Pool remodel... Add spa, plumbing, automation

[john71chevelle]

Hello! Thanks for a tremendous resource. Slowly but surely starting our pool/backyard. Currently have a old pool with 12+ years on plaster with nice brown tiles. While we plan on new equipment and options I want to find what we have in the ground now with a shovel. I'll be doing most of the work with plumbing. Personally I love the KISS method but at the same time the engineer in me wants to pre-plumb maybe a dedicated spa line etc.
The long plan is adding a overflow spa, ledge, heatpump, bubbler, deck jet gadget coming from bar (undecided). I'd really like to get the piping diagram figured out at this point to see what we have.
Currently leaning Omni PL salt package, heat pro, clean & clear 425sqft, heater bypass?, spa makeup etc

Current pad we did a pump swap a couple years ago.
The pictures of the pipes show 4 pipes underneath the irrigation going towards my skimmer, return and pressure cleaner (not in use) So I can see 3 but there are 4 pipes? Only getting one return to the pad.

Another pic I have 2 pipes heading towards my return across the pool. I assumed one was the return and the other the main drain. Is there a general way "this is how they did it in 79'" ?

quick sketches of our reno
Thanks for looking it over

 

[Newdude]

Is there a general way "this is how they did it in 79'" ?

Yup. They did it drunk. And all bets are off.

Nice job ditching the hot tub filter for a real one. FL builders love teeny filters for some reason. Your yard has plenty of debris from all the greenery, yet, hot tub filter.

And Welcome to TFP !!!

 

[john71chevelle]

Yes picked up a used c4030 from a swap out. Figured I can atleast try it. The guy just had it done with new pressure garage and new unions too. Seems like a win so far. It’ll be a combo for P&S for now.

Lots of debris thats one reason I want a spa make up even though I would have automation. But don’t know enough yet

I’d like to be able to run the bubbler/gimmick deck jets from either setting.
Could they tee’d off and j valves (manual) before the return 3 way JVA?

Coffee is trying to kick in…..

 

[john71chevelle]

Well found the Tee (for the return I assume) and the elbow (main drain headed to skimmer). Makes sense to me but only had sweet tea.
I know you like pics.
Idea is to cut and run 2” from here/skimmer to the new equipment.

 

[john71chevelle]

I think I have checked off the discovery portion of this.
Quick run down... will be doing full equipment replacement with OmniPl, Pump (Tristar), Filter (C4030), Heatpump Heat/Chill (Hayward/Aquacomfort), Salt (Tcell). We are adding a spillover spa and sun ledge.
Before I dig up for the pad could anyone give me some pointers on my plumbing sketch ups. I do love the keep it simple method but I'm also 6 tabs deep on a pool forum "browsing" so I do have that problem of over designing.
I've read Spa Make is unnecessary with automation. With the amount of leaves we get is a make-up useful rather than adjusting the cams on the valves or running spillover mode a couple times.

*Should I plumb the suction side independent Skimmer, Main drain, Cleaner (great white) Currently they are combined at the skimmer. (skimmer is also to be replaced) So I have options.
*Running bubbler & deck jets. I've seen here plumbed to the pool side return. Is there a way I haven't seen to plumb it so I could run the bubbler/deck jets on spa mode? Attached pic diagram
*Should I add a dedicated drain and return to the new spa? If not for immediate use, for future?
*Obvious things I missed?

Appreciate it

 

[john71chevelle]

What you think @Newdude ? Keep it here or asking in plumbing?

 

[Newdude]

Keep anything even remotely relevant to the redo here for continuity. We need all the puzzle pieces and won't necessarily see them if they're spread all over the place. Sorry this fell through the cracks the other day. Sometimes the folks you need are away for a bit and by the time they get back the posts are buried already. Bump your own post if it's gone unanswered after a reasonable time.

Should I plumb the suction side independent Skimmer, Main drain, Cleaner (great white) Currently they are combined at the skimmer

We always recommend seperate legs with individual diverter valves at the pad so a faulty leg can be disabled without harming pool operation. Not everybody has the funds or bandwidth to rip up the patio (etc) that day, and it may need to wait.

Running bubbler & deck jets. I've seen here plumbed to the pool side return. Is there a way I haven't seen to plumb it so I could run the bubbler/deck jets on spa mode? Attached pic diagram
*Should I add a dedicated drain and return to the new spa? If not for immediate use, for future?
*Obvious things I missed?

Let's get @ajw22 @Jimrahbe @JamesW thoughts

 

[ajw22]

Let's discuss how you will plumb the spa.

Will you have an air line into each spa jet?

Will you be using venturi air or a spa blower?

What air/water manifold and spa jets will you use?

How will your plumbing ensure the air and water output are balanced between each jet?

How many spa jets will you have with what flow rate and pressure?

Details about this are in Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading, which I suggest you read.

I am a fan of two pump spa designs and an air blower. The pump and blower can overcome any deficiencies in the plumbing for a good spa experience.

This is how my spa is set up: one pump for the filter and heater and another dedicated to the jets…

 

[ajw22]

Is there a way I haven't seen to plumb it so I could run the bubbler/deck jets on spa mode?

Have a dedicated water feature pump.

*Should I add a dedicated drain and return to the new spa? If not for immediate use, for future?

Yes, for a two pump spa system as described above.

*Obvious things I missed?

Details of your spa plumbing.

I only see one skimmer. With all this work put two skimmers in. Two skimmers and three returns is my minimum for any pool.

Are the skimmers located into the prevailing winds?

 

[john71chevelle]

Keep anything even remotely relevant to the redo here for continuity. We need all the puzzle pieces and won't necessarily see them if they're spread all over the place. Sorry this fell through the cracks the other day. Sometimes the folks you need are away for a bit and by the time they get back the posts are buried already. Bump your own post if it's gone unanswered after a reasonable time.


We always recommend seperate legs with individual diverter valves at the pad so a faulty leg can be disabled without harming pool operation. Not everybody has the funds or bandwidth to rip up the patio (etc) that day, and it may need to wait.

Let's get @ajw22 @Jimrahbe @JamesW thoughts

Ok I thought I had seen a few posts telling them to try to keep all the info in one thread.
I certainly appreciate the ability to isolate different equipment and piping, lets go with that philosophy for this. Thanks for bringing this to the top and bringing in backup

 

[john71chevelle]

Let's discuss how you will plumb the spa.

This missing info but lets discuss. Ideally I'd prefer to run it just like your example. Cost being a factor, I would like to be able to utilize my current pump (WhisperFlo vst, 3-4 years old) if possible. We did plan on purchasing a new Tristar to run the entire system to keep the OmniPL happy. Would the OmniPL being able to run the 2 pump system?

Will you have an air line into each spa jet?

Yes, in my single pump application. Heat/jet/air coming returning back to spa. Unless 2 pumps then just going to jets and heat thru dedicated return as your diagram/spa.

Will you be using venturi air or a spa blower?

Yes sir, plan is to use a 2HP silencer or similar.

What air/water manifold and spa jets will you use?

One of the available 2'' gunite double venturi tees is what I was planning on. At first I was thinking the Waterway nozzles etc but it seems more complicated than our spa needs would be. Suggestion?

How will your plumbing ensure the air and water output are balanced between each jet?

Looping the water/air lines in the shell to Hardford loop to blower

How many spa jets will you have with what flow rate and pressure?

6-8 jets is what I'm thinking. I have not done enough pen to paper regarding the flow rates. This is where I initially just figured 3''pipe to the spa and the itll be what itll be. I will read up on that in the further reading. 65-90 gpm to the jets?

Details about this are in Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading, which I suggest you read.

I am a fan of two pump spa designs and an air blower. The pump and blower can overcome any deficiencies in the plumbing for a good spa experience.

I like this as well. Do you know if the OmniPL handle that?
Would you consider even just using one pump for an application like mine?

This is how my spa is set up: one pump for the filter and heater and another dedicated to the jets…

Appreciate the help. I will keep pushing forward but price increases coming so I'd like to get my platform before the 20th.

 

[ajw22]

Why are you focused on a Hayward OmniPL system?

Yes, an OmniPL can control a 2 pump spa system. But I think you may find an OmniPL limited for the number of relays or actuators you want by the end of your design. And find the way Hayward does Configuration limiting depending on decisions on your water features.

 

[john71chevelle]

What system would you recommend?
I guess I'm focused because I was trying to choose between the different manufacturers and after going back and forth basically pick one to get started. Hayward system seems nice, user friendly and a lot support online.

Im ok with the water feature jets being on manual diverter. If I even install any deck jets. The bubbler would be nice to turn on with an actuator.
Is there a significant advantage of say an intellicenter or aqualink instead over the Omni salt kit? Ips5 kit or RS/6. Are 4 HV relays going to be a limiting factor for me or are you thinking other factors as well that Im not seeing?
Is the answer to move platforms? Looks like pricing is similar on those.
Thank you for your help

 

[ajw22]

What system would you recommend?

The IntelliCenter is the most flexible and expandable. However its flexibility gives it quirks and bugs when folks try to use it in ways Pentair designers did not imagine or test.

Hayward is okay as long as you can work within their hardcoded Configuration. There is no way top do things their Configuration is not programmed to do. And expandability is limited.

Jandy Aqualink is the least flexible system although Jandy has tried to make some improvements with the Yg firmware.

I guess I'm focused because I was trying to choose between the different manufacturers and after going back and forth basically pick one to get started. Hayward system seems nice, user friendly and a lot support online.

Before you lock in your equipment pad design you need to go through how it will all connect to and be setup in the automation the way you want. Otherwise you can build it all and when you go to connect it to automation you may find it will not do what you expected.

Yeah, that adds another level of complexity and learning cureve to your DIY project but that is the price of being a one man band.

Im ok with the water feature jets being on manual diverter. If I even install any deck jets. The bubbler would be nice to turn on with an actuator.

Decide what are the must haves versus the nice to haves.

Is there a significant advantage of say an intellicenter or aqualink instead over the Omni salt kit? Ips5 kit or RS/6.

See above.

Are 4 HV relays going to be a limiting factor for me or are you thinking other factors as well that Im not seeing?

Spec out what devices will need to be connected to HV relays or actuators.

Is the answer to move platforms? Looks like pricing is similar on those.

Price should be low on the decision tree.