Here we go again - Variable Speed Pump and GFCI breaker tripping AGAIN ??

[tstex]

Well, after going through all kinds of reiterations of my Hayward 3200 EcoStar VSP tripping the GFCI D-Pole 20AMP breaker, Hayward graciously replaced the entire pump and the pump breaker. Prior to changing the out both, the pump was put on diff GFCI D-Pole 20AMP breakers, and the tripping followed whatever breaker it was placed [total of 2].

After the pump and breaker were replaced, it did not trip for 4-5 months, then it tripped 3 weeks ago, and now again this morning today [June 27]. The previous VSP and breaker started out tripping infrequently, then about every 3-4 weeks, then to 1-2 times per week. The current VSP & breaker are now in line to potentially start the same trend.

Here's exactly one thing in common when the breaker from the previous VSPump tripped, to again what is happening now. ALL of the trips occurred while on the second of the 4 VSP settings. Here are the current settings:

Set1: 7am-9am, 2850RPM [Hi Speed]
Set2: 9am-2Pm, 1380RPM [Low Speed]
Set3: 9pm-11pm 2800RPM [Hi Speed]
Set4: 11pm-5am 1250RPM [Low Speed]

During all of the previous trips on the replaced VSP and breaker were all on Setting 2, sometime around 11am I can tell best. The time it tripped today was very close to 9:15am, and the previous trip 3 weeks ago was between 11am-12:30pm. The breaker type under both instances is a Sq-D Double-Pole 20AMP GFCI Breaker. Under all instances, it is the main bar that trips on the breaker. Just for the record, when the breaker is tripped, the breaker bar is offset in the middle. To reset, I always turn in all the way to the off position, then flip it back fully to the on-position. Upon doing so and the VSP is still programmed to run, it will start immediately. Note, when all of these breaker have tripped, there were no other devices on the equipment pad that were operating.

So, I am convinced that Variable Speed Pumps and GFCI breakers [4-6ma range] are destined for failure. The changes in the speeds for some reason seems to cause enough "electrical noise" that the 4-6ma range cannot handle it. The Siemen QF220 DP 20AMP breaker did the same thing but more often [5ma limit].

Therefore, if you have a Variable Speed pump, regardless of the brand, and your breakers have never tripped [or 1-2 times per year over 3+ yrs] I would like to know:

1). What are your settings:
a) what times do you run it?
b) how long do you run it?
c) what are the RPM settings for each respective times?

2). What type of breakers do you have?
a) how long have you had them?
b) have they ever tripped due to your VSP?
c) if yes to b), are there any trends you can identify?

Thank you very much and I would be MOST indebted to anyone that can help me and my family solve this problem.

Regards, tstex

 

[borjis]

yes VS pumps are quite sensitive to gfci breakers.

What generally works very well and reliably, is Siemens brand gfci breakers.

What brand of GFCI breaker do you have on the vs pump?

And is the vs pump wired to it's own dedicated surge protector?
If not, you really should do that too. They are highly susceptible
to power surges.

 

[Jimrahbe]

tex,

I think we talked about this before, but can't remember specifically...

1. Does the breaker that powers the pump power anything else at all? Do the wires go directly to the pump and not to any relays at all?

2. For reference I have a Pentair breaker than was installed by my pool builder. It may or may no be identical to a Siemens breaker, I have no idea, but I suspect my PB put it in for a reason..

3. I have never had a trip... it has been almost three years.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[tstex]

yes VS pumps are quite sensitive to gfci breakers.

What generally works very well and reliably, is Siemens brand gfci breakers.

What brand of GFCI breaker do you have on the vs pump? Sq-D, same spec's as the Siemens. We [pool comp and Hayward techs] started out w the Siemens and we switched to Sq-D...that seemed to have stopped the problem, for awhile. The Siemens has a 5ma threshold while the Sq-D has a 4-6ma range..

And is the vs pump wired to it's own dedicated surge protector?
If not, you really should do that too. They are highly susceptible
to power surges.

no, the pump nor anything else is on a surge protector. I'm trying to discern why it runs fine for 4-6 months, then starts tripping every 3 weeks and eventually to 1-2 times per week?

 

[tstex]

tex,

I think we talked about this before, but can't remember specifically...

Yes, this is round 2, unfortunately

1. Does the breaker that powers the pump power anything else at all? Do the wires go directly to the pump and not to any relays at all?

I have it configured that both pumps have their own dedicated breaker w nothing on it except a pump. Nothing else is on the breaker. The pumps are home-runned from the breaker all the way to the pump circuitry, no relay switches or anything in btw.

2. For reference I have a Pentair breaker than was installed by my pool builder. It may or may no be identical to a Siemens breaker, I have no idea, but I suspect my PB put it in for a reason..

The Pentair breaker is a Siemens OEM re-labeled for Pentair. It is the same as the Siemens QF220 Double-Pole 20AMP Breaker.

3. I have never had a trip... it has been almost three years.

I see you have a Pentair 3HP VSP. Jim, can you please tell me what how you have your Pentair 3HP pump configured as far as what time(s) it runs, how long and the RPM's. I would surely appreciate it !!!!

Thanks,

Jim R.

please see answers above

 

[Jimrahbe]

I have no way to tell for sure, but I suspect that the Pentair breakers are culled out of the Siemens production run because they trip at the high end of the tolerance. I only say this because when I actually worked for a living, a lot of parts that we bought had our unique part numbers, but they came off the standard production line. We would spec a tighter tolerance than the manufacturer, and they would test them to make sure the parts they supplied were within our tolerance. This cost us more, but much less than having the factory build parts specifically for us. We did this with dozens and dozens of parts, so it was not an unusual occurrence. Does Pentair do this? I have no idea, but I can't believe they make a killing off of selling circuit breakers..

I run my pump 24/7 at 1,200 RPM (I have a SWCG)... I ramp the speed up to 1,400 and 2,000 a few times a day to help with the skimming and once a day to run my water fall at 3,000 RPM for about 10 minutes. In my case my pump is scheduled from 8 am until 8 am at 1,200... I just tell it to increase speed for a period of time, then when I turn off the "increase" it automatically reverts back to the 1,200 RPM setting. There is not starting or stopping of the pump.

Of course this was BMLS... Before My Lightning Strike...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[tstex]

I have no way to tell for sure, but I suspect that the Pentair breakers are culled out of the Siemens production run because they trip at the high end of the tolerance. I only say this because when I actually worked for a living, a lot of parts that we bought had our unique part numbers, but they came off the standard production line. We would spec a tighter tolerance than the manufacturer, and they would test them to make sure the parts they supplied were within our tolerance. This cost us more, but much less than having the factory build parts specifically for us. We did this with dozens and dozens of parts, so it was not an unusual occurrence. Does Pentair do this? I have no idea, but I can't believe they make a killing off of selling circuit breakers..

I run my pump 24/7 at 1,200 RPM (I have a SWCG)... I ramp the speed up to 1,400 and 2,000 a few times a day to help with the skimming and once a day to run my water fall at 3,000 RPM for about 10 minutes. In my case my pump is scheduled from 8 am until 8 am at 1,200... I just tell it to increase speed for a period of time, then when I turn off the "increase" it automatically reverts back to the 1,200 RPM setting. There is not starting or stopping of the pump.

Of course this was BMLS... Before My Lightning Strike...

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thank you Jim.

First, I was told that the Siemens were more sensitive than the SQ-D's. The Siemens has a max 4-5ma threshold, while the SQ-D up to 6 [4-6ma]. Now, this is not the Pentair OEM'ed ones, but factory Siemens. It is what Hayward spec's for the VSP's. I had all Siemens installed in my original pool install, then the pool vendor and Hayward decided to replace them all w Sq-D...the breakers were tripping all the time. I had as long as 6-8 months go by w no tripping, but eventually either a pump part would go bad and trip the breaker or the pump did itself wout a pump problem.

Next, based on how you run your pump, it could really be just a [low] single-speed pump. There is no variation, esp under automation. The only times you change it appears to be self-invoked and only during very short intervals. When I have self-invoked my pump, and changed up the speeds, I've never tripped a breaker. I would be REAL INTERESTED to see if you re-programmed your VSP to diff RPM's and at many diff times, what would be the end result?

Thanks again Jim,
tstex

 

[tstex]

PS - Sorry about your lightening hit Jim...hope it works out for you

 

[dmh]

Have a look at this thread: Pentair VS Trips Dedicated 20-amp GFCI Breaker

After I installed a dedicated GFCI breaker for my Pentair VS pump and wired it directly to the pump, I have not had one trip (since 12/16). None. I understand that you have a dedicated breaker, so the thread may not be of much use to you. But, it may be worth a look. Something may pop out at you.

You may want to look also at your neutral and ground bars to make sure they are snug. Make sure there are no shared neutrals too.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, have you measured the amps drawn by the pump when it is running at steady rpm compared to when it is switching speeds?

 

[Zrock]

Just out of curiosity have you checked the breaker during the day to see if it's getting hot? Something in your system could be shorting out. Once a breaker trips it's no longer rated for its full capacity. Each time it trips it gets weaker. Reason I bring up a short someware is during the winter we had a mouse chew through one of our 30 amp rv plugs. We had 2 on this run each on their own 30 amp breaker shared common. The breaker would kick out randomly for both sites and never at the same time. Took a while to find the issue did not find it till a week or so later when it blew the 200amp main.

 

[tstex]

Have a look at this thread: Pentair VS Trips Dedicated 20-amp GFCI Breaker

After I installed a dedicated GFCI breaker for my Pentair VS pump and wired it directly to the pump, I have not had one trip (since 12/16). None. I understand that you have a dedicated breaker, so the thread may not be of much use to you. But, it may be worth a look. Something may pop out at you. Read the thread...My wiring is all home-runned, no delays, nothing on pump breaker but pump...all wires have their separate lugs both on breaker and panel [including neutrals].

You may want to look also at your neutral and ground bars to make sure they are snug. Make sure there are no shared neutrals too. Everything is separate and tight.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, have you measured the amps drawn by the pump when it is running at steady rpm compared to when it is switching speeds?

Have not done that...

See answers above - thanks

BTW, what are your settings on your VSP? Meaning, what times does it run, how long and what RPM's ? Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Just out of curiosity have you checked the breaker during the day to see if it's getting hot? Something in your system could be shorting out. Once a breaker trips it's no longer rated for its full capacity. Each time it trips it gets weaker. Reason I bring up a short someware is during the winter we had a mouse chew through one of our 30 amp rv plugs. We had 2 on this run each on their own 30 amp breaker shared common. The breaker would kick out randomly for both sites and never at the same time. Took a while to find the issue did not find it till a week or so later when it blew the 200amp main.

Thanks Z - this also happens in the winter, so I do not think heat is an issue, but I have had a 40AMP breaker to my well pump in country get bad after 20 yrs and when the sun heated up the panel, it tripped - replaced it and since then nothing, so that is a valid observation. my panel only gets sun from about 3-5 pm, which is a hot part of the day, but when I take off the panel cover to service box, everything looks perfectly fine w no burnt wiring, chewed anything or other...

 

[CJadamec]

I have siemens dual pole GFCI breakers one for my VS pump and 1 for my heat pump. They have been installed over a year now and live outside in coastal New England weather (hot and humid summers and cold and wet winters). My sub panel is in full sun from 9am to 6pm. I haven't had any phantom trips of either breaker since they were installed. The pumps runs its own timer and runs at speeds from 1400-2300. It starts and stops switches speeds at will with the heat pump on or off with no problems. I'm now using the external control on the pump and still have no issues with the breaker. I've even run a circular saw off my pool subpanel while everything else is running and there isn't even a change in pitch from the heat pump fan motor when the saw goes on and off.

I admit I know there was potential for there to be issues with the GFCI breakers and that Pentair called out the seimens breakers as the ones to use with their VS pumps at one point which is why I have that brand breaker. If you are having persistent problems with phantom trips on your breaker even after swapping the breakers out it's likely you have a wiring issue somewhere not a breaker problem.

 

[dmh]

My Pentair VS pump runs at around 3200 rpm twice per day, 9-10 AM and 7-8 PM, and at around 1650 rpm 10 AM-7 PM and again 8 PM - 10 PM. I say "around" because I am not home to check the rpm right now. Again, my problems were solved by putting the pump on its own GFCI breaker and home running the power from the breaker to the pump. Nothing else is on this circuit.

I protected my Intellitouch panel (which sits in the south Texas hot sun all day) from the heat by attaching cheap styrofoam panels from Home Depot to the outside of it using silicone sealer. It is not very attractive (although not in view of anyone), but the styrofoam keeps the inside of the panel significantly cooler than without them, at least by the "hand touch test." I installed the styrofoam after the Pentair computer board failed. I thought about installing a computer fan inside the box to keep the board cool, but I ended up going with the ugly but effective passive system instead.

If I were you, I would measure the current to the pump with a clamp-on meter as the pump switches speeds. It can't hurt to try this unless you kill yourself. I think this is the meter I have: https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-MSR...498674338&sr=8-2&keywords=current+measurement. They are good to have around for diagnosing electric motor problems (e.g., AC fans and compressors).

Another idea: Turn off all (or at least most of) the breakers in your pool panel except the pump. See if you still get trips on the pump breaker. If not, this suggests a fundamental problem with the wiring.

 

[tstex]

My Pentair VS pump runs at around 3200 rpm twice per day, 9-10 AM and 7-8 PM, and at around 1650 rpm 10 AM-7 PM and again 8 PM - 10 PM. I say "around" because I am not home to check the rpm right now. Again, my problems were solved by putting the pump on its own GFCI breaker and home running the power from the breaker to the pump. Nothing else is on this circuit.

I protected my Intellitouch panel (which sits in the south Texas hot sun all day) from the heat by attaching cheap styrofoam panels from Home Depot to the outside of it using silicone sealer. It is not very attractive (although not in view of anyone), but the styrofoam keeps the inside of the panel significantly cooler than without them, at least by the "hand touch test." I installed the styrofoam after the Pentair computer board failed. I thought about installing a computer fan inside the box to keep the board cool, but I ended up going with the ugly but effective passive system instead.

If I were you, I would measure the current to the pump with a clamp-on meter as the pump switches speeds. It can't hurt to try this unless you kill yourself. I think this is the meter I have: https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-MSR...498674338&sr=8-2&keywords=current+measurement. They are good to have around for diagnosing electric motor problems (e.g., AC fans and compressors).

Another idea: Turn off all (or at least most of) the breakers in your pool panel except the pump. See if you still get trips on the pump breaker. If not, this suggests a fundamental problem with the wiring.

Thanks a lot DJ & dmh. Appreciate the input.

well, you certainly are running your pump at variable speeds and too at diff intervals and all. I'm inclined to take off the gray conduit, open up the pump and panel and pull al lthe wiring out of the conduit and examine it for any nicks and all. However, if it truly is the wiring, why would it work for 4-5 months fine, then trip intermittently starting in 3-4 week intervals, then go to every 2 weeks, then to every week? That tells me that something btw the pump and the VSP harmonics is somehow tripping breaker, and the more it does it, the 4-5ma range on the SQ-D 20AMP Double-Pole GFCI breaker becomes more sensitive and looses its higher ma threshold and goes from 6am to 4ma or less.

Next, why does it only trip during the 2nd run-cycle? It always trips sometime btw 9am - 2pm...mostly around 11am-noon. The last time was somewhat close to 9am [915-930am] is when I noticed the inside remote flashing "System Error". Also, anytime I have manually invoked the pump to start, it has never tripped during that time.

Now, the last time it tripped this week, we were having a lot of rain. I cannot remember 3-4 weeks ago if it was raining. So, I'm going to make note of the trip during inclement weather from rain [no lightening] and see if moisture comes into play. But, if the cycle of tripping starts again and again w greater frequency intervals, then it cannot solely be potential moisture as the main catalyst. I guess another option is to change-up the 2nd run-time by both a start-up time and RPM level...maybe I am running my pump too often anyway...Thanks a million guys, tstex

 

[CJadamec]

It may not be a damaged wire that is the problem. It could be improper wiring in your pool panel or in your house causing the trips. If it happens frequently at certain times or conditions look out side of the pump and see what else is going on at those times. You may need to verify that you aren't experiencing a voltage drop when the pump changes speeds.

The trip level of 5ma is required by code for protection of people there is nothing you can do about that. Since you have tried multiple breakers and had the same problem it's not the breakers that are the problem.

 

[tstex]

CJadamec wrote:

"If it happens frequently at certain times or conditions look out side of the pump and see what else is going on at those times. You may need to verify that you aren't experiencing a voltage drop when the pump changes speeds."

CJ, nothing else on the equipment pad, at the times the breaker trips, is being turned on or off. The only thing that is operating is the control panel, which operates prob under 1-2 amps max, and is supported by its own 15am GFCI Breaker. Also, when the breaker trips, it is never at the exact time of 9am when the VS-Pump goes from 2950RPM's to 1350RPM's. It trips sometimes hours after the change has been made to RPM's and has been running at the same speed. I could see if it tripped going from 1250 to 2950RPM's and stepping up, or at start-up of 3200RPM's bc of a possible amp overload, but that is never the case, it's always on a lower speed and after it has been running for quite sometime.

Next, there's nothing else in the garage or nearby that has a compressor [deep-freezer. refrig, work compressor, etc] that is drawing additional amp's btw the 9am -2pm period. Everything is constant. I'm really at a loss here...thanks again

 

[CJadamec]

There is also the possibility that you have an intermittent ground fault and the breaker is doing its job.

You say there are no loads in the garage but it could be a load anywhere in your house that is causing the problem.
Have you checked for any shared neutrals or neutral to ground connections? These can be anywhere in your house wiring and still cause an issue.
Have you checked to make sure you electrical system is properly grounded? Ground rods can go bad over time.

Have you contacted Hayward and asked them about potential issues with your drive electronics and explained to them the troubleshooting steps you have tired?

 

[tstex]

There is also the possibility that you have an intermittent ground fault and the breaker is doing its job.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if a breaker is a GFCI type, and it's a grounding issue, isn't the GFCI [smaller yellow or white] buttons supposed to trip, and if it's an amperage issue, the breaker bar is supposed to trip? The breaker panel, pool, all the equipment are all very well grounded/bonded.

You say there are no loads in the garage but it could be a load anywhere in your house that is causing the problem.
Have you checked for any shared neutrals or neutral to ground connections? These can be anywhere in your house wiring and still cause an issue.

I have not checked either of the two 200AMP service panels in our garage. The house was built in 2005, we moved in 2008, and only a GFCI 110 outlet has tripped. This was a result of too many Christmas lights on one outlet. Other than that, nothing has ever tripped. In the kitchen, we have a Refrig-freezer, and another in a nearby utility room. On the other side of the house, two 5-ton condensing units [re the compressors]. A microwave in the kitchen too. As far as I can deduct, none of these have exhibited any issues by themselves...I can pull off the panel covers to see if I note anything.

Have you checked to make sure you electrical system is properly grounded? Ground rods can go bad over time.

Yes, ground rod is fine and was recently checked

Have you contacted Hayward and asked them about potential issues with your drive electronics and explained to them the troubleshooting steps you have tired?

Hayward has now told me "there is nothing more we can do". So, even since I am under warranty till March 2018, I am on my own. This came from their district rep and their technical support center defers to the district rep to make the call. Hayward has stated that the pump they pulled off my equipment pad that was replaced by a new pump, that the previous pump has worked at one of the technician's pool fine w no trips. However, I have asked repeatedly, "how is the variable speed pump programmed as far as run times and RPM settings?" They have refused to answer and said, "that will do you no good". I have also asked "what type of breaker is the pump using?" No answer on that one either. I can tell you with great certainty, that a variable speed pump set on just one speed and set to run at just one time, is a totally different animal than one that has multiple run times and multiple rpm settings.

Thanks CJ - Pls see responses above.

PS - be really glad that you have Pentair Equipment re your VSP...no one deserves to go thru the instability and problems that we have and still continue to endure since Jan 2015...

 

[CJadamec]

Sorry for asking questions already answered but sometimes it's helpful to step back and start at the beginning with open eyes.

Just so I'm clear on how everything is hooked up.

Power starts in the main panel in the garage and is fed from a standard dual pole breaker 240V 40 amps?
Power goes into a sub panel / automation panel out at the equipment pad. Is there a main breaker or lug connection where the main power connects to the pool panel.
Are there 4 wires coming from the house 2hot 1nuetral 1green insulated ground?
Power to the pump is fed from its own dedicated dual pole GFCI breaker? No other equipment on the pump circuit?
That breaker has a neutral pig tale connected to the neutral bus bar?
The pump is fed with 3 wires 2hot 1green insulated ground?
The neutral bus in your pool panel is insulated from the panel and ground bus?
There are no ground rods or other ground connections at the pool panel?
All other equipment including any automation is wired correct and there are no nuetral to ground connections?

Adding pictures of how things are connected could be helpful.

 

[tstex]

Sorry for asking questions already answered but sometimes it's helpful to step back and start at the beginning with open eyes.

Just so I'm clear on how everything is hooked up.

Power starts in the main panel in the garage and is fed from a standard dual pole breaker 240V 40 amps?
The breaker in the garage is a Double Pole 70 Amp breaker, and yes, fed from the garage w about a 20 ft run from house panel to pool panel

Power goes into a sub panel / automation panel out at the equipment pad. Is there a main breaker or lug connection where the main power connects to the pool panel.
no main breaker on the sub-pool panel, just individual breakers w lug connections

Are there 4 wires coming from the house 2hot 1nuetral 1green insulated ground?
Sorry, I did not check this bc I could not turn-off the 200amp breaker to the house to take off the metal cover to inspect

Power to the pump is fed from its own dedicated dual pole GFCI breaker? No other equipment on the pump circuit?
Yes, the VSP is on its own double pole 20AMP GFCI breaker. In fact, the other water feature pump is on its own breaker too

That breaker has a neutral pig tale connected to the neutral bus bar?
Yes, the breaker has a coiled white neutral pigtail, but I did not trace it

The pump is fed with 3 wires 2hot 1green insulated ground?
yes

The neutral bus in your pool panel is insulated from the panel and ground bus?
see pic w green wires

There are no ground rods or other ground connections at the pool panel?
there are unshielded copper wiring coming off every piece of equipment, to the panel and ground wires going from panel into conduit going into the ground below panel

All other equipment including any automation is wired correct and there are no nuetral to ground connections?
All white neutrals are in one sections and al green wires on in the ground or green section

Adding pictures of how things are connected could be helpful.

CJ - see answers above - the next post I do will be 6 pics w explanations - thank you very much - tstex