First Time Pool Owner - Advice

[Vardster]

Hi I came accross this site and have been reading with interest and was hoping to get some impartial advice.

We live in Ontario and are about to install a 16x28 vinyl pool. We agreed the spec some months ago however I have been doing more reaearch and thinking we should go for a Salt Water pool rather than a Ozone UV System. Below is the spec, please can you let me have your thoughts on what the best setup would be for Ozone/Salt, and Filter? We live in an area with lots of trees so will be lots of cleaning needed and We have three young kids. Pool will be seasonal as it freezes here in the winter.

This is the spect at present:

FILTER: One (1) G3 24" Sand Filter.
PUMP: One (1) G3 G-Force VSF Variable Speed Flow Pump.
SKIMMER(S): One (1) WHITE skimmer for improved water surface skimming
action and vacuum plate.
RETURN INLETS: Two (2) WHITE Inlets. Directionally-adjustable inlet fittings.

FLOOR SUCTION
PORT(S):
Two (2) WHITE Main Drains. A special gravel pit is constructed
under the suction ports to allow for the relief of any hydrostatic
water pressure through our hydrostatic valve.


- One (1) G3 Automatic Chlorinator

- One (1) G3 G-Force 300 Series - Digital display,
lightweight, high performance insulation materials
make a heater that is clearly "The best value for
your money". The heater is built for dependability
and efficiency.

- One (1) G3 03 Ozone - Heritage Series. Provides
the cleanest, clearest water for your pool (spa)
with a significant reduction in chlorine use.
Bubbles will be present during normal pool
operation. To avoid bubbles, a degassing
chamber is available at an installed cost - TBD

Really appreciate it,

Edward

 

[Bperry]

Hi I came accross this site and have been reading with interest and was hoping to get some impartial advice.

We live in Ontario and are about to install a 16x28 vinyl pool. We agreed the spec some months ago however I have been doing more reaearch and thinking we should go for a Salt Water pool rather than a Ozone UV System. Below is the spec, please can you let me have your thoughts on what the best setup would be for Ozone/Salt, and Filter? We live in an area with lots of trees so will be lots of cleaning needed and We have three young kids. Pool will be seasonal as it freezes here in the winter.

This is the spect at present:

FILTER: One (1) G3 24" Sand Filter.
PUMP: One (1) G3 G-Force VSF Variable Speed Flow Pump.
SKIMMER(S): One (1) WHITE skimmer for improved water surface skimming
action and vacuum plate.
RETURN INLETS: Two (2) WHITE Inlets. Directionally-adjustable inlet fittings.

FLOOR SUCTION
PORT(S):
Two (2) WHITE Main Drains. A special gravel pit is constructed
under the suction ports to allow for the relief of any hydrostatic
water pressure through our hydrostatic valve.


- One (1) G3 Automatic Chlorinator

- One (1) G3 G-Force 300 Series - Digital display,
lightweight, high performance insulation materials
make a heater that is clearly "The best value for
your money". The heater is built for dependability
and efficiency.

- One (1) G3 03 Ozone - Heritage Series. Provides
the cleanest, clearest water for your pool (spa)
with a significant reduction in chlorine use.
Bubbles will be present during normal pool
operation. To avoid bubbles, a degassing
chamber is available at an installed cost - TBD

Really appreciate it,

Edward

Unless it’s an indoor pool, the UV ozone system is not a good idea because you still have to chlorinate the water, and the UV portion of it will just destroy the chlorine that you’re spending money adding to the water.. The salt system is hands-down way more appropriate as it will make the chlorine for you right there from the salt that you add to the water at the beginning of the season.

 

[Newdude]

+1. UV/Ozone in residential pools are for algae control. Unless they deploy a tent over the pool, they do nothing to combat the FC loss from the sun, which is our only battle here at TFP. If you're properly sanitizing in the first place, there's zero need to control your algae. The typical industry practices need to battle the sun, and algae from epic failing the primary battle.

 

[Bperry]

Unless it’s an indoor pool, the UV ozone system is not a good idea because you still have to chlorinate the water, and the UV portion of it will just destroy the chlorine that you’re spending money adding to the water.. The salt system is hands-down way more appropriate as it will make the chlorine for you right there from the salt that you add to the water at the beginning of the season.

I forgot to add that the giant fireball in the sky provides way more UV Than the little lightbulb will provide.

 

[Vardster]

Thank you for your responces. So we should go for the salt option rather than the ozone chlorine.

Does it matter which filter (sand/cartridge) we use? We are instaling a variable speed pump.

Also we have one scimmer but should we increase this to two for safty?

 

[Bperry]

Thank you for your responces. So we should go for the salt option rather than the ozone chlorine.

Does it matter which filter (sand/cartridge) we use? We are instaling a variable speed pump.

Also we have one scimmer but should we increase this to two for safty?

More people tend to choose the cartridge filter it seems lately but Florida builders always seem to install the smallest possible cartridge filter so if you do choose a cartridge investigate which size you should use. The sand filters are easier to clean require somewhere for you to drain backflush water, but the cartridge filters perform a little better filtering quality and you can bring the filters to wherever you have a hose and clean them there.

Also note that the salt system is still chlorine. It’s just generating chlorine from the salt.

 

[Vardster]

+1. UV/Ozone in residential pools are for algae control. Unless they deploy a tent over the pool, they do nothing to combat the FC loss from the sun, which is our only battle here at TFP. If you're properly sanitizing in the first place, there's zero need to control your algae. The typical industry practices need to battle the sun, and algae from epic failing the primary battle.

More people tend to choose the cartridge filter it seems lately but Florida builders always seem to install the smallest possible cartridge filter so if you do choose a cartridge investigate which size you should use. The sand filters are easier to clean require somewhere for you to drain backflush water, but the cartridge filters perform a little better filtering quality and you can bring the filters to wherever you have a hose and clean them there.

Also note that the salt system is still chlorine. It’s just generating chlorine from the salt.

Thanks.

How do I find out what size of cartridge we should go for? We are installing a 28x16 rectangle pool, depth of 3.5ft to 6.6ft.

Also did you have any adivce on additional scimmers for saftey?

 

[Newdude]

How do I find out what size of cartridge we should go for?

How much crud falls in the yard ? What's the perimeter and beyond look like ? Normally we'd say 400+ sq ft to ensure it only needs cleaning once a season, but your season is so short, you could likely get away with 300s.

Also did you have any adivce on additional scimmers for saftey?

That's really not a concern. Yes it's possible that somebody gets stuck in the one skimmer, but so is winning the $ 1.5 billion powerball lotto. You're 100s more times likely, if not 1000s, to slip and fall on the way to the pool and break a hip. But that thought never crosses anyone's mind.

You want 2 skimmers for function, not safety. If it removes a 1/bazillionth chance of a suction hazzard, that's just great and and added bonus. 2 skimmers gives you more chance to overcome the breeze. The slightest waft will stop even the best circulation dead in its tracks. I have 2 on the same wall and this week. #1 is stuffed and next week, there is crud in #2.


It also gives you the option to shut one down if there's ever a problem, and use the other as long as you need without taking the pool out of service.

 

[Vardster]

How much crud falls in the yard ? What's the perimeter and beyond look like ? Normally we'd say 400+ sq ft to ensure it only needs cleaning once a season, but your season is so short, you could likely get away with 300s.

Please explain further. I'm not picking up what you're putting down.

We get a lot of pollen and leaves off trees in spring and fall so quite a lot of crud! We have only lived here a year and didnt have the pool so dont know how much that will end up in the pool but I expect I will be skimming multiple times a day!

My main concern is saftey for our three young girls. I want to ensure the system is safe from a pump/suction point of view. based on the setup set out above, if the skimmer they are proposing gets blocked with lots of leaves could this create a suction from the main drains? Do we need to insist on a second skimmer and does this skimmer have to have seprate piping to each other?

Finally our pool company seems to have their own like of equipment so not sure how good it is and if we have much choice. Have you heard of the equipment before?

 

[Newdude]

We get a lot of pollen and leaves off trees in spring and fall so quite a lot of crud!

Ok then go 400+ for the cart

My main concern is saftey for our three young girls

Good on you. Now repeat after me. It's not a concern. The suction pipe is 8 to 10 inches down at the bottom of the skimmer. Said pipe is 18 inches from the front of the skimmer. There's a basket in the skimmer that would probably stop any hair from going down the pipe *if* they were bobbing with their head at the skimmer opening for an extended time. *if* their hair was over 2 ft long.

Again, you want 2 skimmers, but for skimming.

if the skimmer they are proposing gets blocked with lots of leaves could this create a suction from the main drains?

Main drains should have 2, with safety covers (pretty sure in Canada too). Main drains per the way they do them now are entirely safe.

does this skimmer have to have seprate piping to each other?

Have each skimmer and the main drain have a dedicated leg to the equipment pad. That way you can shut off any of the 3 if the need ever arises.

Have you heard of the equipment before?

I have not. Can you get us model #s ? Even if we google the brand, they all have several versions and it's a big difference between them.

if we have much choice.

Some are locked into whatever their supplier can get. Some only sell XYZ because it has the most profit.

My PB allowed me to get my own equipment when he couldn't during the shortages. He credited me a SMALL amount of what I paid, and I understood. PBs need X profit for the job, and if Y of that comes from the equipment, (many charge 2x their cost), they may just tack it on somewhere else. It's up to you if you can accept that, or take whatever the PB has to offer.

 

[Vardster]

Ok then go 400+ for the cart

Good on you. Now repeat after me. It's not a concern. The suction pipe is 8 to 10 inches down at the bottom of the skimmer. Said pipe is 18 inches from the front of the skimmer. There's a basket in the skimmer that would probably stop any hair from going down the pipe *if* they were bobbing with their head at the skimmer opening for an extended time. *if* their hair was over 2 ft long.

Again, you want 2 skimmers, but for skimming.

Main drains should have 2, with safety covers (pretty sure in Canada too). Main drains per the way they do them now are entirely safe.

Have each skimmer and the main drain have a dedicated leg to the equipment pad. That way you can shut off any of the 3 if the need ever arises.

I have not. Can you get us model #s ? Even if we google the brand, they all have several versions and it's a big difference between them.

Some are locked into whatever their supplier can get. Some only sell XYZ because it has the most profit.

My PB allowed me to get my own equipment when he couldn't during the shortages. He credited me a SMALL amount of what I paid, and I understood. PBs need X profit for the job, and if Y of that comes from the equipment, (many charge 2x their cost), they may just tack it on somewhere else. It's up to you if you can accept that, or take whatever the PB has to offer.

Thanks for your comments, really appreciate them. Ill try and find the spec for the pump and equipment.
They have offered this extended warranty, do you think it would be worth taking it out?

EXTENDED VINYL WARRANTY - OPTION NOT
INCLUDED - ($3,499.00 + $454.87 HST
=$3,953.87)
The Heritage Warranty Program extends
comprehensive coverage on your
swimming pool. The original warranty has
coverage of two years on equipment and one year
on finishes. The Heritage Warranty Program
extends the warranty coverage on both areas to
five years for added peace of mind AND we will
DOUBLE your structural warranty for vinyl pools
from five to ten years!

 

[Newdude]

They have offered this extended warranty, do you think it would be worth taking it out?

That's subjective on the one who needs/doesn't need it.

I'm on the 'all warranties are sold at a great profit' team. Because of that, with refusing them all time, I'm up 10s of thousands of dollars in the long run if I eventually get a dud. It'll be tough to see the big picture when that happens with a refrigerator (etc) but it will be true.

I'm also on the 'warranties aren't worth the paper they are printed' on team, so full of loopholes.

But.

If you're that *one* customer with a big problem, that the company somehow can't weasel out of, warranties are the best thing ever.

 

[Vardster]

So just hear back from our pool company after asking for a quote/change in price to go for the salt option rather than the ozone option and to add a second skimmer and this was the responce. Also addes a fact sheet as to why ozone is better than salt! Please can I have your thoughts?

"The cost difference for a salt system is approximately $4,000.00. Its not a cost difference, but an add on. You still need a chlorinator because salt doesn’t work in colder water temps (start up). Your liner will be significantly impacted with a salt system and your heater life will be reduced. Any issues caused by salt are NOT covered under warranty. Please see attached the comparison between salt and ozone (you have ozone on your pool). Experience the ozone, trust my recommendation and make and assessment after your first pool season.

The sand filter is a good standard filtration system. It involves backwashing, which means you running your pool water through the fine particles of sand once every couple of weeks (more in the spring because of pollen) and discharging water to the street. Fresh water will have to be added back to the pool. You are backwashing for 30 seconds to a minute. Cartridge filter filters to a finer micron of water and the water is recycled and sent back to the pool. Screens within the filter catch fine debris. Once a month or so (more so in the spring), the filters have to be manually cleaned. This is a great filter and can be upgraded at any time.

No need to add another skimmer."

 

[Bperry]

So just hear back from our pool company after asking for a quote/change in price to go for the salt option rather than the ozone option and to add a second skimmer and this was the responce. Also addes a fact sheet as to why ozone is better than salt! Please can I have your thoughts?

"The cost difference for a salt system is approximately $4,000.00. Its not a cost difference, but an add on. You still need a chlorinator because salt doesn’t work in colder water temps (start up). Your liner will be significantly impacted with a salt system and your heater life will be reduced. Any issues caused by salt are NOT covered under warranty. Please see attached the comparison between salt and ozone (you have ozone on your pool). Experience the ozone, trust my recommendation and make and assessment after your first pool season.

The sand filter is a good standard filtration system. It involves backwashing, which means you running your pool water through the fine particles of sand once every couple of weeks (more in the spring because of pollen) and discharging water to the street. Fresh water will have to be added back to the pool. You are backwashing for 30 seconds to a minute. Cartridge filter filters to a finer micron of water and the water is recycled and sent back to the pool. Screens within the filter catch fine debris. Once a month or so (more so in the spring), the filters have to be manually cleaned. This is a great filter and can be upgraded at any time.

No need to add another skimmer."

Trust 200k+ TFP pool owners who say to stay far away from ozone. There’s no way to get around needing the same amount of chlorine with any system. Ozone does not allow you to need less chlorine and salt doesn’t affect the liner any more than anything else in the water.

If you’re handy with plumbing you can install a salt system for 1/2 of the $4000 quote the pool builder has.

With a big enough cartridge filter you’ll only need to clean it once a year. Unless you use the ozone thing, then you’ll probably have to clean it quite often cause the water will have lots of stuff growing in it.

 

[Bperry]

Trust 200k+ TFP pool owners who say to stay far away from ozone. There’s no way to get around needing the same amount of chlorine with any system. Ozone does not allow you to need less chlorine and salt doesn’t affect the liner any more than anything else in the water.

If you’re handy with plumbing you can install a salt system for 1/2 of the $4000 quote the pool builder has.

With a big enough cartridge filter you’ll only need to clean it once a year. Unless you use the ozone thing, then you’ll probably have to clean it quite often cause the water will have lots of stuff growing in it.

The cold season will require supplemental chlorination when the water temp gets below 60F but that can be done with a $5 floater in the pool or you can add it manually using liquid chlorine. No need for an expensive supplemental chlorinator.

 

[Newdude]

And if it's too cold for the SWG, a single dose of FC may last a week, or even weeks. Or weeks and weeks in Canada.

 

[Vardster]

Thanks for all your responces. So you think I should just reject the chlorine injector and add the chloring manually at start and end of season? Is this done just by testing each day?

Is the cartridge option better than the sand and if so what size of cartridge would you suggest for a 28x16 pool depth between 3.5ft and 6.7ft?

 

[Vardster]

And if it's too cold for the SWG, a single dose of FC may last a week, or even weeks. Or weeks and weeks in Canada.

Thanks for all your responces. So you think I should just reject the chlorine injector and add the chloring manually at start and end of season? Is this done just by testing each day?

Is the cartridge option better than the sand and if so what size of cartridge would you suggest for a 28x16 pool depth between 3.5ft and 6.7ft?

 

[Newdude]

So you think I should just reject the chlorine injector and add the chloring manually at start and end of season?

Yup.

Is this done just by testing each day?

Yup. Adjust the timing as the testing tells you. When the FC is mostly there a day later, switch to 3 day testing. When the FC is still mostly there 3 days later, switch to weekly testing. That's how the fall and winter will go with a stead decline in loss. For the spring it's the opposite that weekly testing doesn't cut it, then 3 day testing, then daily.

Is the cartridge option better than the sand

None is better than the other. They all have +/-s and it's up to the owner which -'s they'd rather have in order to get the +'s. For all who stick their noses up at sand filters, when in the right hands, they do just as well. I'm a hardcore biased cart guy, but fair is fair.

A sand filter even won our 1st TFP water clarity pic contest. No small feet amongst the 'enthusiasts' here.

 

[Vardster]

Yup.

Yup. Adjust the timing as the testing tells you. When the FC is mostly there a day later, switch to 3 day testing. When the FC is still mostly there 3 days later, switch to weekly testing. That's how the fall and winter will go with a stead decline in loss. For the spring it's the opposite that weekly testing doesn't cut it, then 3 day testing, then daily.

None is better than the other. They all have +/-s and it's up to the owner which -'s they'd rather have in order to get the +'s. For all who stick their noses up at sand filters, when in the right hands, they do just as well. I'm a hardcore biased cart guy, but fair is fair.

A sand filter even won our 1st TFP water clarity pic contest. No small feet amongst the 'enthusiasts' here.

Thanks.

Is it normal for pool companies to state that any issues to pool due to salt is not covered under the warrenty?

Also will the supplamentary cartridge make it easier/automatic to add chlorine when the temp falls below 60 or do you have to add this manually anyway?