Foam AFTER an purge and refill

[nullperspchum]

Hello, I have been a lurker for awhile but I am having an issue with my tub and was hoping for some advice

I have a Bullfrog M6 which I got about 9 months ago, and I use the included frog@ease system.

I had a medical thing and wasn't able to check the tub for 4-5 days, and my chlorine cartridge ran out. I came back to a yucky tub. For full disclosure, my tub was not as sparkling as it would have been normally been to start with, as this last fill I decided to try Aqua Clarity as a weekly dose and had some tribulations. I swapped the cartridge and gave it a couple tablespoons of dichlor as a shock just to bide time.

A couple days later when I had time, I did a purge with Ahh-Some. This created way more foam than usual, spilling over the sides, but the foam seemed cleaner (whiter) than I expected given the state of the water (not much gunk on the edges).

I refilled and turned on my jets to test and get ready to start balancing my water and was surprised to see foam quickly appear. I ultimately couldn't see anything else to do but repeat Ahh-some purge and drain and fill again.

I did all this, but I am still seeing some foam and some like Ahh-some gunk, which is just not where I want to be starting from. I tried throwing in a couple tbsp of dichlor to shock it again but I didn't notice a profound change.

My gut is I need to drain and fill yet again, but I am not sure what's going on. Did my tub just get really funky? Is this unheard of?

I am not sure if I should be doing another purge, or a part strength purge or if I just need a rinse at this point (the continued gunk makes me think there is still some Ahh-some working in the pipes).

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

Let’s see what @Ahhsomeguy advises.

 

[phonedave]

You have a lot going on here.

1) Stop using the Frog system, or at least use it until you run out of the "free" cartages they gave you when you bought the tub. It really is not a good system, and it also makes measuring CC (and therefore a key measure of the health of your water) impossible with a standard test kit.

2) Hot tubs are much smaller than pools. Sounds obvious, but what that means is that while in a pool, an extra tablespoon of a chemical does not have a huge impact in a hot tub a extra tablespoon of DiChlor can send your CYA up quite a bit. Dosing in a hot tub needs to be fairly accurate.

3) AhhSome (and Aqua Clarity) and Chlorine (either DiChlor or Bleach) are two different things that perform two different tasks. Chlorine kills stuff. But only stuff that it can get to. AhhSome does not kill. It removes biofilms, which are like natural armor that the bacteria builds for itself. You should add some bleach when you purge, in order to kill what gets revealed, but it does not help the AhhSome do the job it was designed for. By itself, chlorine does very little to remove biofilm.

4) Did you purge your tub when you first got it. You fill it up (no need to balance or heat the water) add Ahhsome and bleach and run the jets. Wipe up all the gunk. After 15 - 20 minutes, add an other does off AhhSome (and some bleach while you are at it) and wipe up the new gunk that comes out. Keep doing this until no more gunk comes out.

 

[nullperspchum]

To answer the last question first, I learned about Ahh-some right after I got the tub, so it was not done before 1st use of the tub. I have done Ahh-some purge before each drain and re-fill however, and this is my 4th purge and drain (a bit ahead of schedule due to my current issue). So I am fairly well acquainted with the Ahh-some purge process.

Expected the feedback on the frog system on this forum, but until now it has been working fine for me (and this is my fault).

I typically don't use more chemicals than I have to. Since the 2nd fill I've used Borax to get borates to around 40ppm, and other than that I balance my water for calcium, alkalinity and pH. The first fill I was adding some dichlor periodically to boost sanitizer, but I would say that I rarely do that now. I typically have to boost the alkalinity and pH here and there because we are a bit inconsistent on use, and those drift a bit when it hasn't been used in a few days. On previous fills, I had been using 8oz of Stain and Scale (rest for about a day as directed) before any water balancing as we have somewhat hard water, but I haven't done that on this fill due to tshooting.

The most recent fill, being pleased with normal Ahh-some purges, I decided to try adding Aqua Clarity as a weekly (and I intended to eventually add it as purge), but I had some issues. I didn't realize how much extra load it was going to put on my filter in the initial stages, and got cloudy water after 2-3 weeks due to filter being gunked up (normally the paper filters in M series are good for 4-5 weeks). New filter and shocking it with dichlor did not totally eliminate the cloudiness, so I tried a water clarifier for the first time (HTH, if that matters). This did eliminate the cloudiness, but from that point on I felt the water just wasn't quite right -- levels were OK but I had a small amount of white "suds" when I used the jets and I sort of knew I was destined for a earlier than usual water change. Then came my mistake where I couldn't get to the tub for 4-5 days and the chlorine cartridge ran out. I had a little bit of smell, cloudiness, some foam when I ran the jets, and some white film on the surface even when the jets were off.

My local pool guy says after two purges and drains, I should just super chlorinate and go from there, but I don't really want to be starting from a point where the water isn't pristine...

To be clear, my current state is probably more "bubbles" than "foam" on the surface, but I am still getting some brownish deposits on these bubbles similar to what you get from Ahh-some. The water itself does appear clear at this point. Shocking it with dichlor may have helped the bubbles a bit, but basically the question now is whether I should balance my water and move forward or drain and fill again...

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

Good evening Nullperspchum: No need to purge again until your next 4-6 month time period. You probably have residual purge material in the water, lines and jets. No worry for that. If your Bullfrog hot tub has jet packs, you are still seeing a little gunk because biofilm clings to the back of them. Did you remove them when you purged? I recommend that you do and be sure to dip them into the water with the Ahhsome so they can be cleaned. Some people leave them in for 15 minutes and remove them for 15 minutes. I wouldn't drain the water. Run the tub and be sure to keep chlorine level between 1-5 and 3.0 ppm. Balance pH accordingly. Skim any excess foaming you may see, especially when you turn the jets on and open the air intake venturis. I want to be certain that you did mix the 6 ounce Aqua Clarity Concentrate into 122 ounces of tap water to make a full gallon. You only need to add 1 ounce of the mixed Aqua Clarity for every 200 gallons weekly. The AC is a strong clarifier, coagulant and bio-gunk remover. Actually, most people using the Aqua Clarity weekly can go well over 1 year or so before they need to purge. Using that product means you don't have to drain and refill nearly as often since biofilms are swept away 24/7. I now go 18 months with my 720 gallon hot tub before I purge, drain and refill. Even after all that time I hardly get any bio-gunk release into the water when I purge. So, get the water balanced as close as you can and use the tub. If the AC is in the water and you maintain a decent chlorine residual your water will look great by Sunday. I love the area you are in. Beverly, Beverly Farms, Peabody and Topsfield have a very high concentration of hot tubs. A great area to live in. Good luck with getting everything back in order. Be sure to keep me posted.

 

[phonedave]

Good evening Nullperspchum: No need to purge again until your next 4-6 month time period. You probably have residual purge material in the water, lines and jets. No worry for that. If your Bullfrog hot tub has jet packs, you are still seeing a little gunk because biofilm clings to the back of them. Did you remove them when you purged? I recommend that you do and be sure to dip them into the water with the Ahhsome so they can be cleaned. Some people leave them in for 15 minutes and remove them for 15 minutes. I wouldn't drain the water. Run the tub and be sure to keep chlorine level between 1-5 and 3.0 ppm. Balance pH accordingly. Skim any excess foaming you may see, especially when you turn the jets on and open the air intake venturis. I want to be certain that you did mix the 6 ounce Aqua Clarity Concentrate into 122 ounces of tap water to make a full gallon. You only need to add 1 ounce of the mixed Aqua Clarity for every 200 gallons weekly. The AC is a strong clarifier, coagulant and bio-gunk remover. Actually, most people using the Aqua Clarity weekly can go well over 1 year or so before they need to purge. Using that product means you don't have to drain and refill nearly as often since biofilms are swept away 24/7. I now go 18 months with my 720 gallon hot tub before I purge, drain and refill. Even after all that time I hardly get any bio-gunk release into the water when I purge. So, get the water balanced as close as you can and use the tub. If the AC is in the water and you maintain a decent chlorine residual your water will look great by Sunday. I love the area you are in. Beverly, Beverly Farms, Peabody and Topsfield have a very high concentration of hot tubs. A great area to live in. Good luck with getting everything back in order. Be sure to keep me posted.

My method that works for me and my Bullfrog is.

Take the filters out, and put them in the middle of the tub and purge with AhhSome - with the water feature on (you want to make sure that thing gets purged as well). Make sure all of the jet controls on your jet packs are full open - remembers packs that have the neck blaster jets have a secondary jet control for just the neck blaster jets. After the purge time is done, I start to drain the tub. I pull everything that can be pulled - jet packs, pillows, filter weir, filter mounts, etc and wipe down and rinse each one. I wipe down the tub as it is draining and I shop vac out as much water as possible. I have a second set of filters that I swap in. I spray the old ones and then soak them overnight in OxyClean (Two A6 filter fit perfectly in a 5 gallon bucket with a lid)

I fill the tub with tap water. I balance the water using Muriatic Acid and Calcium. I run my CA pretty high, 300-350 ppm, I will explain further down. I start out with DiChlor for Cl, and when my CYA hits 30-40 I switch over to bleach. For the first 7 - 10 days I have to add acid daily to keep pH in check. I don't bother to try and adjust TA to some calculated balance point, I just keep adding acid until the pH and TA sort it out between themselves and the come to a balance with my pH in an acceptable range. After that, need to add acid 1-2 times a week, depending on usage and how often we run the jets, sometimes we just sit in the tub with the jets only on when the tub feels it needs them for heating.

Once a week I add a scant oz of AquaClarity. This is where the 300-350 ppm of CA comes into play. I find that I get quite a bit of foam from the AquaClarity if my CA is lower. When adding the AquaClarity I also run my water feature for a few minutes. Even at 300-350 ppm of CA the AquaClarity will foam a little, but it subsides in 5-10 minutes. With my CA lower, I would get foam blowing across the backyard. I also pull the filters and rinse them out. I rarely look at them and determine I have to swap in the other set and do a deep clean on them.

By doing the above, I purge and refill every three months or so. I can go longer, and sometimes I do so if weather does not play nice (draining and cleaning the tub when the weather is in the 30's F is not pleasant), but it only takes me 2 hours or less to drain and clean the tub (and then a little longer to wait for it to finally fill, and then heating takes a long time)

I really think the AquaClarity is helping to break any biofilms on a regular basis - when I purge, very little comes out. I also think that running the water feature helps. I know that we use it sporadically. Sometimes we turn it on when we are in the tub, other times not. Running it helps to get sanitizer and AquaClarity through that plumbing.

 

[nullperspchum]

I want to be certain that you did mix the 6 ounce Aqua Clarity Concentrate into 122 ounces of tap water to make a full gallon. You only need to add 1 ounce of the mixed Aqua Clarity for every 200 gallons weekly.

I put the AquaClarity into a recycled jug of window washer fluid, which is far as I know is a full gallon. I cannot double check as I removed the label to add the AquaClarity label. I did the fill 2/3rds with water, add AQ, fill rest of way.

@phonedave I actually had a post (that turns out was actually from you) pinned that I follow when I am doing my purge: Calling all Bullfrog Spa Owners

To confirm, I open all the JetPaks and water features during my purge, and then I wipe down and rinse out the JetPaks with the hose while the tub is draining.

My tub has the disposable paper filters, so there is no filter washing for me (unless you count Bullfrog taking me to cleaners for them every month).

Once a week I add a scant oz of AquaClarity. This is where the 300-350 ppm of CA comes into play. I find that I get quite a bit of foam from the AquaClarity if my CA is lower. When adding the AquaClarity I also run my water feature for a few minutes. Even at 300-350 ppm of CA the AquaClarity will foam a little, but it subsides in 5-10 minutes. With my CA lower, I would get foam blowing across the backyard. I also pull the filters and rinse them out. I rarely look at them and determine I have to swap in the other set and do a deep clean on them.

I spoke to AhhSome separately as well, and he also said he would use less AquaClarity per week. I was actually slightly underdosing per the directions (about 1.5oz a week, when the directions said about 1.75), but basically he said the dosage they list is kind of a starting point and individual water chemistry plays a big role. My plan was to start dosing next week (skipping a week) and do 1/2 oz, and go from there. The thought on the higher CH is interesting -- I am definitely not as high as 300. I have seen some discrepancy on CH suggestions -- poolmath says 120-200, but I've seen 200-300 other places. I am probably around 150.

I am currently slightly sudsier than I'd like (but not really foamy), and still getting a little gunk behind the two JetPaks on the filter side of the tub (the other side seems clear for whatever reason).

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

As you continue use of the Aqus Clarity you will see less "gunk as you say". Give a few weeks and you'll see what I mean.

 

[phonedave]

I put the AquaClarity into a recycled jug of window washer fluid, which is far as I know is a full gallon. I cannot double check as I removed the label to add the AquaClarity label. I did the fill 2/3rds with water, add AQ, fill rest of way.

@phonedave I actually had a post (that turns out was actually from you) pinned that I follow when I am doing my purge: Calling all Bullfrog Spa Owners

To confirm, I open all the JetPaks and water features during my purge, and then I wipe down and rinse out the JetPaks with the hose while the tub is draining.

My tub has the disposable paper filters, so there is no filter washing for me (unless you count Bullfrog taking me to cleaners for them every month).

Yes, you want to purge all of the pipes in the tub, so open everything. All of the jet packs, the water feature, and any of the non-jetpack jets that you may have closed for whatever reason. Then run your purge.

Then I do as you said. Pull the jet packs for cleaning while draining the tub. While the tub is draining, I hose out the jet packs, wipe them down, etc. For me, I have found the following the best way to rinse them out (gets all the jets rinsed and minimizes how soaked you get) Lay the pack flat, jet sides down, on a table. If you want, put a towel down under the pack to make sure it does not get scratched. Stick the hose in the main port, and run it on full, or flood, or whatever setting your nozzle calls "a lot of water". That should wash out all of the jets. You can also set the hose to jet, and then try and spray it into the individual jets, but I really don't think that does anything besides get you soaking wet.

One other tip, when putting the packs back in, make sure the rubber seal on the bottom is seated correctly on the pack. On my tub they are a light blue rubber, but maybe they have changed them. They can fall off or get moved when pulling the packs, and if you put the pack back in with them pinched, it can cause issues.

 

[nullperspchum]

One other tip, when putting the packs back in, make sure the rubber seal on the bottom is seated correctly on the pack. On my tub they are a light blue rubber, but maybe they have changed them. They can fall off or get moved when pulling the packs, and if you put the pack back in with them pinched, it can cause issues.

I had that happen once! Couldn't figure why one JetPak didn't want to go back in, but a long history working on electronics has taught me not to force anything that doesn't seem right. Sure enough, one of the JetPaks had left it's o-ring in the tub, and I was trying to put a different JetPak that still had it's o-ring attached in the spot.

 

[nullperspchum]

I swapped out my filter today -- it was gross and it's only been about a week. The gunk behind the JetPaks seems like it may have stopped. I may start up Aqua Clarity small dose later this week after giving it break last week.

I added some more calcium today and will look to boost that number up a bit from 150 -- not sure about going as high as 350 but will see how I fare with higher CH.

One thing I am noticing is I am still getting like a "chlorine smell" when I open the cover. When I refilled it after the 2nd purge, I had put in 2 tbsp of dichlor granules and had my FC up around 10 to start things off (I've since let it come down to normal levels). @Ahhsomeguy mentioned I might want to add an oxidizer, but I'm not really sure what to use. I am hesitant to use MPS (Non-chlorine shock) as I've heard some people have allergies to it, and my wife has very sensitive skin. I was told there is chlorine + oxidizer shock out there, but the couple I've found are just dichlor with MPS or dichlor with Sodium Persulfate (which is also listed as a known skin irritant). Is there any product name anyone can share to use as an oxidizer that is not MPS?

 

[phonedave]

I swapped out my filter today -- it was gross and it's only been about a week. The gunk behind the JetPaks seems like it may have stopped. I may start up Aqua Clarity small dose later this week after giving it break last week.

I added some more calcium today and will look to boost that number up a bit from 150 -- not sure about going as high as 350 but will see how I fare with higher CH.

One thing I am noticing is I am still getting like a "chlorine smell" when I open the cover. When I refilled it after the 2nd purge, I had put in 2 tbsp of dichlor granules and had my FC up around 10 to start things off (I've since let it come down to normal levels). @Ahhsomeguy mentioned I might want to add an oxidizer, but I'm not really sure what to use. I am hesitant to use MPS (Non-chlorine shock) as I've heard some people have allergies to it, and my wife has very sensitive skin. I was told there is chlorine + oxidizer shock out there, but the couple I've found are just dichlor with MPS or dichlor with Sodium Persulfate (which is also listed as a known skin irritant). Is there any product name anyone can share to use as an oxidizer that is not MPS?

MPS is Sodium Persulfate - MonoPerSulfate

If you smell "chlorine" you are likely smelling combined chloramines.

Oxidizer helps "burn off" those CC's. But so do off gassing and sunlight.

When you have the cover closed, those CC's build up from the FC combining with and killing the things it needs to kill. Opening the cover lets them finally escape. As you get your tub cleaner and cleaner, there will be less and less CCs to smell, but you may still smell it a little unless you regularly "vent" your tub.