Hot Tub pump questions - where do I post them?

[QuiltinMom]

I know this is primarily a pool forum, but you all are always so helpful and friendly. Not sure where to post my question regarding my hot tub pumps and hardware type stuff. Please move it if need be.

We had an above ground pool (still showing in my signature). We have sold it and will be getting rid of it this weekend.

We have picked up a free SunDance Optima hot tub and have been working towards getting it set up and running. The previous owner told us it had been throwing a FLO code and he didn't want to deal with it, so we knew we had some work to do. We have poured a cement slab. We have installed the necessary electric hook up and breakers. We have placed the tub and started filling it up. We discovered a leak coming from one of the big pumps (assuming a jet pump). When hubby took it off we realized the shaft that goes from the dry end to the wet end was severely corroded and it broke off. We purchased a new Waterway pump and installed it. We proceeded with filling it again. We got it full and the heater came on and started working fine. The jets would all come on and the little bubble jets also worked.

We noticed right away the circulation pump would get extremely hot. Like you couldn't touch it hot. I watched the pressure flow valve (it is in a clear tube) and I could see it activate when necessary and turn off when necessary. I put in some AHHSOME cleaner and ran the jets and everything for 20 minutes. Then it threw the FLO code error. I turned all of the jets off. Turned them back on and the FLO error continued to show. I did notice, however, that the flow valve was no longer activated like it should be when the water is moving. So, I was thinking that I needed to replace the flow valve. However, since the circulation pump was overheating so much I got to wondering if I should replace the circulation pump instead. So, I drove the hour to the SunDance dealer and purchased a circulation pump. Brought it home last night for hubby to install it and he is questioning the amperage/voltage/etc (that part is all beyond my knowledge).

It appears as though the circulation pump has been replace before (the hot tub is a 2002 model, the pump had a manufacture date of 7/2017). The pump that was on the tub is only two wires and the pump we purchased yesterday is 3 wires. I believe the new pump is correct, but now we need to figure out what they did with the 3rd wire.

I think we picked up someone else's hack job, but we can fix it with the right parts and knowledge. I guess my question is......how do I know if it is the circulation pump or the flow switch? We have taken the circulation pump off, but have not yet installed the new circ pump. I want to make sure we need the circ pump and install it correctly so we don't fry it.

Is there further info you need from me to help answer my questions?

THANKS so much!!!

 

[ajw22]

Post pics of the old pump, wiring, and new pump along with any data plates on the pumps.

 

[QuiltinMom]

First two photos are old pump.
Second two photos are new pump.

Old pump 115v with 2 wires (they cut the green ground wire off of the wires on the tub)

New pump is 230v with 3 wires, two wires and the ground. Hubby is thinking if it is 230v then it should have 3 wires, plus the ground.

Pool store is saying it doesnt need a neutral because all components are 220, there are not any 110 components.

Does that make sense?

I watched a you tube video or replacing the circ pump and it had just the 3 wires, so I think it is correct, but don't want to watch our hard earned money go up in smoke if the pool guy is wrong.

THANKS SO MUCH!!!

 

[ajw22]

First two photos are old pump.
Second two photos are new pump.

Old pump 115v with 2 wires (they cut the green ground wire off of the wires on the tub)

New pump is 230v with 3 wires, two wires and the ground. Hubby is thinking if it is 230v then it should have 3 wires, plus the ground.

Pool store is saying it doesnt need a neutral because all components are 220, there are not any 110 components.

Does that make sense?

I watched a you tube video or replacing the circ pump and it had just the 3 wires, so I think it is correct, but don't want to watch our hard earned money go up in smoke if the pool guy is wrong.

THANKS SO MUCH!!!

The Waterway pump is clearly marked 115V. You can't replace it with a 220V pump. We have no idea how someone hacked the circuits in your spa. You need to connect a multimeter to the pump wire, put it on AC Volts setting, and turn on the pump and see what voltage it reads. Probably 115V.

A 115V circuit has a hot wire (typically black), a neutral wire (white), and maybe a ground wire (green).

A 240V circuit has a two hot wires (typically black and red or white) and maybe a ground wire (green).

The number of wires cannot be used to determine the voltage.

The green wire cut off is a potential safety issue.

 

[Brussell]

PLEASE!!! Contact an electrician! The fact that the ground wire on the old pump was cut off suggests that the tub had a ground fault situation. The previous owner probably discovered that by removing the ground wire from the circuit they could get the tub's Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter to reset. This means that you have effectively thrown a plugged in toaster into your spa. If you touch wet concrete, grounded metal, or even if your GFCI just reaches the end of its life, you or a family member may reach the end of theirs as well. Test your GFCIs people!
The reason that your circulator pump is getting hot is that by applying 230 Volts to a 115 Volt motor you are pushing around 120 Watts through a coil of wire designed to safely carry 60 Watts. Continued use will severly shorten the life of the motor and the switching relay on the control board (which should have burned out a fuse immediately.) Call an electrician.

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP @Brussell

I had not thought someone would be dumb enough to put a 115V motor in a 220V circuit but you could well be correct.

I agree that hot tub is a safety hazard and should not be used until examined by a qualified electrician.

 

[wireform]

You can NOT hook up a 115v the same as a 230v I don't care what they say. At best they use one hot leg and the other wire goes to neutral or some Rear backwards wiring it to the ground. If you hook a 115v the same way as the 230v it will burn up right then and there. THAT IS ONE REAL "HOT" TUB YOU HAVE THERE. DANGER IS ITS NAME.

 

[QuiltinMom]

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!!!

We are aware that it is a safety hazzard. I just discovered this morning the green ground wire had been cut off and not used when they installed the red 115v pump. We will certainly have it inspected before proceeding.

The owner's manual for the hot tub calls for the 240v (I am pretty sure), so I don't know why it had a 115v on it. Seems to me like that is what would be causing it to get so stinking hot so fast. Is that correct?

We plan to put a meter on it and test everything.

If the owner's manual calls for the 240v and this is the pump the SunDance dealer says should be the replacement then it is correct, right? We will have to see why they didn't use the green ground wire, but I don't see on the red old motor where it had a green wire. Could this be why they eliminated it? Even though it was not safe? I don't know how long this 115v pump has been on this tub. He may have just done it and it didn't work then he decided to get rid of it. I really don't know, but I do know that it is not correct. Heck, even the water connections were not correct. On the red 115v motor they had to put some 1 1/2" (guessing on size) pvc connectors that scale down to the 3/4" flex hose that is on the hot tub. That should have been a clue right there for them.

So, is this what we have going on?

Pumps turn on and run fine, close the flow switch as required, circulation pump overheats, shuts off, throws a the FLO code and shuts down?

Heck, is the circulation pump supposed to come on with the jet pumps? I have so much to learn.

Again, thank you for having a look and offering help. We will certainly double check the grounding. Do hot tubs need to be bonded as well as grounded? (now I am talking way over my head).

 

[QuiltinMom]

You can NOT hook up a 115v the same as a 230v I don't care what they say. At best they use one hot leg and the other wire goes to neutral or some Rear backwards wiring it to the ground. If you hook a 115v the same way as the 230v it will burn up right then and there. THAT IS ONE REAL "HOT" TUB YOU HAVE THERE. DANGER IS ITS NAME.

So, how did they do it? They only brought two wires out of the box on the hot tub, cut off the green ground wire and had it just using two wires. I wish I understood this info more so that I could explain it better to you guys.

THANKS!!!

 

[wireform]

Two words: HACK JOB

 

[ajw22]

So, is this what we have going on?

Pumps turn on and run fine, close the flow switch as required, circulation pump overheats, shuts off, throws a the FLO code and shuts down?

The pump may have a thermal protection that shut it down. Running that 115V pump so hot caused the thermal shutdown that threw the FLO code. Root cause is the pump hack job.

 

[QuiltinMom]

Two words: HACK JOB

That is what I am thinking as well.

Here is the wiring diagram vs what they did. Look where my finger is pointing. The black is correct, the white is supposed to be going somewhere completely different.

Kind of scary and I don't completely understand it.

 

[ajw22]

Standard wiring is for the circulation pump to turn on when the heater is on. Looks like they bypassed that with the white wire.

 

[DangerBoy]

In North America, we get 230 Volts by running two 115 volt legs (Usually red and black) into the appliance with the legs 180 degrees out of phase. In Europe and other places in the they do it different. To get 115 V, you need to run one of the 115 legs with a neutral (usually white). If they cut the neutral to your circ pump, then your circ pump was being run at 230V which would explain why it was getting so hot. It's a testament to the quality of the pump that it didn't just burn up right away. It would also explain why previous ones failed after a short time. As those before me have advised, get an electrician to wire it correctly and you'll be good to go.

 

[QuiltinMom]

Update........we have been in contact with an electrician. We have installed the new pump and we have confidence that this is the correct one.

We refilled the tub last night and turned it on. No FLO error code. It heated up nicely and it up to temperature this morning. Everything seems to be functioning as needed.

Thank you all so much for your input. I am always grateful to have several pairs of eyes on an issue and have lots of wisdom shared to help us.

My last question is just that if the hot tub needs to be bonded or not. It is grounded through the panel as required, but I am confused about bonding. I don't know how it differs from grounding.

Again, thanks so much!!!

 

[ajw22]

Bonding vs Grounding

Electricity and water don't mix. Learn a few basic tips how to keep your family safe when dealing with electricity around your pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

Pool and Spa Wiring Part II – JADE Learning

Here is a list of the most common electrical mistakes made when installing a hot tub outdoors

www.jadelearning.com

Equipotential bonding of the perimeter surfaces is not required if the installation meets the following conditions in 680.42(B) 1-4:

1. The spa or hot tub shall be listed as a self-contained spa for aboveground use.
2. The spa or hot tub shall not be identified as suitable only for indoor use.
3. The installation shall be in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions and shall be located on or above grade.
4. The top rim of the spa or hot tub shall be at least 28 in. above all surfaces around the hot tub that are within 30 in., measured horizontally from the spa or hot tub. The height of nonconductive external steps for entry to or exit from the self-contained spa shall not be used to reduce or increase this rim height measurement

A spa or hot tub must be listed by one of the third party testing agencies like UL, Met Labs, or ETL and meet all of the conditions in 680.42(B) if an equipotential bonding grid is not installed.

 

[Brussell]

Bonding vs Grounding

Electricity and water don't mix. Learn a few basic tips how to keep your family safe when dealing with electricity around your pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

Pool and Spa Wiring Part II – JADE Learning

Here is a list of the most common electrical mistakes made when installing a hot tub outdoors

www.jadelearning.com

Equipotential bonding of the perimeter surfaces is not required if the installation meets the following conditions in 680.42(B) 1-4:

1. The spa or hot tub shall be listed as a self-contained spa for aboveground use.
2. The spa or hot tub shall not be identified as suitable only for indoor use.
3. The installation shall be in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions and shall be located on or above grade.
4. The top rim of the spa or hot tub shall be at least 28 in. above all surfaces around the hot tub that are within 30 in., measured horizontally from the spa or hot tub. The height of nonconductive external steps for entry to or exit from the self-contained spa shall not be used to reduce or increase this rim height measurement

A spa or hot tub must be listed by one of the third party testing agencies like UL, Met Labs, or ETL and meet all of the conditions in 680.42(B) if an equipotential bonding grid is not installed.

Absolutely Correct. That also assumes that the unit is STILL internally bonded as per the manufacturer and that the GFCI is functioning properly. Their should be a Grounding/Bonding wire connected to every electrical metallic component: Heater, Jet Pumps, Circuation Pump, Ozonator, Air Blower, and Control Unit. Check your GFCI (trip/reset). Non-conductive steps are a serious must. And for the gold standard, equipotential bonding gives you double redundancy on your GFCI.