How long should a filter & self-cleaning system program run?

[rock]

I've just finished replacing badly leaking pipes and it's time to start the pool back on an automatic filtering & cleaning cycle.

I don't have the experience for the algorithm to set up a typical filtering & cleaning schedule.

Almost arbitrarily, I have set the pool filter to turn on at 10am and last for four hours; while I've programmed the self-cleaning system (which is really just a glorified under-water gun) to start a half hour later and last for 3 hours.

My question for those who understand the mechanics of a supposedly self-cleaning pool system, is what is the basic standard algorithm for how to set the difference in filtering and cleaning times?

NOTE: For those who don't have a self-cleaning system, the two skimmers are NOT filtered! They simply feed the dozen (or so) popups on the bottom of the pool which shoot out water (like a water gun) at various angles on the floor of the pool. The pool itself has a deep end where all the debris is supposed to collect, which is designed to be extremely steep, so the debris can't get back out - and where the main filter at the bottom of the deep end than sucks the collected debris into the filtration system.

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/133 ... 393557.jpg

 

[jblizzle]

Re: How long should a filter & self-cleaning system program

Hmmm ... sounds like you setup is different than I had at my last house. All the water was filtered and that is the water that supplied the floor jets. I had 4 or 5 zones with 3-4 jets each. Everytime the the zone switched the lowering jet would slightly rotate. I was told that you should run the setup long enough so that the jets made a full revolution every day ... whether or not that was right ... who knows.

But, all that time my water was filtered, so it may not make sense for you. Honestly, your setup sounds pretty inefficient. The point of the jets is to keep the debris suspended so it will be filtered out, but you are saying that it is not filtered when the jets are running .... I am not sure what to suggest.

 

[rock]

Re: How long should a filter & self-cleaning system program

Everytime the the zone switched the lowering jet would slightly rotate.

Yes. I believe the jets rotate 1/16 of a turn (360°/16=22.5°) each time they lower.

run the setup long enough so that the jets made a full revolution every day

Hmmm... interesting. That would be 16 cycles. I'll have to time a cycle to see how long that would take and report back.

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/134 ... 402032.jpg

my water was filtered, so it may not make sense for you.

Interesting. Did you have two pumps feeding the filter then? Or did your cleaner system have a separate filter?

The point of the jets is to keep the debris suspended so it will be filtered out, but you are saying that it is not filtered when the jets are running

I don't disagree that it's not efficient. It was meant to be easy - but I don't think efficiency was part of the equation.
I called Paramount Pools in Tempe AZ at 602-315-5646 who explained that the filter must always be running for the cleaner system to actually do any cleaning.
The cleaner system simply sweeps all the debris to the purposefully very steep deep end, where the filter system picks it up.

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/134 ... 402073.jpg

 

[jblizzle]

Re: How long should a filter & self-cleaning system program

I had a single pump. Floor drains plumbed to the skimmer and from the skimmer to the pump. Out of the pump through the DE filter, then solar, gas heater, SWG, and then valves where the water was returned to the floor system or separate wall returns (so I could run it as a traditional pool as desired). I also had a spa and one of the zones was in the spa that then overflowed into the pool.

It worked pretty well, Some dirt would tend to settle in a couple corners and the spa. I would either just brush the dirt toward the drain or vacuum. I would also turn the spa on to suck all the dirt out of it.

I did not have a "debris containment system" I just always had some suction from the floor and the skimmers and all the water was filtered.

 

[rock]

Re: How long should a filter & self-cleaning system program

I had a single pump

Ah, that may make a difference.

For the system I have, (PCC2000), it's apparently rare to have a single pump:
http://kurtatparamount.com/technical-forum/

Of the three pumps shown below, the middle pump is dedicated to the filter floor and wall safety drains (which are not connected to the skimmer); and the left-most pump is dedicated to the skimmers and popups (which are not connected to the filter).
Note: The third pump is for the spa jets.

http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/133 ... 335710.jpg

 

[azmarkm1]

Re: How long should a filter & self-cleaning system program

If it were me I'd run the cleaner for a couple of hours. Start the filter pump at the same time, to make sure it's getting anything knocked down to the drain. Let the filter pump run for a few more hours after the cleaning cycle to help clean up anything that is still left in suspension.

 

[rock]

Re: How long should a filter & self-cleaning system program

If it were me I'd run the cleaner for a couple of hours

I like the logic of filter+cleaner, and then just filter. Thanks.

Seems to me there should be an algorithm for this - and not just left to whim and fancy though.
Googling for Paramount PCC2000, I find:
1. YouTube Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoHlXfgAX7Y
http://www.youtube.com/user/ParamountHowTo
2. PCC2000 Owners Manual:
http://www.1paramount.com/products/aapd ... Manual.pdf
3. Water Valve Owners Manual:
http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/pr ... _Valve.pdf
4. Paramount Technical Forum:
http://kurtatparamount.com/technical-forum
5. Paramount FAQ (more marketing than helpful):
http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/faq/pcc.php
6. PCC2000 Description:
http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/pcc/
7. Water Valve Description:
http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/valve/

Apparently it takes 18 cycles for my 3" PCC2000 nozzles to rotate 360 degrees; but the question is how many rotations are needed and how much time does it take to rotate 16 times.
EDIT: I removed a pop up head and counted 18 cycles for a complete 360 degrees rotation.

On page 22 of the owners manual, I find only empirical hints about how to set up the cleaning time:

The systems cleaning cycle is determined by many factors (landscape, temperature, weather and condition of pool equipment). To determine your cleaning cycle, run the pool until it is clean. In extreme conditions, an extended cycle will be necessary.

Hmmmmm... I guess it's left up to trial and error.

 

[rock]

Re: How long should a filter & self-cleaning system program

Hmmm ... sounds like you setup is different than I had at my last house. All the water was filtered

After reading the Paramount PC2000 owners manual (posted in the last post), I see there are two ways for the pool to be set up:
1. One pump runs all (filter + cleaner pop ups)
2. One pump runs the filter & one pump runs the cleaner pop ups (they call this a 'booster pump').

Mine is the booster pump style, which has a separate pump just for the cleaner system.
Yours apparently was the single-pump kind.

I don't know if the timing would be different though - as I have no experience with these systems.

In the alt.home.repair USENET newsgroup is perhaps the best description on the net of how the two-pump system works:

I talked to Chris in technical support for Paramount Pools in Tempe AZ at 602-315-5646, who explained how the filtering/cleaning system works:
He said:
- Infloors clean from the main drain.
- The cleaner pump must work at the same time as the filter pump (otherwise the dirt will just spin around).
- You can run the filter pump without the cleaner pump - but you won't get any cleaning of debris - you'll just get filtering.
- The four fixed heads on the wall at the deep end are on the filter pump and run continuously.
- Likewise, the two fixed (non-spinning) popups at the deep end are on the filter pump and run continuously.
- The two skimmers each have two ports on the bottom, one of which is connected to the cleaning system in each skimmer (which is not filtered).
- Often, one of the skimmers (the one furthest from the debris canister near the deep end) has the other bottom port blocked off.
- Often the other skimmer near the debris canister at the deep end has the second bottom port also connected to the filter system.
- You want that skimmer turned down (40%) so that most (60%) of the suction is through the main drain.
- If you have both valves open all the way, the skimmer will pull 85% and the main drain 15% which will not be efficient.
- The hole to the side of the debris canister is just an equalizer to allow water to cover the lid to seal it (since it uses no o-rings).
- The two drains on the wall are safety drains.

To test how the skimmers are plumbed:
Turn off filter pump & turn cleaner pump on --> one port in each skimmer should be pulling
Turn off cleaner pump & turn filter pump on --> only one skimmer port should be pulling

Terminology:
- The 3" heads are in the pool: They have to go in the same body - but they do not have to be in the same rotation position (they rotate 18 times to a circle).
- Modules and water valves are on top of the pool, and they 'must' go back the way they came (they're each different).
- There are two different modules - 4 port has tubes connecting 3 of the pistons on top - so they have to go back in EXACTLY the same way!
- Of those three connected ports, the center one is the tube that feeds the second module (the other two are blocked off).
- You have to insert the heads exactly so that the center of those three is always on the one unblocked tube surrounded by blocked tubes.
- The first module has, in effect, 4 ports, and the second module has 6 ports and it's called a 9-port system.

One test of the water valves is to look at the operating pressure on the gages on top of each water valve:
- The most common failure mode is a stuck piston in the water valve which will cause the heads in the pool to stay in the popped-up position.
- Each of the two water valves on the pool deck has a psi gauge attached.
- The first valve feeds the second valve 1/2 the time so the second valve will have zero pressure 50% of the time.
- The first one should be at 22 psi to 25 psi (in the green zone).
- The second one should be at about 19 psi to 20 psi (and at 0psi 1/2 the time).
- The heads last 5 years. You open the lid and buy new innards.
- The run/pause switch on top will lock it on one set of modules (i.e., it will put it on pause - but it's not very useful).

As for the mechanics of the debris canister, he said:
- The debris canister has five ports
1. One of the two large horizontal ports (closest to the pool) is plugged off.
2. The other ;large horizontal port (furthest from the pool) goes to the filter pump
3. The one small horizontal port goes directly to the pool and is simply a pipe to allow water to equalize pressure to seal the debris canister lid (which doesn't use o-rings)
4. One of the two large horizonal ports aims toward the skimmer but is actually plugged off.
5. The second of the two large horizontal ports aims away from the skimmer and is the water coming from the main drain.
Optionally, the plugged horizontal port, if it's not plugged could go to the a) skimmer, or b) it could go to a vacuum line.

He said the vacuum procedure, if you want to do it, is:
a) Turn filter pump off (critical step!)
b) Remove the lid of the debris canister.
c) Remove the blue basket of the debris canister
d) Fill a vacuum hose with water (to prime it)
e) Hook the vacuum hose to the vertical port furthest from the pool in the debris canister (this is the suction port)
f) Turn on the filter pump
g) You should be able to vacuum (as long as you don't lose prime in the process of running back and forth)
If you remove the debris canister lid without shutting the filter pump, water will suck down into the bottom and it will suck air & the pump may lose its prime.

 

[rock]

Re: How long should a filter & self-cleaning system program

Has anyone ever REBUILT their PCC2000 water valve innards?

My 9-port system seem to be clean and working - but the pistons seem to be sticking - such that the water pressure is in the red zone (at about 8 psi for both water valves, steady).

Also, does anyone know what this thing is supposed to do?

Is it missing an internal part?