sand filter and pump that you do. I have a solar panel and it's right next to the pool. The Intex pump is barely enough power to work. It works, but in the future I would probably get a stronger pump if I keep the panel. This year, I hooked it up just to see how much heat I would get. I am in IL and I can say solar heat is not enough to extend the season. When the nights start getting chilly, the pool can't sustain enough heat even with the solar cover. I think I got an extra 5 to 8 degrees or so from the panel. I actually close in November but I am definitely not swimming in it after September.

@Woodstock1234 Thats exactly what I'm afraid of. I think it may be smarter to do the electric heater, still researching. My thought process is that I could spend $400-500 on solar heater and not be satisfied with results because I don't need help in the summer, just the solar blanket is enough. Or I could just apply that money to an electric.

 

[Woodstock1234]

@Woodstock1234 Thats exactly what I'm afraid of. I think it may be smarter to do the electric heater, still researching. My thought process is that I could spend $400-500 on solar heater and not be satisfied with results because I don't need help in the summer, just the solar blanket is enough. Or I could just apply that money to an electric.

Please post what you decide to do. I'm always toying with the idea of a heater but not sure I use the pool enough to warrant the extra cost.

 

[denwood]

An Intex pool pump will work but like Mas985 said, the pool pump model, number of panels and how they are plumbed is important.

You can plumb the solar panels in via a 3 way valve (so you can isolate the solar) but I found that to get to the ideal 4 GPM per 2'x20' solar panel, I needed to have four panels plumbed completely parallel. When I upgraded the system to 8 panels (from four), I tried a few different setups (including a more powerful 2 speed pump) but found the most efficient setup was actually running two of the Intex pumps plumbed in series.

I now have eight panels, and am using two Intex 2100 GPH pumps (they use about 2amps@120V each) plumbed in series to achieve 1800 GPH from the system. The panels are roof mounted with a max height of around 20 feet.

 

[phroggie]

I am currently using a two pump solution. When the pump that came with my previous Intex pool failed mid-season last year, I got a small Intex pump to limp through the season. The new Bestway pool has the two ports T-ed to the pump and a "heater" pad. My take was that with the two intakes and the restriction of the pad, the rail mounted skimmer (left over from the Intex pool) didn't have enough suction.

What I did was I connected the inlet of the new pump directly to one of the 1-1/4" ports (the one connected to the skimmer) and the outlet directly to the 1-1/2" return port on the pool. The other port I connected to that small Intex pump which then goes through the pad. Because of space considerations the pumps are sitting on a platform approximately at the level of the ports and the pad sits on a platform above them tilted to the sun. (Imagine how little suction there would be for the skimmer if the "main" pump had to also lift the water a few feet.)

This has several advantages: increased suction for the skimmer; lower electric consumption for the heater; slower flow through the heater and separate schedules for the two functions. Another neat thing is that while the new Bestway pump has one of those annoying GFIs that trip when they lose power making them totally unsuitable for use with a smart plug, the Intex can be used with one. While I still have to manually turn the pumps on (the Bestway with its switch, the Intex with my phone or desktop), I'm writing a program to cycle the heater pump since, optimally, the heating should work as well if it's intermittent.

This, the first year for the Bestway, I hurried planning and execution. For next year I'll rebuild the pump "house" so that

• the pad will be angled optimally
• use PVC piping as much as possible
• plumb the pad so there's a check valve and a vacuum breaker so that water stays in the pad when the pump is off
• have a proper program in place to intermittently cycle the heater (1 minute on, 9 off?).

WARNING: by eliminating the T on the pump inlet, I created a SAFETY HAZARD. In my case, I'm absolutely sure that it does not present a problem to the two or three people who might use the pool, even if the pump is running. Carefully consider your situation before you follow this.

 

[denwood]

I am currently using a two pump solution. When the pump that came with my previous Intex pool failed mid-season last year, I got a small Intex pump to limp through the season. The new Bestway pool has the two ports T-ed to the pump and a "heater" pad. My take was that with the two intakes and the restriction of the pad, the rail mounted skimmer (left over from the Intex pool) didn't have enough suction.

What I did was I connected the inlet of the new pump directly to one of the 1-1/4" ports (the one connected to the skimmer) and the outlet directly to the 1-1/2" return port on the pool. The other port I connected to that small Intex pump which then goes through the pad. Because of space considerations the pumps are sitting on a platform approximately at the level of the ports and the pad sits on a platform above them tilted to the sun. (Imagine how little suction there would be for the skimmer if the "main" pump had to also lift the water a few feet.)

This has several advantages: increased suction for the skimmer; lower electric consumption for the heater; slower flow through the heater and separate schedules for the two functions. Another neat thing is that while the new Bestway pump has one of those annoying GFIs that trip when they lose power making them totally unsuitable for use with a smart plug, the Intex can be used with one. While I still have to manually turn the pumps on (the Bestway with its switch, the Intex with my phone or desktop), I'm writing a program to cycle the heater pump since, optimally, the heating should work as well if it's intermittent.

This, the first year for the Bestway, I hurried planning and execution. For next year I'll rebuild the pump "house" so that

• the pad will be angled optimally
• use PVC piping as much as possible
• plumb the pad so there's a check valve and a vacuum breaker so that water stays in the pad when the pump is off
• have a proper program in place to intermittently cycle the heater (1 minute on, 9 off?).

WARNING: by eliminating the T on the pump inlet, I created a SAFETY HAZARD. In my case, I'm absolutely sure that it does not present a problem to the two or three people who might use the pool, even if the pump is running. Carefully consider your situation before you follow this.

Ideal flow for a solar collector like @mas985 suggested is .1 GPM/sq/ft. I've tested this with real time BTU measurements, and ya, any less and you will lose up to 25% efficiency from your setup. Cycling a solar pump is simply not done in the industry. If solar output water is hot, you're not running the system efficiently...and may in fact be adding very little heat to your pool when you calculate the actual BTU (or watts) input from your heater. This is why the DIY tube heaters look great on a youtube vid (look ma, 95 F water from my system!) but actually do very little to heat a pool. It's all about BTU input.

The OP has a 7000 US gallon pool. It takes about 60K BTU of heat output (so a heater running at 60K BTU for an hour) to raise that pool water temp by 1 F. @jennmartinez1 your Intex pool pump will move about 4GPM through 160 square feet of collector (panels to cover 8'x20' of area) and generate 40-50K BTU on a sunny day for about 5-6 hours, assuming it's in good sun. I'm assuming air temps of over 70 F. That's a rise of about 5 F from the panels alone. If the pool is in full sun, you'll see another 6-8 F temp rise just from the sun on the pool. On a 50 F night, you might loose 3-4 F from the pool which you'd have to make up the next day. If you have shade/cool temps for a day or two, the pool might lose 7-8 F, so a full day of sun would be needed to recover that loss.

Here are some numbers from my system that would help with your installer:

The panels must be plumbed for full parallel flow...so supply on one end and return at the other. Otherwise, restrictions will be too high for the Intex pump.

System performance specifications:

1. Pool Pump - Intex SF80110-1 , 0.2 amps , 1600 GPH.
2. Actual (measured) system flow with sand filter and 160 sq/ft solar array in use: 1028 GPH
3. Max measured BTU = 1028 x 8.33 x 6F = 51 379 BTU/hour
5. System head (max lift height to peak of roof) : 17ft

This is over 4 GPM per panel, and will see 50K BTU in full sun from 160 sq/ft of collector.

Because my setup is automated, I gather data from air temp at the pool, pool water temp, solar input/output temps and real time BTU numbers. After about 5 years of tweaking you learn a lot

This image (click image to go to the real time data feed) gives you an idea of system performance at 1pm in full sun, air temps 77 F. The pool water had cooled a bit after 2-3 days of shade/rain/cool weather.